What

This lawsuit is a public nuisance.

Exactly novicus, America isn’t polluting Southeast Asia is. Bunch of dumb****s, god damn liberals and hippies.

What would be funny is if those manufactures now banned any type of allocation of their cars to California. Let’s see how fast that lawsuit would drop.

What the hell?!? So how are we supposed to move around here? This is the type of BS lawsuits that need to be killed, permanently.

I really think they should do that. Stop sending them cars. California’s economy would plumet, then they’d rethink this rediculous lawsuit.
Clearly there must be other ways to address this issue. The money the state puts in to taking them to court and all, could instead, be put toward further research on alternative fuel technologies.

Oh boy, this is Hyundai’s big chance!
Chery, make your move!

So this is gonna mean that global warming goes on trial, right?
Reminds me of Crichton’s “State of Fear.”

Or this will just get thrown out. Ridiculous.

My guess is it’s politically safer to sue car companies than to sue the voters who choose to drive the cars that contribute to global warming. Why not just have a pollution tax just like they do a luxury tax on high priced vehicles? I would actually like to see a pollution/heavy vehicle tax so that there would be less soccer moms driving SUVs and minivans.

You go California! The rest of America will thank you in the future, it’s not their fault they are ignorant

Oh, and how is taking money from the Big Six going to help them with R&D for better emissions?

James, why are Americans so against anyone intelligent these days? Like its a crime to be smart all of a sudden

I’m not even going to try this one. Wow.

because you are suppose to think with your gut! not with your head. Americans are not a fan of facts you know.

They would probably loose more money by not selling cars in California than they would going to court and loosing.

Like it or not California defines many aspects of the U.S. auto market. California deals with congestion, over population, and pollution in ways that most other states can’t comprehend. California has the “consumer power” to cause drastic changes in the U.S. auto market – it’s done it before.

However, a lawsuit against the manufactuers is not the right way to go, especially when a good chunk of its citizens have been “accomplices” in the alleged offense. Change the laws, don’t sue after the fact.

Hahaha, the judge is going to have a good laugh at this. whats next, we going to sue the government for stupid toward the american people.

You guys do realize that this is actually a very smart move on California’s part. First off, it’s never been really done to this scale before so it’s getting media attention. Media attention means people are reading about/seeing it, etc. Which means their cause is getting wide out in the open to the “ignorant” American public. Secondly, you nothing is going to come of this, most likely it will be settled or something outside of court; it’s a media stunt to get on the automakers asses. They have the technology to make more efficient cars, but for some reason they’re not using it on all of their cars. So you do something like this, it gets out in the open and the automakers have no where to go now. Plus it’s a kick in the nuts to the dumbasses in office right now (AKA The Bush Administration), so it’s an all around winner. Like it was said earlier, why is it so looked down upon to be smart these days. It’s an international world people, the US of A isn’t the only country.

I’m reclaiming the word liberal, it is no longer an insult. I am a liberal in the educated informed european sense and proud of it. Quit this dumbing down of america. It’s not big and it’s not clever.

They can start by suing their own Hummer hugging governator…

Wow…

That is just stupid global warming is probably happening but I don’t think there is really enough evidence yet to prove it but I guess in California courts you don’t need that much evidence to file a lawsuit.

THREE DAYS! I MOVE OUT OF THIS RETARDED STATE OF CAL IN THREE DAYS!

Phuck California.

Give me a break, sue the man who invented the internal combustion engine, and the person or w/e that designed the earth and made it suseptible to automobile emissions.

What a waste of money and time.

I think a far more effective way in getting results, is to introduce an ‘inefficiency tax’ on vehicles with less MPG than a specified target. Make the tax go up exponentially based on the how far a car is not meeting the MPG target. Nothing motivates people and companies like getting hit in the wallet.

Thank god and good riddance to bad rubbish Ricardo Head.
California is awesome, we just don’t like dumb idiots like you. Go back to your bible classes and intelligent design seminars in Iowa you’ll be much happier ignoring the facts of modern life

they have Gas Guzzelers tax… which is what your decribing. i guess its time to bump that up. Maybe something about seating. something to discourage ppl from buying SUVs with 9 seats and filling 2 of them. there are plenty of ways to get better MPG out of the manufactuers.

It’s all about publicity. I live in CA. Most of what goes on is not a liberal or conservative thing… it’s a special interest thing. And EVERYONE has special interests.

However, I have to admit, that this is probably the boldest move I’ve ever seen by environmentalists. Suing the companies will lead to nothing, but my guess is that it will reveal two things: 1) that emissions from vehicles lead directly to forms of harmful pollutiion and 2) that major auto makers have continually lobbied against better emissions standards. And while I believe that a more market-based approach (higher gas prices, real or government induced) is ALWAYS the best way to get results, this will go a long way to educating people about what is true and false.

For example, making cars 100 mpg tomorrow is impossible, but making cars 30% more efficient in the next 2-3 years is possible.

Emissions from cars damage our environment. Emissions from U.S. cars are only a very small part of the global issue. And other such assertions.

If this suit goes to settlement, my guess is that there will be some money pumped into environmental education, raising mileage of cars and reduction of direct lobbying efforts. But, there is a good chance this will be thrown out.

Should be interesting, if, generally, a fairly frivolous lawsuit.

This is about an ambitious AG grandstanding for the media. All the Prius driving celebs will love him and host findraisers for his next statewide campaign. Never mind that it’s a stunt he’ll get his publicity.

****HEAD JACKSON, GET OVER YOURSELF.

get rid of SUVs, small cars can stay

I’ve heard it all now lol Whats next walking tax? breathing tax? living tax? thinking tax? talking tax?

It’s called a free-market system. If we shouldn’t have the right to purchase a 4 ton diesel truck to go to the supermarket, then the government should pass laws to forbit such purchases. If we don’t like those laws, then we should elect new lawmakers. It goes like that.

This makes me ashamed to say I live in California.

I thought VW already made a 100mpg car called the Lupo? is it less?

Vw doesn’t make the lupo any more.
Hey Trevor Carpenter I’m Californian and PROUD, if you don’t like it here you know what you can do….and yes it involves bible classes in Iowa

Oldsmobile does my middle name really spell ****head if you remove the hyphen? Well I never noticed duh!

