So 20% of us will be complaining about $8 a gallon diesel.

Diesel of course leads to biodiesel, which I love because it helps wean us off paying people in hateful parts of the world to kill us, but I was laughing the other day reading how a bunch of UN wankers are convening to discuss that millions of kids worlwide are being “malnourished” because the demand for biodiesel is one of the major causes of the sharp rise in food/groceries lately so the por can’t afford it, and in true UN “hate the west” fashion Americans and Europeans are to blame for all the world’s malnourished people.

Of course those kids could eat if OPEC would turn up the spigot, but then Al Gore and his minions of envirowhackoffs would flip out so really the blame for all those starving kids lies with environmentalism putting pressure on people to find “renewable resources” and “not contribute to global warming/cooling/warming/flavor-du-jour” but if they admit that then they can’t lay the guilt trip required to compel you to submit to their desires and give them money.

^^^^^ Word. That’s the world’s philosophy, blame everyone else for your problems. It’s not these 3rd world countries fault that we give them food and BILLIONS of dollars a year and they still can’t step into the 21st century. It’s our faults for driving our veicles and wasting gas going to work so we can send them our tax money and use up all the extra grease that’s used for bio diesel. Not to mention we are the ones that invent everything. If these other countries where the trend setters we would still be in caves writing on the walls with charred sticks and dying at the “old” age of 25.

Ted Turner said in 40 years we will be eating each other due to global warming and no food supplies.
Diesel was attractive, but NOT at the present EPA manditory clean burning crazy high fuel prices.
I will keep gasoline…the fuel mileage gains nothing.

I would be shocked if diesel became that prevalent in the U.S. market on that short of a time frame. Consumer awareness of diesel technology these days is very low, and the infrastructure to support diesels in such high numbers does not yet exist. Diesel is significantly cheaper than gasoline in Europe, which is why it works so well there. When it’s more expensive, harder to find a pump, and consumer perception believes that it’s “dirtier” and “for commercial trucks”, the prediction of 20% diesel in the U.S. seems misguided.

consumer awareness is low because we have no selection. If you want a low priced diesel, you HAVE to get a jetta TDI. If you want a luxo diesel you HAVE to get a benz, or if you want an off roader you HAVE to get a grand cherokee. Thats what the american public is offered right now. Not exactly great for awareness – itll pick up fast as the models available do.

(im not including the obvious 3/4 ton pickups)

I think this **** has gotten out of hand, **** AL GORE!

Nobody’s buying deisels in the short term with >$4 diesel cost. Simple economics will tell you the mileage gain isn’t worth the fuel cost premium.

One in five vehicles in eleven years and change- this guy’s dreaming. Where were we in terms of diesel vehicles in 1997? Trucks and VWs and high end Mercs. Where are we now? Trucks and VWs and high end Mercs/Audis and a couple of Jeeps. Sorry, but it just isn’t going to happen that fast- if at all.

That 10-percent-by-2020 prediction for hybrids seems low.

hybrids arent going to last long unless they are diesel-hybrids. when a 1997 Jetta TDI can pull 50mpg’s and a prius struggles to get 45, with way less power and torque, why bother?

johnnycanuck, in the next 4-5 years the US diesel market is going to boom more than it has in the last 50 years. F-150 diesels; Honda odyssey, pilot, ridgeline, accord; BMW 3 series, 5 series, X5; audi a4, Q7, and possibly even the A8; mercedes S-class may too get bluetec; VW is going to step it up a notch too – they are the diesel leaders. Mitsubishi may also show us a diesel. By the time 2020 rolls around id have to say diesel options on our shores will increase 1000%.

No surprise here.
HemiRR: $8 diesel will be a better bvargain than $7.75 petrol.

“That’s the world’s philosophy, blame everyone else for your problems.” More prevalent in the USA.

Diesel is not the answer… it costs a third more than gas… and barely delivers 25% more fuel economy… not to mention that the overly complex diesel engines with their urea injection crap are going to be crazy expensive to put into cars and to work on.

