Yea, thanks congress…

I love how our government thinks we’re too stupid to pick out a car, or pay for our own gasoline. Mommy-state, “No son, I don’t care if you make two hundred thousand a year, you cannot have that car, it doesn’t get good enough gas mileage.” Look at Europe, you can either have safety or fuel economy, pick one.

1> The study assumes the costs will be spent to comply with the requirements by 2015. That’s highly unlikely. It’s often cheaper to pay the CAFE fines than to comply with them. Though I’m certain you’ll see progress towards compliance, it’s also highly unlikely (if not impossible) you’ll see 100% compliance in just 6 years. So those costs will be spread over a longer period of time.

2> The study assumes that the fleet breakdown will be roughly the same. The primary reason the Big Three have such a larger hurdle to surmount isn’t because their “vehicles are more inefficient” as this article asserts, it’s because their MIX is skewed towards more inefficient vehicles — i.e. Trucks and SUVs.
As the Big Three has produced a FAR larger percentage of Trucks/SUVs than the foreign competition their CAFE average is significantly less. As the market moves from fewer and fewer Trucks and more and more cars, the CAFE average of the Big Three moves rapidly to the right without them actually spending a dime (though they do lose the profit that trucks made). And we’re seeing that already today in a huge way.

@kagon

Look at all these guys driving Hummers/Escalades(never seeing offroad action)…people are not smart enough. You get 8 mpg. Then people complain how expensive gas is….We need a moron tax like this.

Europe pays $8/gallon…almost no Hummers there.

Anyone know where the money for the fines will go?

To some government cause you do not agree with, that is how America works boy.

Welcome to the Nanny State.
Fascism will soon rule.

Well there’s a surprise! The lack of investment in cars over the past 10 years is going to hurt them now. Serves them right.

this is stupid. Why is the government being so mean? Just require a cap of 200 hp on gas engines. that’s enough for anybody. if yoo need more than 200 hp, it has to come from batteries.

@get real
the Celtics will soon rule.
just like the patriots
just like the red sox
just like Harvard

kagon, economy or safety? Even you know that that statement was bogus. Death rates are far lower on European roads than in the US and safety is not proportionate to size, check out the death rates for the Ford Explorer compared to the Mini.
Just because you can afford to be wasteful doesn’t mean you should be wasteful.

asu_lee- Well look, another guy talking out of his ass! I don’t care what you think about Hummers and Escalades, I want to be able to buy what I want, if I can afford it. I don’t want or have the need for a second party, or a penalty for making my own decisions, however naive they may be. That’s up to ME to decide my own actions, and it’s up to me to be accountable for them.

You’d be surprised at how many Hummers actually do go off-road. While you may see rappers using them for their “bling” factor or whatever, many Hummers are taken off-road. Some people may even see it as an exclusive club, but whatever you may consider, every state has dedicated clubs that do go off-road and on trails with such vehicles. Not saying that all, or even 50% of these vehicles go off-road, but I bet you’d be surprised to have me tell you that more Hummers go off-road than something you associate with being made specifically for it, like Land Rovers or Jeeps (true statement).

People are smart enough. In your opinion they may be stupid, ignorant and naive, but in mine your the one who most likely makes yourself look like an ass. It’s your kind of thinking that has caused 8$ a gallon in Europe, the kind of thinking that people aren’t smart enough. Where has it gotten your auto industry? I can tell you right now, London’s still getting record traffic.

@jayjc08 – And you are being accountable for your decisions by paying $8/gallon gas. Minimal Hummers go offroad. They don’t want to mess up their $70-90K truck…and none can hang with the Land Rovers and Jeeps anyway.

Its only costing the Big 3 more than the Japan brands because the Big 3 has put off any improvements. Chalk this one up to another bad business decision by the Big coming back to bite then in the butt. If the Big would have kept up with the rest of the world instead of producing crap they wouldn’t have so far to go to meet CAFE standards.

I dont want to see an American company fail but bad decision after another for decides leads me to think one of these companies will eventually go under (get bought out/broken up for pennies on the dollar).

“Just require a cap of 200 hp on gas engines. that’s enough for anybody” Yeah… If you want to be slow… turbo 4cyl’s is where it’s at. You get the power, boost, torque and 30+mpg. And not turbo diesels unless you want to pay $4.50+ a gallon for.
PISTONS AND RED WINGS ALL THE WAY!!!

I’m glad to see voice of reason in some of the posts.

Lets go back to the 70’s.
Japanese manufacturers would have had a much harder time to establish themseves on the US market if the US manufacturers responded to the 70’s oil crisis as they should – by building smaller fuel eficient vehicles. They chose not to. Japanese offered much lower MPGs and much, much better reliability and built quality. Consumers voted with their wallets. (read Updike’s Rabbit is Rich novel for more cultural and political reference).