So they’re suing the car makers who are partially responsible to a large minority part of carbon dioxide emmissions instead of suing the oil companies who voluntarily release all this carbon fuel into the world and make tons and tons of money off of it. And surely it isn’t smart to sue the utilities who are responsible for a much larger portion of global warming emmissions (well, and the people who use those utilities). Yes, I can see clearly how just these 6 car companies are really so completely responsible for the drastic consequences California has currently suffered from global warming.
I’m somewhat of an advocate of certain reforms to counter the possible dangers of global warming, but this certainly appears to be crack headed behaviour, even as a publicity stunt.
Makes as much sense to me as buying 3 priuses so you always have an efficient vehicle when you are at your various residences. Not that having multipe cars and houses doesn’t make more carbon emmissions and use more resources than a Prius could ever hope to preserve in it’s full life as a working car.

The 3L Lupo uses a 1.2-liter, turbocharged, three-cylinder diesel engine linked to an unusual transmission.

–from: http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mareview/mauto497.htm

Its a Diesel, and would need that clean diesel that ain’t around these parts… Even if its not made anymore, and not sold here, the article I mention is 7 years old! What does VW have these days?

haha, it does make you laugh when u read it at first

However, first off, an attorney general would never submit something like this without having some substance and reason behind it. He either knows, or has been told by his associates, that it’s got an incredible chance of going through because of reasons the public knows, such as this will draw huge media attention, or reasons we don’t know, political reasons. Theres no way an attorney general, especially of a state such as cal, is going to risk screwing up his chance for re-election or running for another spot in government by submitting a stupid ass lawsuit like this.

However, personally, i don’t think this is any where near the right way to go about this. first, in the fairly remote possibility this lawsuit turns into a major pain in the ass for the manufactures(my bets on it doesn’t ever go to court and they settle some sort of monetary deal outside of court) however, if it does go to court and the manufacures are charged, it could be the final end for domestic car manufactures. Nissan, toyota, and honda, i have no doubt, can handle something like this. Ya, it’s going to hurt them, but i don’t think a single domesitic company, at this time, would be able to withstand this type of ‘bump’ in the road. The companies extremly unstable, the stocks extremly unstable, there at there most vulnerable points, there at the bottem they’ve been in for years, attempting to restructure and re-create there companies, a hitch in it such as this i think will send them out. However, i think the possiblity of this happening is kind of slim. The solution to the problem is not suing them, it’s not hydrogen, it’s not fuel cell’s or any other alternative fuel. Oil has been along to long, is to easily accessable (ya, ya, ya, we’ll b out of fuel in 70 years my ass, if you put all the oil companies togeather, there reserves would last longer then 70 years). The answer is going to be ethenol, and hybrids, and things such as that. An average internal combustion engine is 20 percent efficient, at best, new technology will increase that to 99 percent, then it will make it even better, 6 stroke engines are already on the way making engines that are closer to 40 percent efficient. Those will b the solution, oil companies would never let something like ‘hydrogen’ or ‘fuel cells’ take over the market, neither will governments, and neither will people. People are to set in their ways. Unless a miracle ‘energy’ is created, which it very possibly could, i personally don’t believe we will be changing away from fuel any time in the next couple centuries. I think E85 is a great ’semi-alternative’ fuel. More efficient. Like they say, you can’t re-invent the wheel, just make it better

****HEAD JACKSON, you will have to excuse me, I’m a little slow. You see, I’m from the midwest and go to church so, you know, I’m not smart.

ya know wat, you might as well sue all the furniture companies for using wood in their products resulting in the clear-cutting of trees!

screw that! everybody’s sued for being human!

Why don’t the state sue Hollywood? They blow up houses, cars, etc. for entertainment purposes and contribute to the greenhouse effect.
Do you recall the Governor in Terminator- they blew up so many things, half the picture revolved around fire.
Or what about Rolls Royce, Bentley, Ferrari, Porsche- the darlings of Rodeo Drive?
Why don’t the state sue the cows that reside within their limit?
Next thing, they will sue American Airlines, Delta, etc. for contributing to the greenhouse effect.
So much BS- it’s incredible.

This is what happens when “Save the Whales”, “Save the Rainforest”, “Save our planet”, “Save the californian left hind footed monkey” groups run the state. Im gonna sue the state of California for public nuisance allowing homosexuals to roam the streets. I mean cars that go to california are already worse than cars in the rest of the US due to emission controls. Suing the companie that make cars is just rediculous.

The next step is that california will be filled with millions of 2box class cars from japan running on AA batteries…How exciting.

Must be nearing election time in Kalifornia.

I wonder if Attorney General Bill Lockyer drove to the court house to file his complaint.

Bonquisha Sheneequah is a walking paradox. He or she considers themselves an intellectual elite, as most liberals do, yet has a stereotyping name on here and has something against Christians. Because Christians from Iowa must be less intelligent than liberals in California.

Not only is this lawsuit liberal, hysterical, madness, but at it’s core I have no doubt there is a politician who is using the United States legal system to gain notoriety and fame. Just as Elliot Sptizer of NY has done, just as the DA in charge of the Duke rape case has done, and the list goes on.

I am going to sue God for putting liberals on this earth. It’s quite funny actually. A state attorney general creates a lawsuit, and the greenie weenies come running forward charging everyone is ignorant, and all this attorney general is interested in is self promotion. Let me here your war cry!!

This lawsuit should be against Toyota only, as it seems that’s all Californian’s drive,,,,,

My name only exposes your prejudices about what type of person you believe has a name like this. Yes most people assume I am black with a name like this, where does it say that I am black? That is your prejudice and stereotyping not mine.
Christians from Iowa must be less intelligent for a start they believe a book of fairy tails and they live in Iowa how stupid is that?
I’m a white Californian native, I love LA I love California, I love the diversity that you right wing neo cons can’t stand, it actually makes it a very interesting place to live.
If Ricardo Head wants to live in whites only christian only gated community thats up to him. I hope he dies of boredom.

Don’t they first have to absolutely PROVE that global warming not only exsists, but is the effect of the polutants put out solely by these companys’ products? What a complete waste of time and tax payer money.

Actually dink, I figured you were a white dirtbag. No black person would ever have that name. And by the way, oh so clever trick my friend… luring me into your trap of hypocrisy. I fell right into it! You really are smart!

Oh, and speaking of diversity, I love your acceptance of Christians. Must be diversity only means skin color, not thoughts or speech… again, another liberal trait.

I should file a lawsuit sueing the state of California for the Carbon Dioxide emissions of it’s human population.

All the carbon dioixde exhaled by the millions of Californians is a ‘dangerous threat’ that causes global warming.

Maybe I can find a judge that’ll then rule that Californians must stop breathing… to save the planet, of course.

Wow. The Governator supports the suit? What a hypocrite!

Yeah because the conservatives and the right wing fundamenatlist christians love freedom of thought, questioning the bible and different ways of living, don’t they Piablo?