I think that these figures are based on the number of models being developed and likely to be sold in th coming years.

I think that Biofuels have a future just not at the expense of our food supplies, which is about the stupidest thing you can do. I would rather have to walk to the store than starve having nothing at the store when I drive there. There are projects attempting to make light sweet “crude oil” using Bacteria and algae. They do so with consuming our food, basically eating crap and pollution, and make oil that can be made into gas and diesel fuels.

Anyway, RaineMan (#15),
Yes Diesel costs more, but that was not always the case. The increasing demand and very scant, comparatively speaking next to Gasoline, is marching the price always faster than Gas. But power? Diesel engines have always gotten off on torque more than horsepower. I’m sure companies like AUDI and MERCEDES-BENZ can turn that around.

As for over-complicated engines, You really haven’t looked at “simple” 4-stroke, internal combustion, reciprocating piston, multi-valve, four cycle engine. A V8 diesel is unbelievably simple in comparison. The issue of UREA, is being approached by DETROIT is a very different way: A new type of Catalytic Converter that with burn and break down the soot and smoke. The Federal Government has mandated low-sulfur Diesel to reduce pollutants even more. No fancy add-ons, no refills required, just a new type Catalytic box. I know FORD is working on one.

There’s a couple of words that come to mind when LLN brings us news about anything related to fuel……….joke, scam, bull****, GWB, Gore and Sheeple.

Blakkarr…

I have two cars… one with a 2.5L 8 valve turbo 4… and one with a 2.0L 16 valve supercharged 4… neither of them are stock… and they don’t seem really complicated to me.

The last time I read an article on Bluetec… that was pretty complicated.

Blue tec is basically the same “typical” European, refined Diesel, It just lok s complicated in the technical drawings, with a sprayer for the urea compound. That’s really all there is. Europeans have enjoyed diesel power since the end of WW2 as a mainstream engine. Diesel is also a bit less costly in the Europe than it is over here, though not cheaper than gas, the fuel economy makes up the difference, like it used to in the US.

Besides you know the Germans and almost as crazy about over thinking a device as the Japanese. If Bluetec is overly complex it should not be taken as the rule but the exception as you should, no doubt, realize having two diesels yourself..

“Nobody’s buying deisels in the short term with >$4 diesel cost. Simple economics will tell you the mileage gain isn’t worth the fuel cost premium.”

snork – Simple economics tells you you’re wrong with tha statement. Diesels get 30% better fuel economy than gas engines of equivalent torque output, on average. While diesel fuel is more expensive than gas right now (a temporary situation caused by U.S. refinery capacity constraints – diesel in the past was cheaper than gas, and should be as it is cheaper to manufacture), it is NOT 30% more expensive than gas. Regular gas where I live is selling for $3.49/gal. Diesel is selling for $4.27/gal. That’s 22% higher cost, not enough to wipe out the 30% lower consumption. A simple example: a gas powered big block Suburban gets 11 MPG average, and over 100 miles will consume 9.1 gallons @ $3.49/gal = $31.79 in fuel cost. A diesel Suburban gets 15 MPG average, and over 100 miles will consume 6.7 gallons @ $4.27/gal = $28.46.

So, even with the higher diesel fuel prices, a diesel is still more economical to operate than a gas engine. Over 15,000 miles, the gas model will consume $4,759 in gasoline, while the diesel model will consume $4,270 in diesel fuel. That’s nearly $500 per year in fuel savings – more if you drive more.

And this is with the current unfavorable pricing premium on diesel fuel. When diesel falls back to about the same price as regular gas, and it will by mid-summer (it did last year), the savings is even greater.

Diesels make sense. The sad part is, the average car buyer in the U.S. is too stupid to figure it out.

“Diesel is not the answer… it costs a third more than gas… and barely delivers 25% more fuel economy… not to mention that the overly complex diesel engines with their urea injection crap are going to be crazy expensive to put into cars and to work on.