Fast forward to 2008. What do we have… Ehm, Japanese and Koreans producing reliable and low MPG vehicles and, for good measure, reliable and better quality beloved trucks. GM made a sensible decision to buy a Korean Daewoo, maker of simple, down to earth, reliable vehicles. If Toyota can produce excellent cars in the US, why GM can’t? I admit, there’s more to that as a Made in Japan Mazda 6 is more reliable than a Made in USA Mazda 6.

Anyway, how many years has been a Toyota Camry the best selling car in the US? And yet, none of the US manufacturer was able to come with a viable alternative. Finally, the Malibu. Which is more European/Japanese that anyone would like to admit when not off-record. There’s a good reason it will get an Opel sourced 4-cylinder engine. There’s a good reason why Ford is bringing small cars over from Europe.

US manufacturers had 30 years to come up with the Japanese alternative. Whether they chose not to or were just not able to respond, is up for a discussion. Times are grim for the Big Three.

If the oil crisis in the 70’s enabled Japanese to establish themselves on the market, the current high gas prices can end up in they total dominance in the US. The main difference is, that now, the Japanese are on the top of their game.

“Buy domestic” campaigns will not help as, at the end of the day, most drivers will vote by their wallets. Again. The reason? US manufacturers have failed. Failed themselves, failed their customers and failed the national economy.

Im with the ‘Domestics ****ed up and coming back to bite ‘em in the ass’. AND i bet Japan and Korea arent gonna slack-off in the meantime.. By 2015 theyll still be up in the high mileage race, plus theyll have the additional cash to get them to that point. Domestics almost have to work 5 times more, just to catch up. but than again thats what happens when you slack off…..oh well im still buying a Challenger

With all the red ink Detroit is going to bleed this year they would be wise to start investing in companies that market feminine hygiene products.

europe pays 8$ a gallon.. most cars over there are compacts so they can justify that.. but here in the U.S where you see people whining for gas prices when there driving a hummer thats get like 10 miles per gallon. seriously stop complain you want better mileage get a Toyota Yaris or something.. on the other japanese cars get so good mileage cuz there light cheap and unsafe that why they con go and go without having to refuel.. stick to your european cars and hopefully you wont die from getting ran over by a semi.

“Europe pays $8/gallon…almost no Hummers there.”

Comment by asu_lee

Really? Cuz in Greece, a LOT of young guys were into the H2 and H3, and several people I know were looking at imported Caddies and H3s. In Montreal, I don’t know anyone who owned a Hummer.

1. This article isn’t about people whining about gas prices, it’s about CAFE standards.
2. The idea that domestics put off research and development is ludicrous. In fact GM spends MORE on R&D than any other manufacturer in the world. Ford and, to a lesser extend, Chrysler have also been spending the R&D money.
3. This article is misleading. The poster who said it’s the mix was correct. The domestics make more trucks. And jump on the anti hummer bandwagon all you want, but the idea that Congress lumped the 3500 series trucks in with the Cafe standards gives you an indication that they didn’t understand the core problem they were dealing with. These are work trucks – you know, dumpers, haulers, etc. Name ONE import that can do that job any more efficiently than an offering from the big 3.

I said it in another post, and it seems appropriate here. Apples to apples, domestic vehicles are every bit as efficient as any competitive offering. Compare for yourselves at http://www.fueleconomy.gov.

I’m baffled by the hooray!, Japanese, Booo!, America. Sitting at a light, let’s see… there’s a Nissan pickup proudly displaying ‘V-8′. He wanted to drag race my 4 cyl Ford Fusion, which gets 28.5 mpg. Then there was the Tundra at the next light. Oh, and look, there’s a giant SUV with a Toyota badge on it!! Those ga-zillion gray Honda minivans you see everywhere get less than 20 mpg, according to one owner I talked to. Reliable Toyota trucks? Toyota is buying back trucks because the frames rust out and they fold in half like a TACOma.
The Japanese have been spending a LOT of money researching, and erecting factories, to build big trucks and SUVs in this country. Just look around you at any stoplight. So stop telling me about how superior Japanese and German thinking is than ours. Go live there, if you think it’s so great.

kagon wrote (No. 2) I love how our government thinks we’re too stupid to pick out a car, or pay for our own gasoline. Mommy-state, “No son, I don’t care if you make two hundred thousand a year, you cannot have that car, it doesn’t get good enough gas mileage.