Don: that’s the most rificulous idea ever. How about ALL auto manufacturers doing more to improve fuel economy, how about that? Like, for instance, mass-produce Carbon Fiber so that it becomes economically feasible to make new car bodies out of it. Less weight = less fuel consumed.

California is the promised land, it is where I shall return

ridiculous*

Damn keyboard.

I’m not the one playing the diversity card. I’m throwing your hypocrisy back in your face. And I don’t hear the conservatives or Christians crying about diversity. Religous followers by nature do not follow diversity of thought, otherwise they would not seggregate themselves to one religion, one line of thinking. But you, you are the one criticizing others for lack of acceptance to diversity, while criticizing Christians. Intellectual, no. Hypocrite, yes. How do you think the liberals of the 60 and 70s got their nick-name?? Hmmm???? Hippies?? It’s the nature of a liberal.

This whole thing is just funny
Calafornia and extemests make me laugh

James leave this website, PLEASE spare us all your racist, bigoted bull****, noone likes you here, your comments are not wanted, seriously leave this website alone you dip**** because all you say is at the very least offensive as hell.

This is a clear cut example of their being FAR to many sleazball lawyers running around loose in this world. the next thing you know the F**ing lawyers will sue ALL of us citizens for contributing to the pollution of the environment every time we take a ****… Lawyers are the problem here they should all be dumped into the North sea just north of iceland and see how well they can all swim and stand the cold.. Of course the sharks would never eat a one of them out of professional courtesy.

And i deeply respect California for this, this is a step in the right direction, hardly anyone is making any effort to get emissions down other than Toyota and Honda, so if the manufactureres cant figure it out themselves this might be what it comes down to

OHHH YEAHHHHHahahaha! “CA is the only state in the union with non-whites!” ****head you basically just admitted you are a blithering idiot, man. Must be sniffing too much smelL-A. There are plenty of equally or more diverse places than Cal, muchacho.

HAA! Looks like California must sue ALL Californians now, because each person emits 2.5 pounds of CO2 per day.
.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060920/sfw188.html?.v=1
.
Attorney General’s Suit Against Automakers Should Also Name ALL Californians
.
Humans Emit 2.5 Pounds of CO2, a Greenhouse Gas, Every Day
.
SACRAMENTO, Calif., Sept. 20 /PRNewswire/ — All comments may be attributed to John Merchant, chairman, California Citizens Against Lawsuit Abuse:
“In his latest crusade, Attorney General Bill Lockyer has decided to sue automakers, arguing they have created a public nuisance by building cars – cars which emit greenhouse gases. He’s requesting that a jury award monetary damages as well as attorney fees and costs, but he’s missing out on the really big money with this one.
.
“The AG’s complaint overlooks 36 million other sources of greenhouse gas emissions — the human beings occupying California who ought to be sued for ‘negligent breathing.’

“Californians each emit about 2.5 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2 – a greenhouse gas) every day just by breathing. If you multiply 2.5 pounds of CO2 per day by 36 million Californians by 365 days, that’s more than 16 million tons of CO2 just from breathing. Talk about a public nuisance … and don’t even get me started on the methane people produce.
.
“This lawsuit is a public nuisance. Activist attorneys general who abuse our legal system and impose a system of ‘government by lawsuit’ to gain publicity and further their own political agenda do so at the expense of the people they are paid to represent. Inevitably the costs of litigation in cases like this will be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices. Just what we all need.”

LamborghiniZ: I knew you were gonna say something like that. Know this: *every* car manufacturer is just as responsible in this mess we’re in, so don’t give me that “except xyz” bull****. Just don’t.

Phil I like you we are on the same page about california. California can crumble into the ocean as long as they move the US Bank Tower out of the state from Los Angeles.

White ? Christian ?? Diversity ?? I thought this site was a forum to talk about cars, trucks & SUV’s ?????

1c3d0g, its not bull****, and im not giving you any bull****, im stating the facts, that CERTAIN car manufacturers of asian origin whom you have an unjustified hatred towards happen to make more steps towards improving the environment than other car manufacturers of domestic origins whom you just adore, for no real apparent reason.

James, i dont care if someone was talking to me or not, racism is offensive, you’re a racist, what you say on your posts is often racist (i’ve seen it before on other articles) so if you’re going to make bigoted comments, expect for me to comment on you. knock the prejudice **** off

Oh fun fun fun…. where the hell is Renton? Is he Piablo today? I swear, all leftlanenews.com needs to get this site active and going is to post some political piece remotely related to cars.

Ok, regarding the lawsuit, you all know the bottom line is for CA to get some extra $ from some big corps. The whole thing is a big excuse…

I didn’t start it so what I say is irrelevant. Lambo its called freedom of speech, I will say what I want and I will ignore everything to have to say in response. Futile reponses as they will be. I can say whatever I want and I will. Yes you can reply, yes I can ignore it like irrelevant worthless ****.

Hey James your 1st amendment right to “freedom of speech” doesn’t apply here – it’s a private forum. Most websites would have blocked your IP address by now, but I guess LLN doesn’t have lawyers to warn them about letting racists spew on their site.

Bonquisha Iowa is a fine place with lots of people who are concerned about the environment, some of them are even Christian. If you want to rag on a state that has too many fundamentalist Christian Republicans pick IN

“Know this: *every* car manufacturer is just as responsible in this mess we’re in, so don’t give me that “except xyz” bull****. Just don’t.”

What mess? The only ones to be blamed are the _consumers_ who continue to buy big gas guzzling products that happens to bear the logo of GM or Ford.

Having lurked here for some time (posting very little) I find I have to put my two cents worth in.
I have read some interesting threads here to say the least, but this one has eclipsed most.
I find it hard to believe the degree of the hate being spewed here towards various countries, political affiliations and of all things Christians.
With all that is going on in the world today and western culture under attack, people who should be allies are here cursing each other over automotive news.
It is enough to turn ones stomach.

I have always held out hope that the now dwindling “Greatest Generation” would not be the last one, that another generation would rise up with equal resolve, and integrity and sense of selflessness and duty.
This is far from our finest hour. Winston would roll in his grave.

only in america!

Far from our finest hour indeed. Though since the arabs are the ones supplying us with the dope called oil, maybe instead of blaming the manufacturers we can find a common ground and start attacking them instead. Ha ha… wishful thinking given the situation we’re in…

I love California because the conservatives and the religious right hate it so much

Someone should sue Wyoming for having all those cattle, which emit gas into the air that harms the o-zone.