Comment by RaineMan, posted on April15 ”

Raineman – you’ve got your numbers backwards there pal.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080415/AUTO01/804150350/1148

Agreed A4

And ZO6ified

Diesel delivers more mileage in part because it has more energy (and more hydrocarbons) per gallon than gasoline (about 15% I think, the other 15% comes from inherent engine design). That will likely cause some increase in price right there. It’s cheaper in Europe because of tax structures, from what I’ve read.

Most people look at HP numbers, which are lower in diesels than gas engines, instead of torque, which is higher in diesels. Diesels make sense in some cases, especially now with clean fuel, but it’s got an uphill climb in the U.S.

Toyota already sells 15% of its output as hybrids (Prius accounts for roughly half, Camry hybrid is next). Hybrid sales are now about 3% of total U.S. sales (2% last year). Where is diesel currently at?

Seeing what you guys have written in response to diesel prices, it has yet to help much any.

I did a little bit more research into off-road/red diesel prices fluxing. I found that immediately before hurricane Katrina about 6 months before, which has been cited as the biggest reason for diesel pricing going up and away, prices for off-road diesel spiked an average of 66 cents.

Even more interesting, I found that off-road diesel costs an average of only 6 cents less than on-road diesel in 2002, despite on-road diesel not being taxed and having more stringent processing.

To add to that twist, the US Protection Agency had been talking about one single kind of diesel fuel for on and off-road vehicles. Despite this, at the same time they had stated that only some 3% of vehicle emissions were from off-road diesel, but the main cause for concern was the environment, and complex managing of two separate fuels.

Once again, I’m curious about what’s going on here. It gets me extremely angry seeing other companies box me in like they’ve done, and it may be silly for me to be saying this on a message board, something would best need to be done about it.
It’s painfully obvious with more stringent vehicle emissions and fuel consumption, they saw this coming. All other countries, including Europe anticipated this, and most of their prices are caused by ridiculous, grotesque amounts of taxes, not shortage of supply. Even then, most sources I’ve read show that diesel consumption has actually been dropping slightly in America, growing economies like China and India are using quite a bit but nothing on the order of a few dollars jumps in a few years, and Europe has stayed relatively flat. In the housing market boom, diesel for machinery has gone up some, and for things like off-road diesel, but once again nothing to compensate for a couple dollars. Even in the advent of petrol going up, not to many people have converted to diesel, but most companies are anticipating to do so.

I’m gonna go pout and sulk =(

Despite the fact that diesel cost more for now, I will buy diesel car/truck as soon as it will be available. It cost the same or near the same at current prices of diesel to drive car with diesel or Otto engine. However, diesel is much more refined piece of machinery and much sturdier. Therefore the life expectancy is better then gasoline. The only way to recoup the cost of the car is to sell it and that is where diesel is far ahead of gasoline engine. Based on last year statistics Benz E class with diesel was fetching 5K more then gas based E class, yet it cost inly 1K extra new. VW was also fetching more then original 2.5K difference. Economically even with price disparity it make sense to diesel-up. But diesel also emits much lower levels of CO2 the most harmful pollutant.

I have a glass of diesel for an energy drink.

nerfer, 25 years ago 80% of Benzes were diesels in US. The brand was not suffering with luck of clients. Even BMW was selling diesel in US once upon a time. Today there are few diesel choices. From what I’ve read diesel cars had the shortest stay on dealers lots and have best re-sale. 5,000 Jeep diesels were pre-sold in days. And those engines (from Italy) are really sound crude. VW you can hear when it’s idling and diesel in Benz just sounds different, but not “clacking” any longer.
My guess that it is not taxes that are culprit in diesel fuel cost, but demand. If you look at price of gasoline and diesel on spot/features market the diesel will cost more and there are not taxes on exchange (i looked at mercantile in NYC). It is actual demand/supply which is good news: someone will want to make more money then competitor and make and sell more of the stuff.

