Drive Prius into a tree!

CAFE should be scrapped!

Toyota has grown a set!

Why are the environMENTALists bitching over 2 years and 3mpg for light trucks?

driver54

when I say “rational environmentalist,” what do you say?

To me this is interesting. Where GM/American companies have this gas guzzler reputation, Toyota and Honda have this eco friendly vibe. The reality is these new CAFE standards are arbitrary and don’t take needs into account. Toyota recognizes this and helps make that point, and the tree huggers are all over them.

I don’t know whether GM and Ford were sent similar letters (and that didn’t make the news), or they feel that Toyota should know better? This is a wierd story…

This article brought a big smile to my face. It is about time people realize that just because Toyota produces the Prius, it is not necessary such a conscious company. GM has had better mileage in many of their SUVs for quote some time.

More importantly, I think it is important that we see that they saw them as “socially conscious” as well. Come on…really? Those unionbusters sure are socially conscious. Please…

Toyota had the environmentalist cliche attached to it when their trucks were smaller and thus were sucking less gas. Now since they are gunning after after former domestic 3 their interest no longer intertwine with environment. Honda is still producing vehicles which consume less energy. There is nothing wrong with governing a bit of frugality in a society that is spoiled by waste. But I believe the market will do this policing by raising the price of fuel. This debate would be academic, if US fuel prices came close to European, and eventually they will.

here’s a honda that doesn’t suck up much gas

http://www.offroadvietnam.com/Images/accessories/gl1.jpg

so how about everyone thinks about this
when NONE of the major automakers meet such a goal, what is the government going to do? fine them? they cant develop a car in a day, or a week, or a month, or a year. especially a light truck that gets 35mpg – itll take time. So what will the government do? someone intelligently answer me that.

I really wish the environmentalists would shut their mouths. The proposed fleet average of 35 mpg by 2020 is simply not possible.

hahaha the greenie weenie`s golden champion has abondoned them.

So where are the Toyotapologists who before were slamming the US Big 3 and saying “while American manufacturers piss and moan, the Japanese just engineer to meet the legal requirements” ….?????
.
They gotta be here somewhere. Maybe over there … under that rock.

Captain, it’s possible, it’s just not realistic. If we all drove yarises (Yarii?) Fits and Aveos, 35 mpg would be a piece of cake.

But people would have to adopt Chinese family-size policies, and forget buying a new couch and bringing it home yourself

Diesel power would be the solution for that kind of mileage in light trucks.

Just about everyone here who are interested in automobile news cares about performance before fuel economy, so your responses are bias and not surprising at all.

Automakers have 13 years to work on the goal and really if they can’t make it, they aren’t going to close their factory doors. What’s disturbing is that they don’t even want to commit to meeting the goal.

xxxx the Environnemtalists. They always blame Cars for being the cause of all humanity’s problems. GET A LIFE !

I am with Toyota on this issue, but it is still scary to see how hipocritical they are being. They are supposed be ‘green green green”, not anti-CAFE

They are green green greenbacks.

I’m surprised that Toyota has joined the fight against CAFE. I am for CAFE, but I don’t see the big deal over an additional 2 years and 3 less mpg for light trucks. Meeting CAFE would be possible in 15 years if Americans would pull their heads out of their rears and realize we don’t need to drive Suburbans to work every day. If they released a diesel and hybrid versions of the Aveo, Yaris, Ford Festiva (when it comes out), Rabbit/Lupo, etc they should easily be able to hit CAFE by 2022. Small cars powered by diesels could hit 60+ mpg with todays technology.

RicardoHead, this is the first time Toyota joined the big 3. Honda didn’t. Perhaps Nissan will probably join the bitching as well since they want to sell their trucks. But, as I mentioned before, there is little of legalities that are new in new CAFE standards. They even exists now. Anybody who buys Lambo, Ferrari, big Benz and Bimmer pays guzzler tax. The same will apply in the future; there will be more consumers paying this tax for buying larger vehicles. It is fact of life in Europe and Industrialized Asia for years. The taxation in England is based on pollutants your vehicle produce in combination with fuel economy. It is cheaper to drive cars with diesel there. Basically, we are heading the same direction. Try to understand the cost of oil is going up, not down. If everybody here likes diesel, this CAFE resolution will force it on our domestic market.