The stupid staff of California apparently has nothing much to do except find ways to milk more money out of ridiculous lawsuits. Instead of doing this, why don’t they find ways of easing traffic in their cities? California emission controls are one of the strictest in the world, maybe next time Californians should drive small electric cars like golf carts LoL!

Hal the typical pinhead, jump on others’ coat tails when they attack someone for some alleged comments that never took place. They are just mad because they can’t win. This is a car site unfortunately it has a few trouble makers, lamborghini, bonquisha hal and however wants to attack me. heh. Veda hit the bullseye, I wish car companies would stop making SUV’s period. They get in my way on the road and guzzle gas.

Btw they must not have anti flaming rules either because those three are still here. You three are not in the right so you might as well forget about that. case closed.

heaven forbid you use your brain Jesus.

Veda, nice to see you chime in finally! Even though, once again you are wrong

This whole thing reminds me of the episode on South Park where they all jump on the global warming bandwagon. It’s hilarious, pointing to the sky -”LOOOOK!! It’s GLOOOOBALLL WARMMINGGGG!!!” Hysterical non-sense.

I don’t think there is anyone who says it is NOT happening. Me, a red blooded, George Bush voting, Conservative believes there is “global warming”. There is plenty of irrefutable data to say so over the past 100 years. What I do disagree with is WHY it’s happening. It’s so easy to look at the news and see a hurricane is coming and decide, ‘yep, Global Warming is upon us!!’ It’s so easy to pin global warming on “gas guzzlers” because vehicles are so familiar to everyone. What is not familiar to everyone is the science behind it all. Actual Science. Solar radiation is the biggest factor behind atmospheric warming. Solar radiation is what causes holes in the ozone, not hair spray. What effect does the earth’s magnetic core have on ocean currents? What effect does the overall salination of the oceans have on the global weather patterns? Did you know mowing your lawn once a week for a half hour puts out more **** into the air than driving your truck all year?? Where’s the lawn mower patrol?? There is alot of bad misinformation out there. There is also alot of good information. There are ways to do your part and help the environment, but sueing the manufacturers is not the right way. Try car pooling for one. Try not leaving the computer on all night long. Try doing YOUR part, and not worry so much about others.

I love certain car manufacturers as everyone else does here… but this is a very valid case guys. Either way; this is not the end for any of these corporations.

California Uber Alles

LamborghiniZ: I don’t know where you pull your “facts”, but they’re as contorted as an asian car in a wreck. ALL car companies are responsible. Period. If you cannot even acknowledge this simple fact, then I have the perfect site for you:

http://www.turnofftheinternet.com/

The earth’s climate has been scientifically proven to warm and cool in cycles, and we are in a warming cycle. That’s it, pure and simple. And for every scientific study that shows ice caps getting smaller in one area, there is another much, much less publicized study showing ice caps increasing in another area. If you don’t know that, then you are the ones who are close-minded and lacking in sufficient intellectual curiousity — not the conservative Christians in Iowa. Cruel, idiotic, un-American attacks like that those I’ve read on this thread are always made by those who claim to be non-judgemental, openminded, and non-descriminating. In my experience, liberals are the MOST hateful, condesending, arrogant, and closeminded people I’ve ever met or heard from. Yes, Christians take absolute stands on certain issues because they actually BELIEVE in something. But, for the most part, they are also kinder, more helpful, more sacrificial in their lives and toward others than any East or West Coast lefty with a “European intellectual” superiority chip on their shoulder. A racist is NOT a Christian. And Christian influence in this country has done far less to interfer with your rights and freedoms than liberal influence, as this lawsuit so clearly demonstrates.
Global warming is nothing more than the left’s newest means to attack corporate America and the individual buying and living rights of Americans. Those who fall for it and who are so easily willing to potentially destroy America’s economy — especially when we are NOT the world’s biggest polluters — are the gullible ones, not those asking for and demanding more proof. It’s so easy to cry wolf and act like everyone else is the fool. Just like Y2K — those who believed were so right and everyone who refused to worry were blind fools. Yet, 1-1-00 came and went without a single problem. This was going to be the biggest, dealdiest Hurricane season ever, yet — I’m still waiting. It’s time for those who say they’re so smart and act so smart to actually BE smart and stop falling for the dribble your puppet masters keep feeding you.

Amen dalemf.
Now, how about we get back to cars.

I disagree with everything dalemf states and claim it is he who needs to BE smart and stop falling for the dribble his puppet masters keep feeding him. Does that make me any more right than it makes him?

On a side note:

“Christian influence in this country has done far less to interfer with your rights and freedoms than liberal influence”

Hahahahahaahahahah. Now that is funny.

Fine, YOU can walk 20 miles to work & we drive there. Damn hIppy.

Give me an example that causes your laughter, Random Jerk. Abortion is still legal, pornography is everywhere, homesexuality is pushed on us as an acceptable lifestyle, gay marriage movements are growing, TV shows are all about teeenage and premarital sex, the public and university school systems are rampant with anti-Christian and anti-right bigotry, and you continue to have the freedom to say, do, think and become whatever you wish. You’re even free to ridicule and demean anyone who claims to be a Christian. Yet, let’s see, a Christian student CAN’T pray in school, even silently, and can’t talk about the Bible with other students for fear of being suspended. A teacher dare not even suggest that evolution is an unproven theory and that students should open their minds to other possibilities — because, you know, just saying that would break the separation of church and state. In some areas, smokers — and I’m not one of them — can’t smoke on public beaches (that’s OUTSIDE, in case you didn’t know). You can’t cut down trees on your own property in many areas, or build a refinery, or drill for oil, or open a Wal-Mart, or run a business they way you want…and on and on and on. And yes, to keep it focused on cars, the left would like nothing more than to outlaw SUVs and regulate what you drive.

Funny though how Scientist/Geologists come out with these studies which are usually followed by a solution to the problem, yet polititions rather take it to their own hands and go through our court system. When will they learn.

But here is the kicker – the “Christian Right” (and I think it’s important to distinguish the “Right” and the “Christian Right”) would like nothing more than to reverse all the freedoms you list and I enjoy. If not, why are they such issues with you now? You are simply the pot calling the kettle black. Again, I am amused. I’m not even sure why I bother to write – there is no changing your mind, just as you won’t change mine.

The left as a ideology does many things that I don’t agree with. However If I had to choose I’d rather have a liberal, pluralistic, enviormentally clean society than one based on the modern day reinterpretation of a often mistranslated/rewritten book of fairy tales. A liberal pluralistic society has room for the “Christian Right” to live as they see fit, the society yearned for by the “Christian Right” doesn’t offer the same accomdations. Hence all those freedoms you list that somehow assault the “Christian Right” lifestyle.

