Comments on: Clunkers analysis shows contrast between Michigan and US

By: monte

monte — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:38:10 +0000

By the way, that was really an intelligent comment you left. It really showed me your degree paid off. There was not a single thing in there that debated anything I said or the topic at hand. Keep up the good work!

By: monte

monte — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 06:31:55 +0000

Actually not new on here, had my account for probably close to two years. I just don’t comment that much. Obviously I struck a nerve with you. Poor guy What exactly do you have against what I’m saying. If you can’t see the bias some people have on this site you’re blind. All I’m saying if you have two cars that are equal, why wouldn’t you buy the one from the home town? Do you think they act like that in Asia or Europe? And don’t make any mistake, I’m not saying all cars are equal, but there are some domestics that are better than their import counterpart but people will bash them just for being domestic. Why be so against the country you’re from, the one that pioneered the auto industry.

By: HoosierHero

HoosierHero — Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:21:24 +0000

Ok monte, you are new on here so I was giving you a chance but I see you are a retard ala NMOFGM. Do us all a favor and climb back into your trolling hole you crawled out of. Why even make an account? You are wasting people’s time.

“become an engineer” …retard. Watching those afternoon specials too much after school gets out?

“flipping burgers” …retard. I wouldn’t know as I have a graduate degree. That’s G-R-A-D-U-A-T-E . I’ll let your mom know you can work second shift at the fry basin.

By: beatusmongous

beatusmongous — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:06:20 +0000

The blind supporting can swing both ways. Perfect examples would be NMOFGM and 1115. I, for one, don’t have a favorite make, but I do have favorite cars.

By: monte

monte — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:43:07 +0000

Sorry buddy, I don’t follow blindly. There are imports I like. I just don’t understand certain peoples attitudes to just hate american cars because it’s the cool smug thing to do. There are plenty of capable engineers in the US that design excellent products and hard workers that make them. If you don’t think so become one and do better then. It’s real easy to be the monday morning quarterback isn’t it? I say support your own first. You know…….like when your at your job flipping burgers at mcdonalds and the drive through guy is swamped, do you help him out? Or do you send your business down the street to BK so they can get your cash?

By: HoosierHero

HoosierHero — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:52:15 +0000

*shouldn’t blindly support

By: HoosierHero

HoosierHero — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:51:48 +0000

@monte I’m not sh*tting on anyone by not buying their products. I’m not saying American products are inferior either. What I”m saying is people should blindly support American-made products just because they are made in America. I’d also like to ask how you expect me to help the Big 3?? Should I give Mulally an email or do you have his number. Pfft. There are a lot of companies that could use “help” but that’s not my problem or job. Companies are in business to make money. If they don’t put out a good product then they suffer. The weak companies go away and the strong survive.

By: gabnmantha

gabnmantha — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:29:58 +0000

Hellooooo? It’s time to see the big picture people! Some still can’t or refuse to see it. American cars have proven to be as good or better than imports.

Just give them a try. Geezzz, is it sooo hard to do? So much talk & B.S. about why we shouldn’t buy domestics: Imports are better (lie), I don’t like the gears being purchased in India, (petty reason),Gm builds some cars in Mexico & canada (The profits stay w/ GM) I don’t like the unions pay scale ( They have since reduce their wages) I won’t buy from Government Motors until they pay back the loan (Well, yes it is a loan. Do you really think that reason makes any sense? Oh btw, your brain dead if you think that is a good reason)

The stupid, childish reasons not to support the domestics can go on and on. The bottom line is if enough people take their blinders off & give them a F*#$ing chance, the loans will be paid back, the jobs will start to come back & manufacturing will blossom once again.

I know this is an Auto forum, but stop & think about what each of us does for a living. Your career could be just as easily considered useless, obsolete & subpar.

By: beatusmongous

beatusmongous — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:19:32 +0000

If you think Monte’s words were “name calling,” then I don’t know what to say. I think Hoosier can handle a ribbing without incident. Smegley must be extremely offensive to quite a few people here. Men sure are getting weaker these days.

By: monte

monte — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 04:30:28 +0000

My comment was in response to someone calling me a drone in a sarcastic statement meant to insult me. Get over it. What I said was pretty tame and the person it was directed to is probably bothered less by it than those who commented. Lets try to focus on the the overall message please.