The caterwauling about CAFE is growing tiresome. Have you bought fuel lately? Diesel is headed to $5.00/gallon, premium is around $4.00/gallon, and even regular is approaching the magic $4.00/gallon mark. Pick-up trucks and SUVs are not selling. You can get a good deal on a Pontiac G8. However, Malibus are selling. That’s not CAFE, that’s $4.00/gallon fuel.

Fuel prices are devastating affect the auto industry. Long before the new CAFE standards must be met, the market for vehicles that don’t met them has disappeared. Navistar is shutting down the engine plant that produces diesel engines for Ford’s F-Series pick-up trucks.

The thing that I find so ironic about the new CAFE standards is that they are late to the party. The market’s response to $4.00/gallon fuel will get us to a fleet average of 36 mpg long before Government mandates.

Richard, what i’m saying is, let the free market decide, we don’t need a law telling us what we can and cannot buy. Didn’t you get that? I trust the market much more than i trust the government, I would rather have a choice to pick something like an exotic sports car or a domestic one. . .or hell how about a nice pick up truck with a decent size v-8. Granted, I don’t have to buy one, but choices come with advantages and disadvantages, If someone is willing to pay the price to fill up their shiny new car that gets 12 mpg, why do you have a problem with that? It is their money, they worked for it, shouldn’t we be allowed to spend our paycheck how we see fit?

RTT10: About safety of small cars…. That’s another American myth created to justify truck sales. Nissan Frontier is pretty safe, for example, but Yaris, new Mazda 2 or Mini are safer in most types of impact (frontal, side, etc.). Crash a Mini and crash a F150 into a concrete wall and you’ll have Mini’s driver checking on F150’s.

Small doesn’t mean cheap and it doesn’t mean unsafe. Plus, the smalls are less prone to be in an accident due to better manouverability.

Buhbye: Your four cylinder engine in a Fusion is a Mazda MZR engine. As a matter of fact, ALL four cylinders Ford Duratec engines are rebadged Mazda MZR engines. What Ford does with them is another matter….

Kitko: Crash a Mini and an F150 into a wall and, yeah, you’re right the F-150 driver might be checking on the F-150 driver. BUT, you crash that F-150 INTO the Mini and guess who’s gonna be checking on who?
While it’s true that Smarts in particular fare rather well in crash tests, there are other factors to consider. Even our own IIHS doesn’t recommend a Smart, despite the fact that they gave it top marks in impact tests. Its small size helps when it comes to damage because, as an object of low-mass, when it hits a solid object there isn’t NEARLY as much force there as when a normal size car hits a wall. And when an object hits it in Side Impact testing, it’s low-mass means that it is thrown to the side rather than absorbing the full force. Being thrown to the side is great for the car, REALLY BAD for the occupants who experience unbelievable crash forces.

Bottom Line — when hitting something else, a small car is great. When something else is hitting you, a small car is a really bad thing to be in. It’s like taking a 5-star-all-around Five Hundred and being hit by a Semi truck. All the 5-stars in the world aren’t going to proect you when you’re hit by something with MUCH more mass than you, and the way we test cars doesn’t really take that into account.

kagon wrote (No. 23): … let the free market decide, we don’t need a law telling us what we can and cannot buy. Didn’t you get that? I trust the market much more than i trust the government, I would rather have a choice to pick something like an exotic sports car or a domestic one. . .or hell how about a nice pick up truck with a decent size v-8. …

Free-market nostrums aside, kagon, what you don’t seem to get is that the American, Japanese, and most German brands are mass-market products. The demand for fuel hogs has collapsed. When demand collapses, production stops. You might be able to buy a fuel hog from Rolls Royce or Ferrari, but the days of 8 mpg Cadillac, the 12 mpg Pontiac, and the 15 mpg Ford are gone whether we have increased CAFE standards or not.

The auto manufacturers need to reprogram their resources to produce vehicles that burn fossil fuels much more efficiently or that use alternative fuels. If you want a nice pickup truck, then more power to you. Drive down to your Ford or Chevy dealer to pick one up. You can get a really good deal on them now.

Richard, it’s not “free-market nostrums aside” because what you just described IS the free market. If the market for those fuel-hogging vehicles really has “collapsed” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with) and production will stop, then why do we need to government to FORCE manufacturers to get more efficient?

If 3/4 of the population can afford to buy and fuel a behemoth that sucks down gallons per mile, then let them. It’s their right to pay $1000/month for fuel if that’s what they want to do. And it’s a manufacturer’s right to drive themselves out of business if they want to keep producing 8mpg vehicles that no one wants.

If I’m a manufacturer in 10 years and I want to sell a line of full-size pickup trucks (for which there will also be demand, just less), I can only do it by also creating and selling a large number of small cars to go along with it so that my average is good. It’s absurd.