Dalemf just because YOU don’t like things doesn’t make them wrong.

Dale I dont want to live in your narrow minded little world that believes fairy stories in book, and would rather believe in things for which there is no proof than things for which there is some evidence.
Being gay is not a lifestyle choice, I don’t see anything wrong with treating gay people as equals and giving them the same rights that I have, you obviously believe in second class citizens.
I see no evidence persuading me that creationism is more valid than evolution, but you won’t even entertain evolution as valid from the start.
I don’t want you and your kind telling me how to live.
Smoking on beaches creates litter
Cutting down trees on my property may spoil the neighborhood
SUVs are wasteful from the use of resources when they are manufactured, to the amount of energy they consume whilst being used
Schools and universitys should not tolerate the promotion of any religion on campus
Why on earth would you want a Wal Mart in your area?
It sounds like if your people were in power my rights and those of many other non-christian Americans would be severely curtailed by your bigotted beliefs and behaviour

Random Jerk — You mean like the liberal left has reversed and constricted so many of MY freedoms? So the real kicker is: you’re afraid of what we might do — meaning the Christian right is not yet interfering with your freedom, which was my point that you found so amusing — while I’m worried about what the left has already done and continues to do. And for Jesus — I hope that’s your real name — great comeback. I’m stunned by your logic.

100th comment!

MiracleGro, you prove my point. I guess you have no problem living in a liberal narrow-minded world? And I didn’t say promote creationism, did I? I said invite the kids to look at all possibilities, since nothing has been proven and there is no evidence in the fossil record to support evolution. NONE. And what about the true scientific evidence that comes out yearly to support intelligent design? Do you want to just ignore it? Is that being openminded or narrowminded — I’m probably not smart enough to know the difference. And your kind can tell me how to live, right? That’s OK. And while I think killing an unborn baby is murder and barbaric — how dare I try to do something about it. Yet you’ll stop me from cutting down a tree because it might spoil the neighborhood? That’s being civilized. And school’s should not “promote” a religion — absolutely not — but they shouldn’t “hinder the free practice of” religion, either, such as a child saying a prayer before they eat lunch. I think both parts are in the Constitution, not just your part.

dalemf has it exactly right.
Every group has its individuals that can sometimes taint the whole group. As a Christian conservative I recognize that the assorted zelots that want to bomb abortion clinics, or scream at gays etc tend to put the whole group in a bad light. But fact are, Evangelical Christianity as a whole is not out to coerce anyone into doing anything really. We prefer that what we consider to be imoral acts not get legislated into common and acceptable practice…so what? we use legal and non violent and constitutional means to go about this rather than ‘jihad’.
The left is afraid of what MIGHT happen. Ignorance and often hatred is the driving force behind the vitriolic smack from the left here. Crys of ‘fairy tales’ and ‘mistranslations’ are obvious indicators of the uneducated and fearful.
The tenants of Christianity are to not to HATE anyone. I have a friend at church that struggles with alcoholism, he is openly embraced there, as are folks of sexual addictions as well.
In any case those of you speaking from a position of ignorance on the Bible should pick up ‘Evidence That Demands a Verdict’ by Josh McDowell. He, as a shinning star law student, set out to disprove the Bible once and for all with this book. If you do not like to be challenged intellectually then avoid it at all costs.

“Christian influence in this country has done far less to interfer with your rights and freedoms than liberal influence, as this lawsuit so clearly demonstrates.”

So in the Constitution there is a right “All peoples shall drive cars” ???? Well guess what smart guy; their isn’t a right to drive a far. Its a privilege (you get a license don’t you??).

Thats some straight up dumb ****. I learned about the Constitution in like 2nd grade bro.

Dalemf; you did a half-assed job labeling lefts and rights. of course, leftist people believe in something; why the hell do you think they stand for it?

“About this law suit, if CA wants more efficient cars this is the wrong way to do it. if i want my brother to grab me a soda out of the fridge i dont hit him with a baseball bat…” – yournamehere

your example is not accurate. lets say hes made $50,000 off the butler service he offers you. then you say hes been tracking dirt in the house and needs you to pay for damages.

That would be a much more parallel situation.

I don’t want anyone with a religious agenda in power.
Dalefm you won’t even entertain evolution as a possibility will you and I bet you don’t teach it to your kids as a possible alternative to the fairy stories

Not what you “might do” but what you are TRYING to do. As if the act of trying curb the freedoms I enjoy is any different that actually doing it. Either way I have to fight for MY freedom.

May I ask, what freedoms has the liberal left stripped from you Dale? Besides the freedom to define the freedoms of others.

Damn randomjerk!!
“May I ask, what freedoms has the liberal left stripped from you Dale? Besides the freedom to define the freedoms of others.”
Very appropriately worded.
Kudos.

Jimbo – Whatim trying to say is if CA wants better cars they should help. tax breaks. incetives. funding.after this law suit what do they expect? the automakers would have less moeny to do what CA wants them to do! you catch more flys with sugar…also you example is far out there its laughable. who said anything about a butler or dirt? have you ever asked someone for a favor? asking nicely is the best way to get what you want, thats all im trying to say. stop trying to sue everyone. what is CA said they would give $1bil to the 1st car company that can sell 250,000 cars that get over 75mpg. i bet you everyone and there mother would be on that.

Ok random
exactly what rights have Christians removed from you? (or tried to remove) Or anyone else for that matter?

By the way, all students that go to the ‘narrow minded’ public schools in the US get evolution as the only option. What are they afraid of?

i have seen plenty of christain groups attempt to tell ME what video games are ok to play. that goes for CDs i can listen to as well as Movies i can watch.

…to complete my though…i don’t understand why Christian groups think they have the right to police what i can and cant play/hear/see. if you don’t want your kid to be exposed to it then don’t let him. but no way are you making any decision for me. this goes back to my previous comment that i don’t care if your gay or Christian, don’t push your beliefs on me and im fine. but this is Christians telling me its not ok to do what I want because they don’t think it is.

Uh, yournamehere
when and where exactly did Christian try to keep you from getting Duke Nukem and your favorite Hip Hop cd?
If I remember right, some groups wanted package labeling to help parents make informed choices, in fact, wasnt that Tipper and Al gore that were all about that?
Better try again.

I’m with Random Jerk all the way on this one.

This is so stupid. I bet 80% of the vehicles which are used in law enforcement are Ford Crown Vics. Aren’t they contridicting themselves?

