But They are not playing at the level I know they can. The Five-Hundred/Taurus, is one of their biggest fumbles so far. I will be a GM convert if this kind of crap continues.

They need to do something with Mercury, something big. I would simply move it out from in between FORD and LINCOLN and do what GM is doing with Saturn. FORD has some awesome cars in Europe and Australia, and Mercury could use the change up. Ford also needs , desperately, to build those machines we known they know we want (short list includes the 427 or Interceptor, The Cobra or GR-1, and the MKR).

Believe me I want FORD to succeed, but at this point they pretty much just suck.

No insult to the cow intended, at least they give something worthwhile…like milk and hamburgers.

Our personal experiences aside. If you have CHOSEN to give up on Detroit, that is your business. I will not try to change your mind, that is up the American Automakers. But I do personally recommend that you keep an eye on Detroit in the near future. You might find your perceptions to be in error.

Again your statements, while you have a right to them, seem meant only to back your own personal conceit that you just don’t like American cars anymore. That is your own business. I won’t get into a shouting contest with you over that.

As for your feelings for Bob Lutz, I don’t know him and I doubt you do either. But from what I’ve seen, he has a plan and it is actually working, if not as quickly as some would want. I consider his efforts, thus far, to be on the money as long as the execs don’t go tying his hands while getting the line-up right.

And before you go dismissing American cars thinking that if it has “Toyota” or “Honda” or whatever on it, that is MUST be better, consider that increasingly that many of those machines are made in America by Americans, so under that thinking you may not want to buy a car at all.. because you are effectively shunning every car out there.. because America can’t make good cars. Most of the newer Toyotas and Hondas and such even Hyundais are actually developed, designed, engineered, manufactured, and assembled in America.

Detroit can compete based solely on the notion that they simply need to listen to the customers, asking Toyota and Honda owners, past and current American car owners what they want, would want, and need, and the answers are simple. If they don’t have it one the ground in America now, they can get it from oversees over here in a few months to a couple of years (as opposed to the 4-5 years it takes to actually get a new machine going form scratch). GM is doing that in spades and it shows very good results.

As for FORD, I won’t touch the mess that is Chrysler right now, the answers are staring them in the face, at every car show they roll out an easy winner, and don’t do it or do it right. Hence their failures.

The parts are just as good even better, the line-workers are more than up to it, they just need to have products that we want. That is on the execs to get right.

You have, from what I have read, chosen to believe it is too late. That I CAN NOT change. That is up to you to change yourself. I have chosen to keep my eye on Detroit, and my next car will be a domestic mark. Why? Because I know and love American cars…

BTW, if it all sounds like a plan, it is because I have been following FORD and GM since 2000 a bit more closely than the usual fan does. Using a bit of deduction, I was able to see much of what is going on in there. But without actual minutes for the meetings, I can not predict much except the long view, and to me, right now, it looks really good.

Unfortunately, it is all sounds like a plan—and I would truly like to believe as I am the last in my family of once devout American buyers that still owns an American automobile. I do not consider the 300 an American automobile as much as I do a German directed automobile in a dying lineup. We are global now, and dollars and cents count. American vehicles simply return too little on the initial investment compared to others. Having international experience I can say that the Japanese will unlikely fail any time soon as they have invested more into their brain power than we have, as Americans are simply seeking its brainpower outside the US (i.e. this very thread regarding Buick, and the one concession I will allow Lutz as he has been smart enough to see that there is nothing in the States). See, the aspect, that you have even elaborated upon is “time.” America simply does not have the time needed to do all these wonderful things. Maybe America should no longer be in the vehicle business? It is a serious question worthy of consideration.

Your view seems , to me, a bit biased. Despite history, American buyers still tell Detroit to build what we want to a level of design and quality we expect from Foreign makers, and we will give you YET another chance. GM, While not the first to step up, Chrysler was but stumbled, has made a very solid effort. Look around and you will see quite a few GMs, aside from trucks, cropping up. As the older models go the newer ones are filling in, even replacing Imports, or Foreign badges (let’s face it the Camry and the Tundra are not Imports).

The simplest way to put it is thus: America will back the home team, even when they suck. We cheer for them and back them when they give a good and even great effort. Toyota is not a home team.

Look at the 300. That thing is everywhere. Where’s the Avalon? Detroit’s response has been to finally start building the cars we want, looking very directly at Foreign makers or building what they were known for and doing their best to get it right. It may take a few tries, but Like or else, we the driving public are willing to give Detroit time and money to get it right. The turn around will likely take a decade or more, but GM shows that it will happen, like it or else.

AS to the mid-sized family and Compact car segments, Japan is going to face a serious threat from GM (FORD and Chrysler if they can ever get the heads out their bunghole). The attack has yet to really begin, but GM has proven they can fight for customer loyalty and win, even with a hideous and boring cow like the Malibu (The new one is just amazing the change being made).

In only the last few years, Detroit has really started to come back. What took decades to really screw up, Could take only a relative few years to fix. It’s too soon to pass judgment, I think. Really look at the whole picture, not just the vague statistics, but what is really going on out there. You might find that your view might be in error.

Dying loyalty? Not really. People just needing a new car but Detroit wasn’t making what the customer wanted. Toyota can claim that the Camry is and American car, and it technically is, but Toyota is still a Japanese company and that is what is going to damn Toyota in the long run. Not today, not tomorrow, but maybe 10 years from now Toyota will start decline and fall off as America looks for something more than an appliance.