“As of model year 2006, BMW, DaimlerChrysler, Volkswagen, Ferrari, Porsche and Maserati failed to meet CAFE requirements.”

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downloader.jsp?file=/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Articles/Associated%20Files/CAFE_Fines.pdf

Ford and GM seem to comply with the current standards whereas BMW does not. Who would have thought?

SigmaHyperion you are bang on with your observations. If you sell more that 350000 trucks annually CAFE ****s you in the ass. By 2010 Ford will have a fleet of cars and small suvs that will be just as fuel efficient(or better)as Honda or Toyota but because they sell so many more trucks than the afore mentioned they will pay. Nice even playing field.

Anyone who really knows the industry would know that.

If you look just at cars, the average of all the cars GM sells is LESS THAN 1MPG less than the average of all Toyota’s cars (Prius excluded). In fact, prior to the advent of the Prius, GM would often BEAT Toyota in the average MPG of cars sold. Ford hasnt done quite that good (primarily because of the Crown Vic), but is only a small distance behind in car MPG. Chrysler is the only Domestic that is actually that far behind the competition, and they are LEAGUES behind. Big cars have become a large part of their mix and even their small cars aren’t that efficient.

All the talk of the Domestics as a whole being less efficient is a gigantic load of crap. Their average is worse solely because they happen to make a lot of trucks that people want (or at least wanted). People wanted them, someone was gonna make ‘em, and it just happened to be them and not Honda. Their averages will quickly go up as people don’t buy their trucks and buy their cars instead… as long as they can get people to consider their cars anyways.

Whoops. Previous post was supposed to be in response to Nitehawk, Bubs slipped one in on me.

@ SigmaHyperion,

You are right. However, I think the problem is more insidious in that the automakers believe it is always cheaper to pay the CAFE fines rather than comply when they pass their costs directly to the consumer. The cost per vehicle is negligible anyway.

asu_lee- I could care less if a Jeep or Land Rover is better off road than a Hummer. My point being, your full of stereotypes.

Europe pays $8 a gallon simply because they’ve put up with it. They’ve put up with everything from a mad dictator who doesn’t even fit his own ideals, to having to own a liscence to own a T.V., to taxes and penalties on everything.

You may not realize this, but when penalties are placed on an act or object, you’ll often times see that action increase in occurrence. Why? Those penalties are making up for their consciousness. A great book to read, one that autonut also recommended although I had already read much of the book, is Freakonomics, goes over quite a bit of that.

If you feel like we should have penalties on everything done wrong, then be that way. But don’t even consider penalizing my choices; their best left up to me. Also, if you really want to believe that demand has driven gas prices up thus far, then you can continue thinking that way. But a question for everyone; do you honestly believe that demand for oil has gone up nearly 20% in a month? Part of the reason why diesel is so high is because of heating oil production in the winter, but regardless nobody (no, not China either. If you’d like, go look at my past posts with all work cited) is using diesel up in the unprecedented amounts that we’ve seen. Same goes for gasoline. Hey, I’m guilty too for participating in some rich companies “agenda” if you want to consider it like that, but I contribute in the least amounts possible; bike four miles a day, contribute to some of my own power source. But not because of the point your trying to prove, simply not to fund an organization that I feel isn’t being honest. I think departing from everyones frustration, we all feel like we’re being lied to.

kitko- Just to add a quick mention, I remember when the Japanese cars came out, they were very comfortable. Up until then, the Big Four (or Three, if you want to consider AMC’s demise) had never cared too much about comfortable seats, layouts and driving. Sure, they were great on straight highways for short trips, but after a while you’d get a kink in your back, and were horrible in stop and go traffic.

However, most of those small cars that you mentioned are only safe because they don’t have crumple zones, but instead are deflected off the impact. Like already mentioned, the Smart car will survive a crash sound, but the low mass, no crumple zones and the tall height will fling you around at about… 40 g’s.

A guy recently bought a Smart here, I see him riding it up the road daily… pretty neat car, I really wish they didn’t tone it down however, and it sure is a bit… noisy.

I feel the big three were influenced by the oil companies because they did very little to improve fuel economy. To raise cafe standards was going to happen sooner or later cheap gas is in the past. I don’t feel this is control by the gov this is a necessary step to move our country forward. Being in the military and when I see civilian hummers on the road it makes me laugh. These vehicles belong on the battlefield not at the supermarket. The people who buy these type of vehicles should not complain because have increased demand for oil.

Sounds like someone might have read a statistic as is, and not taking into consideration. Is this assuming that the Vette and Viper are going to upgrade their engines to the point that they keep their power but add efficiency?