Most people don’t understand the trading of diesel and unleaded gasoline with Europe. We ship loads and loads of diesel to Europe and bring back unleaded gas. This will stop when the demand here rises and the subsidies to the oil companies stop for doing it. It causes a major imbalence here in the states, and the diesel equation will stabilize with demand increases. Biodiesel is only going to be a 5 to 10% additive to refined diesel because of its water/organic content. The big advantage diesel has over gas is low RPM’s and high torque. By putting the current Hybrid technology with a small diesel, the MPG problems will be solved. Honda probably will be first with this platform. Others will follow.

First, the small Euro turbo diesels are radically different from from their US cousins [which are from the "truck diesel side of the family tree"]. How many domestic diesels do you know that redline above 4,000 RPM? Almost ALL Euro diesels do!

Now, please compare the UK Ford 2008 Focus 1.6 Duratec (116) M5 at 42.6 mpg(Imperial) combined cycle to the 1.6 Duratorq (109) M5 at 65.7 mpg(Imperial) combined cycle [I think this is "apples to apples", anybody know different?]. That is better than a 50% improvement in fuel economy! By the way that is almost 55 mpg(US) combined cycle!!!
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/

If we do not consider initial cost (just to keep it simple), with gasoline at $4 per gallon, diesel would retain the fuel cost per mile advantage until diesel reached $6 per gallon.
Try to figure out the cost savings of that diesel Astra against ANY of the the current Det3 US offerings!

Further … IF … only half of the US auto fleet were getting 44 mpg(US) average or better (Ford and GM/Opel/Vauxhall can SELL you 58 mpg(US) combined cycle vehicles in Europe today), the US oil imports for automotive fuel would be reduced more than 50%!That would put over USD$0.3 trillion annually JUST FOR IMPORTED OIL NOT PURCHASED! THAT IS $1,000 PER PERSON in the US PER YEAR!

Oh and, automotive emissions would be reduced by 25%.

The other interesting news is that FIAT is expected to market a 900 cc diesel electric hybrid [getting about 70 mpg(US) average] by 2012. Sorry “volt”.

So far as rate of acceptance goes, it will probably take about 24 months for people to begin to understand and accept these “new” small (under 2.0 liter) Euro style turbo diesels. After that, within 5 years diesel will probably make up more than 45% of new sales. These classes of vehicles WILL yank the bottom from under the traditional Det3 used vehicle values.

Just the way I see it …

All of you can have your diesels. I’ll stick with turbo gasoline engines.

Suburban story is false due to price.
A diesel engine option of $5,000 creates HUGE upfront costs.
You will NEVER recover the intial cost investment on fuel. Plus complex EPA mandated diesel engines will eat you alive in repairs.

Get real: You’ve got to compare lifetime maintenance costs.

Get real,
I agree that a turbo diesel will cost more. The price difference of the gas versus turbo diesel (with exhaust filter) Astra is under $1,500 in the UK. I have only a guess what NOx abatement to CARB standards would be … probably under $2,000 in high volume.
Need4SSpeed
I have no problem with turbo gasoline, particularly the HCCIs. However I believe you would probably be both surprised and please with the new Mercedes 2143 cc diesel scheduled for market introduction Fall 2008.
2143 cc C Class = 125-kW/170-hp [about 360 foot pounds torque] variant that is also newly available, the C Class returns even lower fuel figures of 5.1 litres for every 100 kilometres [rough guess about 46 mpg(US) combined cycle] propelling the C-Class Saloon from standstill to the 100-km/h mark in a mere 7.7 seconds
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/04/10/083833.html

When these plug ins come out with better battery capacity without catching on fire and costing $40K (Volt), that’s when you’ll see the spike in hybrid sales.

I say go for it! Although diesels are better with fuel mileage. For me i rather pay the extra for the diesel now and reak the benefits later. Motortrend, or was it Car And Driver magazine, tested an Audi A3 with a diesel and they got between 45-55mpg.

nestle_s
.
No surprise here! VCA rates one variation of the A3 at 52 mpg(US) combined cycle with 119 g/km CO2.
.
If you really want to have an idea what is out there try this link and look up the Ford and Vauxhall(GM) machines
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/