By: bailout

bailout — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:26:48 +0000

Michigan….. Co. Name Pricol…. see the link…..

Sounds like they beat the hell out of the HR VP…. they killed him. First shot is of Ford Flex, gets tranny innards from this company.

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/09/23/Striking_workers_beat_Pricol_VP_to_death/

Thanks for the info…. Nevada CHK. 1’2

By: bailout

bailout — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:18:17 +0000

Michigan….. little more info. on the labor strikes in India. Couple people killed, no big deal. Why aren’t we getting more details on the type of factories that the domestics are using outside of the country? Sounds a little like the activity the Nike got nailed on, sweat shops with little or no regard for their workers. Why don’t we hear anything from the UAW regarding this type of activity? We need more media coverage on this type of activity. Please check the link:

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/10/20/india.labor.unrest/

Does anyone have any more links to the details behind this activity? Please post it!!!

By: aggie531

aggie531 — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:58:38 +0000

Hoosierhero- I agree with your statement. Monte, I get your point but disagree. Also, you really need to become more mature and stop the name calling. You are practically talking to another person. Just remember that.

Maturity makes you look smart, immaturity makes you look like a troll. Simplicity people.

By: bailout

bailout — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 02:46:31 +0000

Sorry Michigan…. this ain’t flying with the rest of the country. I’m in machine tool supply and when the new domestics can make it here and you can’t, I have to support them. Case in point. Recent labor strike in India…. the factory workers ended up doing a number on the plant manager….. probably no big deal….. however, the kicker is that this factory shut down numerous plants in the U.S., a GM plant that builds Enclaves & Traverses, a Ford plant that makes the Edge and other SUV’s and most recently it shut down the beloved Ford Taurus plant…… why you ask? Becuse the so called domestics buy their gears from this third rate factory in India. The labor strike lasted a month and was loaded with violence. I’ll just continue to sell my tooling to the new domestics that decided to set up shop in the country in which they sell the bulk of their cars. Ford, once I get rid of this fleet Fusion I’m going to break down and buy a locally made Toyota. Thanks for shipping all of my business overseas. I bet that plant shut down was costly…… some day you will bring it back….. I hope????

By: beatusmongous

beatusmongous — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:50:20 +0000

Mark, I was just goofing with you guys, and with everyone else. I wanted to see who would jump on the messed up numbers.

But really, there is no indicator of percentage of foreign cars that were traded in. Instead, it is a percentage of foreign cars purchased versus domestic cars purchased in different areas.

“57 percent of Americans traded in a product from the Detroit Three to purchase a foreign make” – this could mean that 43% of Americans traded a domestic for another domestic, foreign for foreign, or foreign for domestic. The remaining 43% can be divided up into three categories, which means that greater than 57% traded a domestic vehicle, or that less than 43% of the trade ins were foreign. I’m betting the number of foreign cars brought in was pretty small, mostly due to the fact that the older ones tended to have better gas mileage, and the newer ones that don’t have better gas mileage are worth more than $4,500. I would be interested to see the actual number of foreign cars that were traded in.

By: ktulu

ktulu — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 00:44:37 +0000

Michigan is in trouble, but a lot of them no a good car whin they C 1.

It is not a good eve
Ole

Honda $& toyota r crap!

Michigan was wrong 2 rely so heavy on cars
I don’t care Vout 4n or do
Estic, but japan don’t play fair

By: gta89mike

gta89mike — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:33:18 +0000

Another problem with Americans is we expect to pay the cheapest price for things, but we expect to make above average wages. That is why so much manufacturing has had to go to other countries because the companies cannot afford to sell the things so cheap and pay the high American wages. Easier said than done, but if we did focus on buying American products, we would be a much stronger economy. We will pay more but we will be supporting American workers. Sorry, impossible for a service economy to work, thus the importance of keeping the Big 3 alive.

By: Cardemon04

Cardemon04 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:27:44 +0000

Raineman, that’s got to be one of the dumbest arguments I’ve seen on this site… No economy can exist solely as a service economy. A strong economy must export more than it imports, so unless your plan is to stop importing and exist only on what we have here the economy would collapse under your plan.