Funny, since the Governor Arnold schwartsnihige.e…however you spell it, drives the most polluting, most inefficient vehicle out there, the Hummer.

Fatstrat- there is lawsuit right now in FLA about a game called “Bully”. the big hubbub is that walmart.com was pre-ordering the game before it had a rating. What 7ryr old kid has a credit card to buy the game! mom and dad got it for them. there for it is the parents fault. not the game company. that little johnny is exposed to the violence. (by the way the layer for this suit is backed by a Christian group) i dont feel like going into more detail. you do the research if you want. i think Random Jerk has hit the nail right on the head with his post. you dont HAVE to be gay, or get an abortion or watch violent movies. you want to take away MY freedom to do so because YOU dont think its right. well then i think if our going to believe in “god” you must also believe in santa clause because they both have as much base in truth. see, im sure you didnt like that. so what makes you think i want to hear your opinion, frankly i dont give a damn. i havnt been to church since i was 4, i believe in evolution and i had sex and im not married yet. im still standing. it all comes down to what i said 1st. you dont force your beliefs on me and we wont have any problems. ppl for gay marrage arnt saying you have to turn gay…they just want to get married. so why do you have the right to say they cant marry?

Fatstrat- there is lawsuit right now in FLA about a game called “Bully”. the big hubbub is that walmart.com was pre-ordering the game before it had a rating. What 7ryr old kid has a credit card to buy the game! mom and dad got it for them. there for it is the parents fault. not the game company. that little johnny is exposed to the violence. (by the way the layer for this suit is backed by a Christian group) i dont feel like going into more detail. you do the research if you want. i think Random Jerk has hit the nail right on the head with his post. you dont HAVE to be gay, or get an abortion or watch violent movies. you want to take away MY freedom to do so because YOU dont think its right. well then i think if our going to believe in “god” you must also believe in santa clause because they both have as much base in truth. see, im sure you didnt like that. so what makes you think i want to hear your opinion, frankly i dont give a damn. i havnt been to church since i was 4, i believe in evolution and i had sex and im not married yet. im still standing. it all comes down to what i said 1st. you dont force your beliefs on me and we wont have any problems. ppl for gay marrage arnt saying you have to turn gay…they just want to get married. so why do you have the right to say they cant marry?

Random Jerk/Jimbo, et al–Again, you refuse to read, and you refuse to answer my question. How has Christian influence in America affected your freedoms? What has been taken from you? Not might. Not want to. What have we done?? How are you less free? Whereas I stated clearly how the left HAS affected my rights and made me — and YOU — less free. You people all start with the typical reactionary hate speech and conclusion jumping. Did I ever say that anyone’s freedom should be taken away? NO! Again, read! I didn’t say anything about TV programs being banned, abortion being banned, homesexuality being banned. I stated those as examples of liberal influence being in control, and not Christian influence which so many of you are afraid of — and which got me started on this. And let’s see if I can be extreme to make a point. What if I think it’s OK to kill a baby after 1 year — you know, test him out, see if I like him? What if I think it’s OK to have sex with 5 year olds? What if I think it’s OK to own a slave? What if I think it’s OK to have sex with a cow in public? My choice, my freedom to live like I want. Can I, or would you and civilization have a problem with that? Would that disgust you? Would you be happy if it were allowed? Let’s just continue down the drain pipe, let everyone do whatever they want, society be damned, sink as far as we can sink, and live in moral anarcy. Sounds like a great plan. By the way, I’m still waiting for your examples of what we’ve done to make you less free?

No Dale you cant be extreme because being gay is not the same as having sex with 5 year olds and cows and you know it. you just don’t like gay people.

Allowing gay marriage is giving all americans EQUAL rights and is not going down the drain pipe. nor is it moral anarchy, you know you are being dishonest

Why not just be honest and say ” I want to deny some Americans the same rights that I enjoy”?

Be a man say it

Again, you listed many of the assaults on my freedom for me. You draw a distinction between the goals of the religious right and what they’ve actually acomplished. I draw NO such distinction. An attack on my freedom is attack, successful or not. Are my concearns only valid after you’ve struck down my freedom?

“What if I think it’s OK to kill a baby after 1 year — you know, test him out, see if I like him? What if I think it’s OK to have sex with 5 year olds? What if I think it’s OK to own a slave?”

All of these things violate the freedom of others. Specifically the rights of the 1 year old, the 5 year old, and the slave. Your freedom ends when it encroaches upon the freedom of others. Just like it ends when when you attempt to apply your morality wholesale to the rest of society.

“What if I think it’s OK to have sex with a cow in public?”

I personally would not have a problem with the actual act, (unlike you, I would assume) but for health and sanitation reasons I wouldn’t be against a (local level government) ban for this in public places.

“let everyone do whatever they want, society be damned, sink as far as we can sink, and live in moral anarcy”

Yea yea, I heard it a million times, without a bible derived moral code and the threat of eternal burning in hell, man would be amoral and have no reason to be plesent to his fellow man. I don’t buy that line of “reasoning” one bit, but it seems to be a really popular argument. Is the fear of punishment (or lack of reward for the I’m going to heaven types) the only reason you’re moral?

Random Jerk — what about the rights of the unborn child? You won’t dare consider that, will you? Leftists would be quick to protect the life of an unborn seal, but a human child can have his brains sucked out. What’s the difference between a 9 month old in the womb and a baby one day old after birth? None, yet one can be killed and the other can’t. And what if the 5 year old gives permission to have sex, or a 12 year old, or a 15 year old? Is it OK to have sex with them then? Or what about dead people — can’t harm their rights then, right. So sex with them would be OK? And you continue to amuse me by saying that I’ve listed a plan of attack against your freedoms when I certainly have not. Again, they are examples of liberal influence in society, and if you can’t understand that, maybe I have to rethink the whole evolution thing afterall. And I will accept your refusal to list examples of how we’ve taken your freedoms away as admission by you that we haven’t.

your examples of sex with children are misplaced. there are laws against that in every state. also you cant have an abortion after a certain time in the pregnancy so a 9mon old would never be aborted. and you cant have sex with dead ppl either. No one is saying you HAVE to be gay, or you HAVE to abort your child. so who are you to say other ppl cant? you may not have passed any laws but ill be damned if you aren’t trying. What if the mother was raped? or she isn’t in a stable environment and wouldn’t be able to raise the child well? would you rather she had the baby and raised it in a crappy place rather then wait a few years and do it right? And if you say will that’s diff, then who makes the decision of when a abortion is legal? Isn’t it the mother body? and what effect does it have on you if two guys or two girls want to get married? at most you may be a little uncomfortable if you see them at the mall. wake up…it’s a case of “your welcome to have an opinion as long as its the one i have” dalemf…tell me how a gay couple effect you? why cant a gay couple get married? it comes back to what i said earlier…i will respect your beliefs so long as you don’t try to push them onto me (Like trying to pass laws against abortions, or banning gay marriage, or taking video games off selves) in return i would expect you to respect me beliefs.