CAFE is necessary. Like it or not, absolute freedom without regulation leads to extremes that at first may seem fruitful in the grand scheme of things but in the end lead to elastic band whip lash that hurts many, suddenly.

Had CAFE been in effect for the last two decades with minimal incremental increases things wouldn’t be as dire as they now are. People are losing jobs at unacceptable rates because of the accelerated whip lash effect.

The similar effect in the banking industry is not to be ignored. No regulation in crooked derivative based investments has been working wonders in good times but when tides turn the results are catastrophic.

Some rules are necessary to control excess, good or bad. Booms and busts are the wrong way to progress.

I don’t see CAFE as having much to do with oil price, but it may have more to do with reliance on oil. I agree that there is no reason in the year of 2008 that cars are not produced with more mpg without sacrificing a lot of performance. It’s always been “bigger is better.” Bigger cars are usually heavier, sacrificing mpg. There is also a chase for the most hp, fastest cars between automakers. While that is all good for fun and giggle, average car buyers aren’t going to buy a car with the most hp. If that’s the case, there is no need to offer a lesser engine in any model. One engines fits all, and it’s the biggest baddest V8 available. The truth is that automakers decide what we buy, and for a long time, they focused on performance. It’s time they start looking into fuel efficiency, even if it means the government has to be a “nanny” as some called. Reliance on oil has implication on the economy and even national security. It’s time to “cut back” reasonably instead of asking “why we don’t have $2/ gal gas to fill up my shiny Hummer.”

2008 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3 V8: 14 City 20 Highway
2008 Toyota Sequoia 4.7 V8: 14 City 17 Highway

2008 Chevrolet Malibu 2.4 4cyl: 22 City 32 Highway
2008 Toyota Camry 2.4 4cyl: 21 City 31 Highway

I fail to see the problem here.

The great thing is that we have this debate. The bad thing is that it should have taken place years ago at much higher levels. Apparently, nobody up there had the guts.

impulsive
good point

jayjc08
TV Licence in Britain is used to finance the national broadcaster – the BBC, that is the largest, most popular media organization in the world. WIth the largest coverage. And with the best website. It gives us the Top Gear, the best and most popular car TV show in the world. That’s where the money go. Plus, there are NO commercials on the BBC (BBC World is different business) and you can’t imagine how great it is to watch TV without getting annoyed every 10 minutes:-)
The last time I checked people in the US still had to pay their taxes and not everybody is allowed to get a passport. On the other hand, I can travel around Europe WITHOUT a passport and getting one is a matter of filling in an application.

olds307
do we really need to get into asking how accurate are manufacturers’ numbers? Jaguar lied about the top speed of the E-type, Chevrolet lied about the 0-60 time on of the special edition models (it turned out you’d have to make one shift WITHOUT the clutch to achieve the claimed acceleration). My experience with European and US car is that their mpg numbers are little too more optimistic. Japanese tend to be more accurate.

kitko – those numbers are not from the manufacturers.

Kitko — In the US, Manufacturers aren’t allowed to provide their own mileage figures. They are provided by the EPA (a federal government organization), and are a result of their tests, which are exactly the same for every single vehicle.

kitko- True about the TV License, only an illustrative point. Regardless, you have to have a TV license, which in my opinion is a bit ridiculous when you have to have that, and any bills that come with it. But you only need to look further to London’s traffic system and all the possible woes, fees and silly laws that occur there. If you want to include taxes as a penalty, I couldn’t even comprehend some of the taxes that the government can come up with in areas that I have lived, as well as the taxes in much of Europe.

Gotta wonder if our elected officials are on the take from Japan Inc.

If you slow down you use less gas. Of course that doesn’t apply to city driving, but my car, on the highway at 60MPH gets 28 MPG, at 75MPH gets 20 MPG, and that’s a 27 year old V8 full size Oldsmobile sedan.

Hi My Name is _________ I like to buy whatever I want whenever I want. I don’t care about how much fuel I consume or that it matters that I may help the reason for higher oil prices, the fact remains that I’m happy and that satisfies me. Even though I share this world with xxx,xxxx,xxxx,xxxx, amount of people I simply don’t care, because its all about WHAT I WANT!!!.

Sincerely,

The American People.

Yes Zo0M 6 Zo0M, Heaven forbid people should choose a car that makes them happy, nooooo, lets force them all to drive economy cars because people are crying that the sky is falling and big bad global warming is going to kill us all unless we change, oh wait, global warming is a fake, just like when people believed in global cooling or all the other scares that are used to make people do what other people want.

Whatever happened to global warming? All of a sudden, 3 months ago the media went silent on it. Is it going to be like the Atkins diet?