If these stupid tree huggers are so concerned about emissions, they should stop listening to Al Gore and start walking everywhere they need to go. In the mean time, I’ll cherish every time my XJ-S reaches 15 mpg. Not every car is designed nor intended to get good fuel mileage. Who wants a 33 mpg Corvette? That just sounds lame to me. These tree huggers just aren’t being practical. A pickup isn’t supposed to be economical. It’s supposed to move a load of stuff around. And SUV’s. Originally, they were supposed to go off road and not get stuck. Now they are the cool alternative to a van. They are supposed to haul a bunch of people around not get 30 mpg. Instead of making laws that will cost millions of dollars to companies, dealers, and consumers, possibly billions once all is said and done, would we not be better off investing that money into researching alternate fuels/power sources?

Jaguar, majority of those tree huggers are fairly educated people and perhaps it is Al Gore who is listening to them and even using them for his political purposes, which is not a stupid move considering his Noble prize. I am not 100% agree with what they are saying and advocating even CAFE to raise the standard, but cost of oil will take of it on its own. When you will pay $5-6 /gallon you will cherish todays 15mpg of you XJ-S even more. There is nothing wrong with a truck to do its job ( haul, pull, whatever) and suck less fuel: diesel trucks do it. Most of the folks who use their trucks for work, not show off prefer diesel for its frugality and torque. Ditto SUVs. As you said in the past they were for off roading, now for kids delivery to soccer practice. I drove my kids to soccer practice and rarely saw van or SUV with more then 2 kids (one yours and neighbors). Can same be achieved in the car?
The cost of oil will adjust attitudes much better then CAFE and government. And I do think Al Gore could use of one Bills’ cigars to loosen up a bit.

I guess Al Gore’s winning a Nobel Prize puts him in the same league with Yassir Arafat, the Nobel Peace …cough cough… Prize winner.

But I thought that toyota was the car company that was going to save the planet. What with its tundras that get 11mpg and massive suvs that suck the same amount. Their cars and trucks all get 2 or 3 times the milage that american cars get don’t they? LOLOLOLOL

The impression the Honda is more efficent than Toyota is BARELY true. Honda’s CAFE is .1 MPG better than Toyota. And Honda does not sell a full line of vehicles. This means that Toyota has alomst the exact same CAFE rating as Honda while selling the hugh SUVs and trucks that they do.

The only reasons why Honda is not against the bill is because Toyota is doing the dirty work for them. Whatever is going to happen to the CAFe system will happen. Honda PR doesn’t have to spend the money. Also, Honda has less to lose compared to Toyota. Somewhat smart on their behalf, yet they are as much to blame as anyone else.

Surprise, surprise, Toyota wants to stay in business too.

CA: They want to stay in business, so they want to make vehicles people want to buy. People don’t want 35 mpg vehicles.

Or at least, fuel-economy isn’t as high on most drivers’ lists as safety, creature comforts and utility

Autonut, I must disagree with you. While these tree-huggers may possess a high IQ, they are not intelligent. Tree huggers are idealists who do not exist in the same world as we do, for somehow they are able to ignore REALITY. They do so because, of course, idealism sounds so much prettier. Heck, I would be a liberal too if it were possible to magically create a world in which there is never a need for war just by holding a cardboard sign in the air on a busy intersection on Mondays and Tuesdays after work, or if a solution for pollution could be created simply by passing some bills in government, and all the worlds social injustices could be cured simply by writing articles about them. But alas, my mind won’t let me ignore that little factor called reality.

The truth is finally emerging…hey, guess what? Toy Ota doesn’t give a sh*t about you, tree-huggers! Oh noes!!1!11!!! Face it punks, y’all have been blinded by Toy Ota’s marketing campaign into buying one of their “green” cars. Sad thing is, they fooled the mainstream media and all those mindless sheep who follow them. Good thing is, Toy Ota’s market share is dropping rapidly which means they’ve finally been unmasked: just another corporation trying to make a quick buck. The only way left to go is down, b*tches!

RicardoHead, so true.

Cyclone of Red, so true. I work in the environmental division of a civil engineering firm and you wouldn’t believe what some of these whack-jobs do and believe. At lunches, one girl dumps everybody’s left over water into the restaurant’s plants so there is no waste. There are even signs posted on the ofice light switches reminding us to “reduce our carbon footprint”.

you know what? **** enviromentalists

You know what else? **** everything. Every man for himself.

YEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

TOYOTA FACING INTENSE PRESSURE….I HOPE THEW COME TO AN CONCLUSION.

deantj: That was funny:
Now don’t get between me and that Moose. Either we can both eat today, or I can eat today and tommorow.

jack mabey we should just eat the enviornmentalists, they are well fed on vegatarian diets and bet they taste great with a little BBQ sauce.

I’m not really into this whole global warming thing (indeed, we are in the middle of three different natural “warming cycles” at the same time, and in certain parts of the world it’s actually getting colder), but I do agree that we should take care of the enviroment.

35 miles to the gallon wouldn’t be so hard if:

1.) Trucks were made lighter. Maybe part unibody trucks will be the answer, with a still replacable bed (it’s an idea I’ve had in my mind for quite some time).

2.) Smaller, more efficient engines. This includes diesel engines.

3.) More aerodynamic designs. Use plastic underbodies, not only is it more aerodynamic but could be advertised as tougher and corrosion resistant.

4.) Downsize the “small”-size truck market, which has grown to where small sized trucks(or mid-size, whatever you’d like to say) are as large as full size trucks were 10 years ago. The Ford Ranger is about the only real “small size” pick-up on the market now.

All of those could probably boost the general mpg numbers by 5 to 10 miles to the gallon, and I don’t see most of those options being very expensive (maybe the first one, but I wouldn’t be able to make a good guess).

I love how people like 1115 are always present in any domestic-related thread (or any thread in which they can bash the domestics) but they are never present in ones like these. “Toy sales down.” “Honda recalls 200000 cars” “Toy is going against its greeness” – all those are domestic hater-free (however, this is where the import haters like to hang out).

I was in every thread whetehr it be negative or positive to Toyota or Honda I think you need to stop fabricating lies
Im not anti Domestic I’m just pro superior product. You can base your car on desire or patriotism or concern for Americans losing their jobs but I base my decision on reliability resale and build quality
On top of that I think Japanese cars look better inside and out but thats subjective. I know you domestic dick riders are mad at the Japanese for making better products and kicking your precious domestics asses in sales reliability and resale. Blame the domestics for making crap
Any little thing that goes wrong with Toyota or Honda you exaggerate as if the Japanese are perfect. I never said the Japanese were perfect, I just said they make a better product.
As long as the Japanese make a better more reliable product I will chime in to remind you of that. Keep up your pro domestics patriotic crap but you know who makes the better product

In 2022 GM may have a competitive product

I want you to do one of two things:
1. Either show me when did I EVER say that “I base my decision on patriotism of concern for Americans losing their jobs” (as in QUOTE me and give me a link to where I said that)
2. or STOP saying that I did because that is NOT true.

What kind of patriot am I if I drive a BMW?? That does not support what you are saying, and no one knows my reasons for debating this better than I, myself. My reasons are that I don’t want to listen to ignorant people like you anymore bash domestics for no reason. I don’t want to stand by while Toy is winning over your heart and mind with crap like the Prius and shows ‘concern for the environment’ and then turns around and is against CAFE. I don’t want people to be thinking that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Japan makes has better quality than the European and American competition while at the same time Japan has issued the highest recalls this year for things like wheels falling off. High quality? I don’t think so. And I want people to become smarter and shop for a car by shopping all the worthy choices. Do I care if you buy a Toyonda? No! But I do care if you do it because ’someone told you’ they are high quality or because of the cars Japan build 10 years ago (or you refuse to buy American because your casette player broke in your last domestic car 20 years AGO).

The Japanese are not kicking anyones ass in sales, reliability, or resale.
1. Domestics hold the majority of the United States car market.
2. It is a MYTH that Japan makes quality cars. It was true in the 90s. Nowdays, Buick is tied with Lexus on the reliability studies.
3. The Europeans (chiefly Mini Coopers and VWs) have higher resales than Japan. For example, the BMW I am trading in for my DI CTS has kept more of its value than a comparable Japanese car. So if you want high resales, buy European.

2022? That is 15 years away. You know I don’t care if you ever buy domestic, but if you wait bought all the Japan-is-great bull**** in what…less than 10 years? Why should it take 15 years for Detroit to “re-establish itself”? I don’t know, maybe you can only afford to buy a new car every 15 years..