So, someone decided it wasn’t morally right to have sex with minors, so they passed a law? Someone decided it wasn’t morally right to have sex with dead people, so they passed a law? How dare these people legislate what others can and can’t do — I mean, what if someone has a genetic disposition to be attracted to those young children. Society is denying his rights? I’m shocked. And learn your law, smart guy. In most states, a woman can have an abortion at any time during her pregnancy. And I guess the whole “right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” only applies if your mom is in a good place in her life, or a good neighborhood? How many remarkable and important people in history were born in the ghettos and battled neighborhoods of crime and drugs to become important and historic? How many more were killed before they even had the chance because of convenience? Oh, and I guess that child I’ve referred to wanting to pray before a meal — silently and to herself — it’s OK to legislate against her rights? And since you’re so obsessed with homsexuality — far more than me since I’ve said very little about it: you want to be gay, fine. No problem. You want to live with another guy? Fine, do it. No problem. You want to pretend you’re married? Go for it, I won’t stop you — nor would most Christians. We wouldn’t agree with it, but we would never try to stop you. But I don’t see why we — as a society — have to be forced into legally accepting your lifestyle. We don’t legally allow people to be married to multiple people. Should we change that, too? You people like to throw around the word hypocrite. Well, try it on and see how you like it because there’s nothing more hypocritical than a liberal saying they respect a religious person’s beliefs. Let me see if I can use your own words — “i will respect your beliefs (homosexuality) so long as you don’t try to push them onto me (Like trying to pass laws against abortions {for partial birth abortion}, or banning gay marriage {legalizing gay marriage}, or taking video games off selves {limiting my freedom of religious rights}) in return i would expect you to respect me beliefs.” There, how’s that work?

First, the basis of your fears seems to be rooted in sexual addictions. You fear losing access to pornography. Uh, thats funny since its in every grocery store on on practically every street corner and freely piped into your living room 24/7. Hope thats not too difficult for you to get. And you don’t like the fact that gays cannot marry as hetro’s do, which is really just a semantic issue as gays have all the rights and then some under the law that heteros do. They just cant use the word ‘married’. Marriage defined is between people of the opposite sex. Gays want to re-define it. What is wrong with heteros wanting its definition to stay traditional? Gays lose nothing but a title therefore many people (even non-religious people) see it as an attack on what the traditional definition of marriage is.
But this is really just a side bar to the main point.
Corporate Evangelical Christianity is nothing like what you attemp to characterize it as here. The church wants to protect children and families. It is a proven FACT that you cannot argue with any kind of intellectual honesty that pornography is destructive to both. The church would probably like to see it go away, but is realistic in its views and SUPPORTIVE OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES and is not trying to ban it. When you make this claim, you are lying plain and simple. What the church does, is to try to educate that is is not a beneficial pursuit for obvious reasons.
Abortion? no one can prove scientifically when life begins all there are are theories. Why not err on the side of life? rather than possibly take one in the name of convenience?
Now you say you have no problem with someone who wants to have sex with a cow in the privacy of their own home. Look what incrimentalism has done to us. If you have no problem with that then you should see, not a priest but probably a doctor first.
I predict that in 20 years, beastiality will be as accepted as homosexuality is today do to the previously mentioned incrimentalism.
To compare the bible/Christianity to fairytales is such an imbicilic effort that it hardly bears responding to. The bible has been shown to be exact in geographical and historical content even by those who do not accept it as being Gods Word. No one is forcing you to believe it, no one is going to cut your head off with a rusty knife for not accepting it or speaking out against it nor will you lose your head over making assinine comments about it like you have here.
Too much to comment on here.
The subjects are worthy of debate. But you are just not making a case here.

if your life is right for you then live it. dont make others do what you think is right. thats why we have FREEDOMS…so we can pick what we want to do. you want to play a violent game go for, if you dont then…dont. but if i want to play grand theft auto and killer a hooker there you have no right to stop me.

my biggest problem with religion is that there are to many. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist and countless others. how can all of them be right? are any of them right? what if the “right” religion died 45,000 years ago and no one has ever practiced it in modern times. what if…oh no…Islam is the right religion?! and because of this war all the Christians will be going to hell for going against Muhammad! and what about the Greek/roman belief of the gods? how childish does it sound that ppl believed there was a mountain with gods that controlled every part of human life? it sounds like a cartoon. and i don’t think there is any educated person today that believes this to be true…yet millions of people believe that there is being that looks down on use from heaven and decided what to do with us?! i cant wait, in 2000yrs kids in a class room will be learning about our time period and laugh because we believed in ‘god’ then again…maybe im wrong and ill die and go to hell…or maybe ill just rot in the ground. Until the day I find out the answer im going to enjoy my Sunday mornings by sleeping in.

Your Name Here — You must really be worried about your video games, because you keep coming back to it and no one else is talking about it. But, what if a young boy keeps playing a violent video game and then goes out and acts it out in real life? Doesn’t society have a duty to try and prevent that — not by banning your precious games, but by at least informing parents of what those games contain? And yes, there are a lot of religions. No, they are not all right. There have been 1000s of false gods worshipped, but there is only one true God, and the evidence for it is all around us. That’s my belief. And this will shock you — you are perfectly entitled to your belief. But if sleeping in on Sundays and playing video games is what matters most to you, I’m just going to have to start praying for you.

PS: in the 60s & 70s cowboys and Indians where big. lots of movies and tv shows and what not. my father tells me all the time there was the same arguments when he was a kid. kids playing cowboys and Indians were going to grow up and rob banks and kill ppl. my dad played, he is a responsible adult. owns his own company. and has never broken the law more then a speeding ticket. For the video games = violent future argument to hold any water I need proof that the child wouldn’t have done the violent action with out the video games. there has been violence since day one. Its animal. Its primal. Its not electronic.
– SCOTT SYLVAINUS –

edit- for the violent games = violent future agrument to hold any water i need to be shown the child wouldn’t have done the violent actions with out the games and that the games is what caused the child to do it. one could argue that the violent nature of the child is what drew him to the game in the 1st place.