Hoosierhero, you are correct… Americans like to buy the cheapest equivalent product without regard to where it was made. the problem becomes that while Americans see things as a global economy there are MANY countries that do not. They demonstrate something lost here known as national pride and loyalty. They(and their governments) do what they can to purchase products made in their country and avoid products foreign to them. So it’s not a true global economy as many seem to think it is. it’s part of that idealist thinking that removes reality from the equation and just looks at how great something could be in a perfect world.

By: gta89mike

gta89mike — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 22:23:03 +0000

Monte – I don’t agree with calling people names, but your thoughts are great. I agree with your thinking 100%. This country grew so strong and quick by US taking care of OURSELVES, before free trade was in existence. I believe we should close our borders, bring our troops home, take care of ourselves and support ourselves. Americans are educated and we build and manufacture quality products. Quit bashing Americans and see for yourself. Just like Monte said, you are bashing yourselves as Americans. Pretty ludicrous if you think about it. If you don’t like America, get out.

By: monte

monte — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:40:34 +0000

@hoosierhero Not a drone. But if you don’t like something, do something to make it better than just complain about it. How do you think things get better. People need to support them, and I don’t mean just by buying their stuff, but by thinking of a better way or idea. You are sh*ting on people that could be your nieghbor or friend or family. So instead of sitting around idle and telling them they suck, give them a hand. But chances are you are just a brainless talentless internet blogger.

By: HoosierHero

HoosierHero — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:27:46 +0000

@monte It’s not “Americans so against their own.” It’s Americans thinking independently and enjoying democracy and free markets. Most Americans like to buy quality products no matter who makes them and appreciates those companies. If you want to be a drone try China they’ll love you there!

By: NRG

NRG — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:16:30 +0000

Enough analysis about this program already. It’s dead and gone. Move on LLN.

By: johnnycanuck

johnnycanuck — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:13:07 +0000

spg900, first of all don’t ever take anything I say too seriously… or personally… most people around here know that. But if I did have one wish of a political nature it would be that we could put your province to sleep the next time we vote in a federal election.

By: carstuff

carstuff — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:00:35 +0000

Does anyone think we can make it with only service jobs? If we import anything it is kinda hard to pay for it by cleaning someone elses house or selling them insurance here in the states. I guess we have to find a way to clean houses in Japan or China.

I am sure there are things we have they want to trade. Perhaps we can ship food. Or something but as much as we import and as much as we owe China it better be alot.

By: monte

monte — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:52:14 +0000

Why are americans so against their own? I just don’t understand the comments on here sometimes. Do you think people in Japan or other countries sit around and talk about how they hate their own companies and want good things for the US companies because they think they are just too inferior? The people that work for and run US co’s are you and me. Real people! We come up with inovative ideas and need to employ our own to create better living for us. These are real people that went to our universities and people here that are hard working americans. It’s like saying you don’t like yourself. The US was far more powerful and growing a half a century ago because things actually said made in USA on them, we also had much better national debt. If outsourcing isn’t a problem like people say it is, then why are things getting worse the more we do it?

Sorry kind of a random rant on things, but remember WE are these companies and WE are a team that can only do as well as the support people give us

By: RaineMan

RaineMan — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 20:49:40 +0000

Carstuff… manufacturing is already gone here, the Detroit 3 are just too stubborn to realize it. Clothing, Furniture, Electronics, Home Appliances… all made overseas. I work for a wireless equipment distributor, and everything we sell, service, and support is made in either China, Taiwan, Canada, or Mexico.

The future of the US is a service based economy… with everything based on consumer sales and customer service. Go ask your friends, how many of them actually work for a company that makes something?

The sooner people realize this, the better we will all be.

By: Mark Kleis

Mark Kleis — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:53:30 +0000

Beast – Although you did in fact find a way to combine numbers to make 100%, you didn’t read the article correctly.
The article stats that 57% of Americans traded in an American car for a foreign car. Thus, 100-57=43% traded in a foreign car.
Get it now?

By: spg900

spg900 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:58:08 +0000

johnny- I’m from Quebec… what’s your point?

By: gta89mike

gta89mike — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:41:05 +0000

beatusmongous – maybe the reason there were no foreign vehicles traded in is because in order to qualify it had to be 8 years old or older. None of them are on the road anymore.