CAFE is a bit too much too late if you ask me! Just a result of the lack of oil caused by increasing war costs!
GM will not loose 15 billion, they will increase the cost of the cars to make up for it… Easy as that! MSRP might not go up, but I can see service pricing going up and spare parts becoming more expensive! That’s what happened in Europe when the EU imposing “Euro” emission laws. We now pay ****loads of money and the cars’ reliability has gone doooown… The more “economical” (read: diesel) the car is, the more money you pay for spare parts and mandatory service visits required for you to keep you warranty!
I don’t want to sound like a “prophet” or anything, just wanted to remind the US guys that we Europeans went through something similar, and it’s not funny…

Deanster; Climate change hasn’t gone away, it’s just that the average person has about the same attentions span as a 7 year old with ADD, and if climate change doesn’t happen like in The Day After Tomorrow with all the special effects, Joe Average loses interest.

Even the government isn’t a fan of domestic automakers lol Honestly, there isn’t even anything appealing from domestic automakers for me in the 40-50k range. Plenty of choices from Europe and Japan that I like.

Buenos, climate change is not real, you see the Earth goes through periodic warming and cooling trends

What do texans know about the outside world anyway?

Besides, those horrible more economical cars that government regulations force you to drive today are sooooo much worse than those ultra-safe, ultra great-driving and handling pre-1973 cars that you all hanker after so much.

LaCaLover, I know more about the outside world then you obviously, since you believe everything your told instead of seeing if other people, like people with degrees in climatology have to say about global warming. Many state climatologists say that man made global warming is bunk, maybe you should read a book called The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming.

Who was talking about global warming?

NoNameDenton, so the earth going through periodic warming and cooling trends (which would change the climate) would not constitute climate change?

You may think people in Texas are stupid, but I know what you mean. By the way, if we in Texas are stupid, why is it we have never had rolling black and brown outs like in California, and why is it affordable to live here as compared to California.

That would not change the climate since it is the core of the Earth that heats up and cools down periodically

Supply and demand, lots of people want to live in California which makes it expensive.

That explains why so many people are moving out of California because it is too expensive to live there.

Its the illegals leaving that is why the cost of living is rising

Whatever you need to delude yourself into thinking

I wouldn’t leave California for somewhere cheaper even if I were destitute. The best places to live in the world are always the most expensive.

Whatever you want to believe

Supply and Demand has TWO portions to it, you know…

Just because home prices skyrocket doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a boatload of people that want to live there. It could also mean that Supply is constrained.

California’s problem isn’t so much Demand, only 3 of the Top 100 fastest growing counties are in California — that’s as many as Minnesota, and Georgia of all places has TWELVE on the list. California’s problem isn’t Demand, it’s a very tight supply. There’s not a lot of new homes being built and there’s very few on the market within reasonably commuting distance of where people want to live. That causes prices to rise.

As a point of fact, Denton County (where I presume “NoNameDenton1″ is from) has been one of the Top 5 fastest-growing counties in the Nation for the past several years.

deanster- There’s been a HUGE amount of advertising just recently in my area about “saving the planet” and “GLOBAL WARMING”. I thought it had gone silent a while ago too, but oddly enough it’s back on television every second, about GLOBAL WARMING.

Next option with short attention spans is brainwashing to get it stuck in our heads. GLOBAL WARMING.
.
.
.
.
GLOBAL WARMING.

Global warming is a sham…is a natural geological cycle that could begin to reverse itself over the extent of a few decades

^ 100% correct

Even that hole in the atmosphere is mysteriously fixing itself on its own

Hey noname, the reason Texas doesn’t have rolling blackouts is Enron isn’t in charge of the grid. That was the whole cause back then, IIRC. Seems strangely like something that is happening today, but I can’t seem to put my finger on it…

NoNameDenton1 wrote (No. 70): Even that hole in the atmosphere is mysteriously fixing itself on its own

No, that is completely incorrect. The hole in the ozone layer is being fixed by the global switch from the chlorofluorocarbons which caused it. Don’t believe it? Go into any store that supplies refrigerants and try to buy R-12 or R-22.

As for global warming, it is real and it is not the consequence of natural climate cycles. Natural climate cycles require millennia to manifest. During that time, life on the planet has time to adapt to the changing climate. However, this man-induced global climate change began about 100 years ago and is proceeding rapidly. There is little time for life to adapt to the changes.

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming is a political screed, not a science book. That’s why it is promoted in Human Events, but not in Scientific American.

Actually, the guy who wrote that book briefs the US Conress and EU parliement on the issue of global warming, plus the Scientific American is run by politically motivated scientists who also discredit scientists who believe in intelligent design, nice smoke screen though. And I read the article on the ozone layer fixing itself and even scientists can not say why it is fixing itself as fast as possible, so stop spreading lies.