Commodore it’s quite clear you hate everything Japanese, we get it, you don’t have to write an essay about in every god damned news comment.

1. You want people to consider buying GM you have said it MANY times- our first argument was over a month ago. I doubt the article is up and I can say what I want. It bothers you that I and most consumers don’t consider GM Ford and Chrysler when purchasing new cars.

2. Domestics build the majority of cars and they should have the majority BC they are larger companies. If this is true then why is it that Toyota outsells them with the Camry and Honda with the Accord and Civic? Don’t give me that “they made quality cars 15 years ago” ****. They simply made better cars then and still do now. Why would they stop now? More importantly why can’t GM Ford or Chrysler counter them and make a better product?

3. I want high resale value; build quality, reliability and AFFORDABILITY. The Europeans seem to have no idea of what affordability is. Bavarian Motor Works made that ****ty little 1 series and they are charging 46k for a 335i coupe. Ridiculous! Your BMW is overpriced and the Japanese are just as reliable and in some cases more reliable than the Europeans. Unfortunately we are not talking about them we are talking about the inferiority of GM, Ford and Chrysler

The year 2022 will give GM Ford & Chrysler enough time with their new models to prove themselves. If the domestics outsell the Japanese, out last and out rely the Japanese then I will be convinced. I barely keep cars for 5 years let alone 15 but I’m different and even if I did keep cars for 15 years it wouldn’t matter. Can you show me one 15 year old GM that has a higher resale or is more reliable than any comparable Honda or Toyota? Are there any GMs out there that have the same name as 15 years ago?
Japan still makes better cars today and the Civic is safer than comparable Cobalt and even a Corvette that has a roof that flies off. Do I have to mention the MILLIONS…and Millions of trucks that GM recalled for braking problems? How about the Lucerne and DTS catching on fire dues to leaky ps fluid?

Keep dreaming but dreaming wont help GM building a reliable product that can last will!

Actually Commodore, post away (not that you need my permission). You were right on point with every issue you mentioned. I feel the same way about the ‘Toyonda is great’ types who feel they have some superior intellect when most of what they say is pure nonsense.

1115, seems Hyundai is beating the Accord with their Sonata … if I kept cars as long as some people, I’d buy a Sonata and keep several thousands in my pocket at purchase, invest it, and have a ten year warranty. Oh, and it’s more attractive.

As for your Corvette complaint, which I agree is unacceptable, I’d rather have my roof fly off than have my Civic’s wheel fall off. Oh, and that Civic looks like a ****in’ Battlestar Gallactica lunar explorer … what a joke.

Can you provide evidence that the Sonata is outselling the Accord? It seems like you just made that up for the argument.

I like Hyundai and I think they are the next Toyota. The difference is Honda and Toyota have a reliability record and Hyundai has to prove along with the domestics. The domestics are in trouble not Hyundai Honda or Toyota. The Sonata is not more attractive than the Accord in my opinion, all Hyundai did was copy the last Accord and current TL. It looks good but not great and they need to improve the interior also.

The new Civic interior freaks me out but it’s a Civic and had the highest resale value of any car until the TSX took that spot. The 2 door is great looking, the four door not so great in my opinion but its better than the Focus, the Caliber and the Cobalt (which has safety issues as well). Resale reliability and being a #1 seller is not a joke.

Seems like a roof flying off is dangerous and for a 40k plus sports car that’s not cool

1. It is NOT about patriotism. No matter how many time you say it is, I KNOW why I am debating you and it is NOT about patriotism. If I was some redneck patriot I’d be driving a Chevy or Ford, I drive a BMW. It is about your IGNORANCE.
2. Stop trying to pass off Toyonda are SMALL companies. That was true 30 years ago, today they are BIGGER than Gm and Ford. Toyota for example, has a market capitalization of 400 BILLION, compared to around 25 BILLION for GM. How can you call Toyota a small company??
3. With my BMW, I get what I pay for. My point is that you try to pass off the Japanese as superior in resale, when in fact they are NOT. Europeans rules resale values, not Japan.