You’re obviously pretty young then, and I really don’t know what you’re talking about with half your statements. No one said anything new had to be done about video games. You were the one complaining, and since the warning labels are the only thing that has ever been done about video games, I assumed you didn’t like that. And absolutely it’s the parents responsibility. You sound like a conservative there; maybe you should support Republican efforts for tort reform to get rid of all the frivolous lawsuits — like this CA suit. And no, you don’t have to be a Christian to treat people with respect — whoever said you did? What an idiotic thing to say or believe. You keep throwing things in here that no one has talked about. And if we can never change anyone’s mind about religion, why do so many people — like myself — go from not belieiving in God to following Christ and accepting him as our Lord and Saviour? God’s calling is far stronger than your power to resist. We’re the last two even talking on this topic, so maybe this entire blog has been used by Him as a way to open your eyes to your need for Him. He works like that, you know. I will keep you in my prayers, young man.

Ok Scott Sylvainus.
Still, now one is or ever has tried to take your video games away from you. Like I said before, Tipper and Algore managed to get music and games and such labeled to help parents and to limit what kids could get without parental approval. Seems reasonable doesnt it?
And you really should do a little research into the worlds religions and Christianity. You might learn something.
I reccomended before ‘Evidence That Demands a Verdict’ by Josh Mcdowell.
After all, it is an important issue, and I would rather be me than you if I happened to be wrong.
In any case, you can still be a Christian and play video games and sleep in on sunday mornings. no rules againt that.

or maybe everyone just got tired of arguing…your right, im young. lots of energy. i can keep going as long as ya want. and i have had this argument with many ppl, and haven’t been turned onto god or religion. in fact it turns me off even more. i dont label myself as a republican democrat liberal or conservative. doing so instantly limits your ability to see/hear an issue and deal with it unbiased. i dont think any one group/book/person/god/cheeseburger has all the answer, im not going to support conservatives that wont let gays marries but i support video game/music/tv warning labels 110%. maybe if you take off your “Bible Blinders” and look at everyone’s opinion you might see what im talking about. PS, save your prayers, they don’t mean anything to me and im sure your time can be better spent.

It’s silly to equate old time cowboy movies to video games that young people like you can play for hours at a time. There is a far, far greater strain on one’s psychological well-being through continuous, day after day, hour after hour play where the player is lost to the world around them and actually commiting the violence in the game than any old time cowboy movie — before the days of video and cable TV — a kid would see once. There is more involved in the game, and as an avid player, you would have to admit that. But, considering your age and your not-so-admirable go-get ‘em attitude of sleeping in and playing games, maybe you can’t figure these things out yet.

I was just as sure as you when I was your age that I knew everything, too. And you know what? When you grow up, have kids, get a job and really start to see how these things affect your life and your family’s, you realize just how stupid you were when you were young.

ill give ya a little background…im 21, graduated college have a full time, design tshirts for a large sports apparel company, bought a brand new car at 20, my gf has a child (not mine by blood by there is alot more to being a father then blood) i raised my bro and sis more then most siblings do. i far more responsible then most my age. don’t try to insult my intelligence/responsibility because i like to play video games a sleep in. there are far to many questionable things in any religion for me to believe in them. a couple ppl on an internet message board are not going to convince me to do anything. if it works for you and helps you get through your day and makes you feel good then go for it. but it doesn’t work for me…

ps. im done with this converstation. when you corss the line of talking about a concept we disagree on to insulting me as a person it goes to far. have a good life doing what ya gotta do to get by.

Point taken.
But from an intellectually honest perspective, one wouldnt know if ‘it’ worked for them unless they tried ‘it’.
People can do what ever they want spiritually, Christians are motivated by the fact that the Word of God tells them to have compassion for non-believers. If I saw you standing on rail road tracks and there was a train coming that you didnt see i would tell you about it. Same thing.
But, no one should insult/harass or demean you for making the decision you are making. Just be sure you are making it from and educated point of view for your sake and the sake of any children you may have influence over.

“your right, im young. lots of energy. i can keep going as long as ya want.” What happened to that? I heard a lot of crossing the line about Christians earlier. Again, though, that’s OK, right?

Bye.

dalemf- what happened was we stopped talking about religion and started insulting me…not what i said i was going to discuss. do what you gotta do. its your life. you know if what your doing is the right thing for you. it feels right. if i felt like i needed to go to church i would go (like i said earlier i dont label myself, it limits what you see) but right now to me, religion makes no sence. i feel my energy/time can be better used somewhere else.

and i didnt insult your person. we were talking about religion. both sides of the belief line were crossed. but you crossed into the personal level. that was un called for.

YNH, what I have found time and time again is that folks who have accepted Christ commenting on how it was like putting on eyeglasses with proper prescription after years of having it wrong. They say they saw everything much more clearly after. But in any case, I am not perfect so I will screw up now and again (’not perfect, just forgiven’)but I don’t want to make any enemies. I respect your personal decision even though I don’t agree with it.
I would just reccomend some research and just ask God to show you.
You don’t believe He exists, so what can it hurt?
thanks for the lively exchange.
now, back to cars.

appreciate the respect…though i think the actual topic of this thread died back around post 50 or so haha

YourNameHere, you’re right. dalemf, you’ve got tunnelvision, you believe that you’re so called “senority” enables you to understand life/the world around us better than others. It doesn’t. What you’re saying is illogical, you comfort yourself with religion and God because there are questions in life you don’t have the answer to, so of course, God and religion are there to give you the “”"answers”"”. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, millions, no let me restate that, billions of people do the same thing, every single day. But don’t for a second let that give you the idea that you somehow understand things better than everyone else does, because it clearly doesn’t.

and yes fatstart, cars indeed. cars provides almost as heated a discussion as religion. maybe more.

LamboZ — what are you talking about? You guys always take everything to extreme. I mention one thing about how you see things differently when you get older — not better, just differently, and you realize you weren’t all that smart when you were young — and I suddenly have senior’s tunnelvision (I’m only 44). It’s impossible to have intelligent conversation when people jump to conclusions and add thoughts and ideas that weren’t offered. You think I’m supposed to have that attitude because of your stereotype of Christians, not because of what I’ve said. Like Fatstrat said, I’m not perfect, just forgiven. In fact, to be a Christian means to admit you’re a big-time screw up. I KNOW I’m not perfect and DON’T know everything. But I have opinions, and last time I checked, I can still do that.

And believe me, the older you get the more stupid you think you were when you were younger.
42 here, and boy was I dumb when i was 17-20. LOL.

so what kind of car does Attorney General Bill Lockyer drive that he doesn’t contribute to the very thing he’s sueing for?