I won’t deny that Detroit as a lot to prove. Being as good as the competition is not good enough, they have to be altogether better from now on to make any headway. That will take a bit more time that they buy with every new model that hits a base run. However, Detroit still is the hometown team and right now GM is the Hometown Hero.

As to re-badging… No one is going to buy a “Holden”. No one knows what the deuce that is. But they do know what a Pontiac GTO is… or rather should be. It failed not because they didn’t sell it as a Holden, but because it just didn’t live up to expectations. That will change, as they look at their missteps and work to not make the same error twice. That will never change because we are not Australian, European, or Japanese. We a American and we have our own car culture which is not the same everywhere in the world. Some areas have cars that could work if re-worked.. Or in the case of the G8, made to fit as many markets as possible, a fault of the GTO costing it performance, value, and sells.

Re-badging is here to stay, and it will predictably become more sophisticated and frequent. Especially in a world market were one car might have several incarnations in a dozen different countries.

Back to the Thread subject, If the dealers say they can’t sell it, that’s okay. Older buyers love their boring FWD machines. Probably the last car they will ever buy. That’s fine. Younger buyers will go to other divisions for the attitude they want in a car. If Buick turns down the Statesman, then it might work with another division, or just stay in Australia. GM is changing with the times and the divisions are becoming more focused and “on task”. I would love to see a New GNX… But we know that that is very unlikely to happen.

In short, Buick dealers made their choice. Detroit will fight back. I have nothing more to say right now.

What GM is becoming, and I’m fine with it, is a car company that is far more dependent on outside sources to provide their car lineups (the truck division is the exception). What GM cannot change, no matter how good a fast study they might be, is the perception that owners, and potential customers have of their automobiles. The downfall of the American automobile started decades ago when the unions were not addressed properly, and in the mid-seventies when American car companies had no clues, and in some case, no intentions of addressing real-world needs such as the EPA, while foreign companies did. Another incredibility stupid American car company sales philosophy is the move-up buyer, where the American car companies gets them young, and then convinces them that a move-up is how the car world works—it doesn’t, and they are paying the price for misreading the buying public. There is a dying loyalty to the GM lineups as the populace they once revered them has either moved on, or are no longer driving. There is simply no need for some the of redundant GM divisions—none whatsoever. I’d be much happier simply waking into a GM showroom versus a Pontiac, Cadillac, etc. showroom, and seeing what there is for sale than I am with the current situation. If GM said we sell Holden, I say more power to them, and kudos for being smart enough to address the real issues of automobile manufacturers today than trying to convince that what I’m looking at is really something else that has been altered to try to convince me I’m not.

As to GM’s redundancies, that’s old hack. What’s new is that the company has some very good, even great platforms to base their offerings on. They mean to replace everything given time with new better machines, more than a few not offered in America before. If you’re complaint is aimed at the fact that GM doesn’t toss money out the window to develop totally new machines for each and every market and region of the world, then you’ve been heard F451.

But that complaint is a rather short sighted and self-serving. As I said just before, it’s a total waste on money to develop new vehicles when it is far less expensive and expedient to take a car that already exists in.. Australia, “Land that never gave up the muscle car”, and use it over here. The Previous Holden Manaro (sp?) was, at best, a hasty “graft”, poorly adapted and over-priced due to being available in only one trim level, fully loaded. Then there was the styling…

GM is nothing if not a fast study… when it has to be. I can’t speak for Bob Lutz. But he seems to have his head on straight. All one really has to do is look at Saturn to see that “redundancy” does work. For Pete’s sake, they didn’t even bother to rename the Astra…

Also fitting the style of a platform to match a division is always more cost effective than just scratch building a new vehicle every time… and GM does not need to be tossing money out the window now or ever. You may be thinking of FORD in that… A certain bull named car comes to mind. and FORD does have strong products worldwide begging o be brought to the US.

That said You may be stuck in a time warp circa 1980-1992 or so. GM was really bad about their clones, but what made it bad was those cars really did suck. These however don’t.

Will GM shave over one more division? I think so. Saturn can handle the near luxury component as well if it has to. Pontiac needs street cred after losing the Firebird, the Feiro, and the lackluster GTO, but that won’t be a problem, Chevy is the “bread and butter”, GMC handles trucks while sharing with Chevy, and finally, Corvette COULD predictably be spun off as it’s own division within 10 years.

If Buick can not or will not be brought up to speed, then it will be parked next to Oldsmobile.

CTS DRIVER: you’re right, the Grand National is the only Buick that I can honestly look fondly on in the past few decades. Pathetic.

Jon.

I’m very convinced that the only reason GM spent so much time and energy pushing the benefits of front-wheel drive over rear-wheel drive cars is because they saw front-wheel as an emerging trend and built factories that were only capable of building front-wheel drive cars. And why aren’t there more manual transmissions available from GM? While I won’t go so far as to suggest that almost every car sold by GM is exactly the same, most people would have to agree that most of them follow a startlingly similar formula. I dunno, maybe it’s because GM figured out how to build the perfect car, and decided all of their cars should be built that way.

Younger more active luxo buyers will go for Cadillac anyway. Use that platform for the Bonneville replacement, or is it sharing with the Impala’s new RWD platform? The Statesman could do as the new DTS.

If Buick dealers don’t want a new Roadmaster, that’s their business. We can always buy from another line-up.

Many RWD cars developed and designed in the last 3-5 years are just as good in FWD situations, and depending on who you ask, some may say better than FWD. With all the stability, traction, and other controls on today’s RWD cars, there’s no reason to say they can’t handle snow or rain.

Kill Buick off, by the way.