By: carstuff

carstuff — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:34:56 +0000

Raineman, there is more to a car company than just building the vehicles. Yes some imports build some of their vehicles in the US using low cost workers. And they keep a minor contingent of professionals to market those vehicles and some even have Engineering/Development groups to “americanize” them but overall they employ a much lower number of people per vehicle sold than our domestics.

Buy what you want but just be aware of what we are doing to our country. Manufacturing is soon to be gone here.

By: gabnmantha

gabnmantha — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:30:33 +0000

In the 1950′s, Preston Tucker once said that if we weren’t careful, we’d all end up buying cars from our former enemies. Well, that statement has rung true. It would be the same as saying that 25 years from now, your grand kids will think it’s ok to buy a new car at their local al-Qaida dealership.
Our former enemies are still fighting us from within our own borders. They are doing it thru our own governements greed. Import auto companys receive more tax incentives than domestic auto manufacturers. We are in a global economy so it has become nessessary for Ford & GM to build plants in Mexico & canada just so they can compete on a financial & globel level. The unions actually forced some of those moves as well. Has anyone ever heard a story that our Government has offered billions in tax incentives to bring the assembly plants back to Michigan, Texas & Indiana? No,because GM & Ford & Chrysler weren’t offered those incentives. Instead, Sen. Shelby from Alabama helped to bring 5 import plants to his state thru those very same incentives. How is that fair? Guess what, Toyota & Honda & Mitzubishi saw the financial sense it make to move THEIR plants to a foreign land. However, when GM moves a plant from Michigan to Canada, they get blasted for it.
Now that the wages are in line across the board for all the auto makers, it will be interesting to see how well GM & Ford do. They now have some fantastic products to go head to head against their foreign competitors. All they need now are American consumers to understand & see the big picture. I don’t blame Toyota or Honda for anything other than trying to make a profit. I do blame the American buying public for throwing away common sense & refusing to support the American Auto industry
for mistakes they have made in the past. They deserve another chance!

Just think about this(as unlikely as it may seem): If the United States were to suddenly go to war with Japan or Germany next week, would you really like to be seen in one of their cars or trucks?

By: beatusmongous

beatusmongous — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:16:21 +0000

I find the numbers to be funny, and here’s why:

81 + 19 = 100
43 + 57 = 100

According to those numbers, 100% of the vehicles that were traded in were domestic vehicles. The only difference is on the purchase end. It seems no one traded foreign vehicles, only purchased them.

Of course, I do have to point out that there is no number stating the number of foreign vehicles traded, but I doubt that the 81% in Michigan traded foreign for domestic. They would be more inclined to own domestics to begin with.

Plus, honestly, how many foreign vehicles fit the requirements?

By: 2WheeledSpeed

2WheeledSpeed — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:14:06 +0000

“reveals a startling contrast between Michigan participants and the rest of the nation in regards to the origin of the vehicles traded-in and purchased.”

Only startling if you live under a rock…

By: HDSRED

HDSRED — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 17:02:41 +0000

Borat, why does it matter that the article is 2 years old? It still happened, Toyota has had so many problems that people are unaware of, and most of them Toyota denies and lies about. Why is it when something bad is brought up against a foreign automaker, people make excuses for them and rationalize? However, when something bad happens to a Domestic auto maker, people are all over them, even the smallest or OLDEST things? You are worried about a relatively new article that is only 2 years old, when people still bring up news that is over 30 years old about Ford and the Pinto and that is OK?

By: Borat

Borat — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 16:32:41 +0000

FYI, this article is 2 years old. We got So. Korean companies building cars in US since and I am sure with devaluation of our buck, production is not likely to move to Europe or Japan. If anything more comes here or even more likely to China. And to complicate things parts and components manufacturing is definitely shifting to Asia. So do we salute Buick made in China and blame Honda for our problems? Of course we do, according to good number of posters.

By: ajm11

ajm11 — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:40:59 +0000

I am by all means no expert on this but I think the vehicles built in Mexico would still be considered domestic. Mostly because of the NAFTA agreement between Canada, U.S. and Mexico. What is more interesting than just looking at where the vehicle is assembled is how much content in the vehicle is domestic made.