The whole R-12 thing is a scam, because DuPont’s patents ran out on it, so they conspired the whole scam so that they could collect royalties on R-134a.

Richard- If you’d like to believe that, then be my guest, but there are also similar events recorded in human history, and I’m not talking about a few thousand years ago. There was warming on an even quicker and unusual scale for periods lasting short decades in the 1700’s, some of the mid 1800’s and now. However, something that is fact that neither of us can argue is climate CAN change weather in a period we’re talking about, a few hundred years. Species ARE wiped out because they cannot adapt to past climate changes quickly or effectively enough. You see this indoctrination as global warming, I see it as a way to control supply and decision.

Lots of errors above.
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1) The CAFE requirement legislated is for all vehicles sold per year, not by individual OEM’s. i.e. GM does not have to meet a 36 mpg requirement.
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2) Individual vehicles have to meet specific CAFE requirements by footprint.
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So GM does not have the overall CAFE requirement of 36 mpg. Instead someone will calculate it by the sales of their vehicles every year.
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So if GM only built trucks their overall CAFE requirement would be somewhere under 30 mpg. If they decided to build only small fuel efficient vehicles their requirement would be somewhere over 40 mpg.
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This also means companies like Honda will still need to spend large amounts of money to get their small cars more efficient to meet their footprint required MPG.
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So GM has a decision to make. Do they spend the big bucks to get their big trucks to meet the new numbers or pack it in and only build small cars/trucks? Because people will still need the large trucks I forsee only GM and Ford spending the big money on trucks and prices to go up somewhere north of $5000. With no competition they will get the money but volume will drop hugely. What will happen is a new class of truck that is smaller, lighter but still have the basic load/towing capability of the 1500 series truck today will be developed. All fullline manufacturers will offer this smaller truck.

In the end “IF” gas continues to cost more, the CAFE average will be more quickly met than anyone realized. The consumer will buy the smaller more efficient vehicles and the average US fleet fuel economy will rise by the volume mix alone. Sure the government has footprint requirements but the basic law signed in by our congress just states 36 mpg, not how to get there. The footprint numbers were estimates to get their.

Richard, at out local science institute (Cranbrook, Michigan) they have a graph of the temperatures back over many years. It shows all kinds of ups and downs in global temperatures. It has been there for at least 20 years so it was there before all this global warming stuff. In fact I think it was put up when all the scientists were worried about global cooling (remember that?).
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Anyway it goes over how the global temps are always changing due to 3 factors. One is earth tilt, which changes over time. One is average distance from sun, which changes over time, and I forget the 3rd. Anyway these 3 variations occur independent of each other and cause wide swings in temps. If all 3 occur at once the earth is warmer. If all are at the other end we have a cooler earth. In between we have all kinds of temperature swings. Right now we are coming out of what they call a mini ice age that has been going on for hundreds of years.
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So I do believe we have global warming, however I am not sure how much man is causing it. I do believe we should do as much to minimize our impact on our earth as possible but doubt we can do anything to stop what is happening.

Don’t never try to judge me dude
You don’t know what the **** I’ve been through
But, I know something about you
You went to Cranbrook
That’s a private school
What’s the matter dawg, you embarrased?
This guy’s a gangsta? His real names Clarence
And Clarence lives at home with both parents
And Clarence’ parents have a real good marriage

This guy don’t wanna battle, he’s shook
Cuz there ain’t no such things as half weight crooks
He’s scared to death, he’s scared to look
In his ****in’ yearbook
**** CRANBROOK!!!

lol

^^^ WTF? I leave for a week and now there’s poetry on here?

Who is the RETARD that said freedom leads to extremes and we need government control? ABSOLUTE POWER leads to extremes. If some idiot wants to buy a Hummer, than they can buy it, it’s none of your damn business. I would personally never buy a POS SUV, but that’s me.

CAFE regulations are inconsequential at this point. With $4/gallon large cars and trucks will impersonate dinosaurs faster then dinosaurs could themselves. If gas will be $6-7 in 2012 CAFE regulations will be achieved by all manufacturers very early (say 2012).
The government actually failed to smooth transition with regulations and taxes 3-4 years ago when prices started to climb up. Now market will take care of our national wastefulness. The same cast of character who is deploring government intervention will be demanding intervention to lower the cost of oil.
There is Hungarian expression: **** in one hand wish into another; see which one fills first. We’ll be floating in **** before price of oil gets back to $100/barrel ($3.75/gallon price point).

jayjc08 wrote (No. 75): … There was warming on an even quicker and unusual scale for periods lasting short decades in the 1700’s, some of the mid 1800’s and now. …

You are getting several events connected to the Little Ice Age confused. This was a traumatic period of Earth’s history. It began long before the 1700s. I suggest that you do a little research on the period prior to further commentary.

carstuff wrote (No. 77): … Anyway it goes over how the global temps are always changing due to 3 factors. One is earth tilt, which changes over time. One is average distance from sun, which changes over time, and I forget the 3rd. …

With all due respect, this is absolute nonsense. Is this what they teach you at Cranbrook? Let’s take a few things in order:

1. There are indeed variations in the Earth’s surface temperature. For the past 100 years, those variations are superimposed on a general upward trend.

2. The Earth axis tilt has not changed significantly in millions of years. One of the obvious consequences of the axis tilt are the locations of the Arctic Circle and Antarctic Circle. From the nearest Pole to one of these circles, there is 24 hours darkness during winter and 24 hours of daylight during summer. This gives rise to the seasons. Without the tilt, the entire surface of the Earth would have 12 hours daylight followed by 12 hours of darkness year round. There would be no seasons. We would have 365.25 days of temperate weather each year.

3. The Earth has an elliptical (oval-shaped) orbit about the Sun with the Sun at one focus of the ellipse. In the Northern Hemisphere, we are closer to the Sun during the Winter. The Southern Hemisphere is closer to the Sun during the Summer which they experience at the same time as the Northern Hemisphere’s Winter.

Are you guys serious? Now we’re debating the earth’s climate cycle’s? Where is Al Gore? I want to kick him in the nuts for starting this BS.

125,000 for high gas prices “social engineering”.
196,000 for “global warming” “social engineering”.

nuff said

‘roadrunner’, you stupid ****wad, go back and read my last post … I gave you a clear example of why freedom leads to extremes … do you understand what you read or do you only see what you ignorantly disagree with, RETARD?

Why are banks essentially insolvent/bankrupt? Why are they crying now to have someone/anyone help them stay afloat by buying up equity stakes? Why do the central banks have to waste taxpayer money to lend to the failures? Unrestrained greed needs to be kept in check at ALL cost. Go back and read, sheep-raping ****face.

Where in my post did I state Hummers were disallowed, ****ing RETARD? I always knew you were an imbecile but this cements your coffin shut permanently.

Dude, you are so much of a moron I can’t even begin to explain it to you. You really think that having the government control your life FOR YOU is the best thing? What a loser. It’s not my fault your not man enough or responsible enough to make your own decisions.

I am more than you in every way, ****wad … idiots like you are the reason why your country is a failure with the worst to come. Learn some reading comprehension skills ****-for-brains … go back and read my two posts again and again … maybe you can get some help to better understand … you are a waste of life, RETARD.

Richard, I notice you did not touch my comments, were they too close to the truth and too logical for you?

NoNameDenton1 wrote (No. 88): … I notice you did not touch my comments …

You mixed a nutty idea like no global warming with an even nuttier idea like intelligent design and want me to comment on it? You believe that Scientific American, a science magazine founded in 1845, is a screed of the Lunatic Left? Is that your idea of truth and logic?

When you go for your flu shot next Winter, remember to tell the nurse that you want the vaccine to combat the intelligently designed virus rather than the evolved virus.

Adpation is not evolution genius and Scientific American has become part of the Lunatic Left, why don’t you read a book (that is like a long magazine, only on one subject and usually one or two authors) on who science has become politicized.

NoNameDenton1 wrote (No. 90): Adpation is not evolution …

It’s spelled adaptation. It is the definition of evolution.

No, adaptation and evolution are two different things, maybe you should buy a dictionary or science book. By the way, DNA proves that one species can not become another.

NoNameDenton1 wrote (No. 92): … DNA proves that one species can not become another. …

You have it exactly backwards. DNA is the explanation for evolution. It is a long, extensible, and rearrangeable molecule. DNA changes. Most changes are, however, insignificant. When adaptations in an existing form are expressed in its DNA, then there is a new form. In this case, the DNA change is significant. This is evolution.

richard- No, I AM NOT talking about events leading up to the mini-ice age and cooling/heating around 800 to 600 years ago. I am talking about recorded anomalies that happened in the early to mid 1700’s that were predominately not related to the “mini” ice age in medieval times. Not to be offensive though, but most of the information and clauses you are using for global warming seem to come from an 8th grade text book. Adaptation may lead to evolution, but the thing that not even Einstein could comprehend is the Earth without intelligent design. Whether or not you want to debate it, scientists have been very wrong before, and I have yet to get an explanation for the originate gases that supposedly formed our existence, and the very, very, very small chances of creating life if you get to that stage. And once again, whether or not you want to debate it, just be pucking happy to be alive, ty =)