On Average the domestic content in the Chrysler, GM and Ford sits at 77%. By domestic content I mean parts coming from Canada or the U.S. When you look at the imports the have less than 50% domestic content. Honda may be the exception as their vehicles built in North America have 59% domestic content. While the Honda Accord to single it out has 70% domestic content. I found this info at the following link http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-22-american-usat_N.htm

By: leftwingagenda

leftwingagenda — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:40:10 +0000

how can you blame honda and toyota marketing for being successful? that’s like blaming usain bolt for running too fast…you should blame the domestics for losing the marketing battle so easily…today the domestics may make a car with equal quality and reliability, but at one time that was not the case, and it takes years if not decades to get that reputation back…that’s how important reputation is…and the domestics are still paying the price for their bad rep, even when their products are competitive…that’ll take time and consistency to change…

By: gta89mike

gta89mike — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:24:01 +0000

We live in a world economy nowadays, so yes, the lines are blurred on every product we purchase. GM, Ford, and Chrysler are American companies supporting American workers and supporting American economies, charities, little league teams, etc. all throughout the country. Yes, some foreign vehicles are built here employing Americans, only becasue of the huge tax breaks these foreign companies received to build their plants here. Do you think they used the tax savings to reinvest in American interests? All companies are in business to make a profit and those profits go back to the homeland, supporting their interests.
The arguments that the domestics do not produce vehicles that consumers want is just pure nonsense. Every manufacturer builds quality, competitive products, and you are just cheating yourself and the American economy if you do not give the domestics a look when shopping for a new vehicle.

By: Smegley Wanxalot

Smegley Wanxalot — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:19:23 +0000

This is surprising to whom?
Guess what. I’ll give a Texas company priority in my purchasing decisions too. I won’t be blindly loyal but I try to keep money local.

By: johnnycanuck

johnnycanuck — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:18:31 +0000

Why are all of you so worried about what Michigan does? At least they speak the same language and don’t throw cheese curds on french fries.

By: HoosierHero

HoosierHero — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:18:24 +0000

Michigan and example?? Buahahaha! The only example Michigan is good for is diversification of industries. Don’t put all of your eggs in one basket again Michigan! Does Michigan need a pep talk?

By: RaineMan

RaineMan — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:09:48 +0000

So… anyone want to do a calculation on what percentage of vehicles made by the “Michigan 3″ are actually assembled in places like Mexico?

Buying domestic does not mean the money or jobs will stay in the USA. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and BMW also assemble cars here in the US… what is so wrong with purchasing from them? They employ Americans, do they not?

It is the obligation of the consumer to purchase the car that best suits their wants and needs. If the Michigan 3 cannot produce vehicles that are competitive on the market, why should they have customers?

Now I will blame an overly successful marketing campaign from the folks at Honda and Toyota for polarizing much of the American public against domestic automobiles. In order to gain any market share these days vehicles from GM and Ford have to be made better than the foreign competition and sell at a lower price. But then again when you have folks from Honda and BMW giving incentives to magazine writers to be biased towards their cars, what do you expect to happen?

By: Borat

Borat — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:55:36 +0000

Before I start quoting Mark Twain on statistics, I would like to know if imports were build in US or in Japan and So. Korea? I also would like to know if domestics build in Mexico are counted as domestics along with Chevy Aveo build in So. Korea by Daewoo (not that they sold millions of them, but for statistical clarity). According to Forbes, Business Week etc there is very little clarity on what is actually domestic and what is not. And I take for granted that for Michigan union members and their families cars build in Tennessee, Kentucky or Texas are more foreign then Mexican build.

By: carstuff

carstuff — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:10:48 +0000

So basically everyone bought what they always buy. The big 3 are at 45% of the market (thru oct .09) which is pretty darn good considering their are about 10 marques.

The differential between the 45% and the 43% is probably due to a higher penetration of small cars bought during the clunker campaign and the higher penetration of trucks bought not during the clunker campaign. The big 3 still own the market for trucks.

And Michigan buying mostly domestics? How is that news. They know which side of their bread is buttered and it sure is not by the competition.

By: NO more oil for GM is retarded

NO more oil for GM is retarded — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 14:10:36 +0000

Yes Detroit is nirvana. lol Flint is so much better. Everyone should move to Michigan. lol