It is unfair (to you) to wait 15 years in ignorance. Japan won your heart in a lot less than 15 years. So why does GM have to go 15 years? Fortunately, it is just you that needs 15 years to be convinced, alot of people are already convinced. IT IS IN THE PAST. At least I give you recalls from TODAY!! Honda wheels falling off TODAY, sludge problems in 3.5 MILLION Toys TODAY, lies about the Prius TODAY, recalling 500,000+ gas-guzzling Toy SUVs TODAY.

What happens TODAY is more relevant than what happened in the PAST

1. This about you wanting me and consumers to consider American. Sorry buddy not going to happen. If you drive a BMW you are a hypocrite for telling everyone else to consider American when you haven’t. This about you not practicing what you preach.

2. Toyota and Honda are large now but still not as big as GM. The “Big 3 “lost money and are now smaller due to inferior product and poor money management. Where’s the money going? It’s not going to R & D

3. With your BMW, you get a car that is overpriced and could have gotten something for less money but you wanted a BMW. I understand, I will probably overpay for one in the future. My point is that Japanese are just as, if not more reliable and luxurious for less money. Europeans rules resale values, but Honda has the car with the highest resale value not BMW. Either way it’s not the domestics

It is perfectly fair for me to wait 15 years so GM can prove themselves. Japan doesn’t have my heart they just have the best product. A lot of people are not convinced and those who are convinced are too trusting of an unworthy domestic companies. IT IS IN THE PAST BUT THE PAST IS THE BEST PREDICTOR OF THE FUTURE. I gave you recent recalls from 2002-2006 and you are greatly exaggerating the sludge issue (non issue) and GM has a higher caliber car that has a faulty roof and trucks with real brake problems. The Prius isn’t a lie and GM has the gas guzzlers not Toyota. I don’t know where that came from

What happens in the past shows the direction that a company will go in today. When GM proves themselves in 2022 they may be on my list
TODAY, GM still sells crap!

I did not state the Sonata sells or sold more, only that it is beating the Accord on the three measures I mentioned. The difference in reliability is negligible, the difference in price is too wide, the warranty is no comparison, and the Sonata looks better OBJECTIVELY (your bias is clouding your judgement, I understand).

See, neither car is interesting to me and I will not consider either but for those in that market, the Sonata is clearly the winner.

tripleonefluffer:
“Im (sic) not anti Domestic (sic) I’m just pro superior (sic)product.”

I think it’s fair to say that you are anti-domestic. No nuance to it at all. As for being “pro-superior product,” you drive an accord. What’s an accord superior to? A Civic? Good answer.

“I base my decision on reliability … and build quality.” Again, how do you come up with an accord, if those are your selection factors?

“I think Japanese cars look better inside and out but thats subjective.” Missing an apostrophe, but that’s an intelligent sentence, though again you generalize.

“On top of that I know you domestic dick riders are mad at the Japanese for making better products and kicking your precious domestics asses in sales reliability and resale.”
More generalization.

“In 2022 GM may have a competitive product.” I hope not.

Commodore: You can be a patriot and drive a BMW. That’s a nonsense argument. When people can’t beat you with their poor logic, they just try to beat you by insulting you. Again, facts will conquer prejudice.

Buick is tied with Toyota’s faux-luxury divisian according to that idiot John David Power. Truthfully, Buick would trail probably three or four european companies and Caddy.

Fluffer
“It bothers you that I and most consumers don’t consider GM Ford and Chrysler when purchasing new cars. ”
That’s a(nother) retarted statement.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/09/september-car-s.html
Last month (September 2007) 51.9 percent of new cars sold were domestic brands. Those are just the ones that were bought. I assume many of those buyers, unlike you with your honda-tinted glasses, CONSIDERED at least one other model.
So, your statement is wrong, just on sales.

” I want high resale value; build quality, reliability and AFFORDABILITY.”

Again, that doesn’t add up to an accord.

“More importantly why can’t GM Ford or Chrysler counter them and make a better product?” Same reason the Patriots can’t go 6-0

“Your BMW is overpriced and the Japanese are just as reliable and in some cases more reliable than the Europeans. Unfortunately we are not talking about them we are talking about the inferiority of GM, Ford and Chrysler.”

Actually, this is an article about toyota and CAFE.

Are there any GMs out there that have the same name as 15 years ago? Yeah, the Accord/Vigor/TL

“the Civic is safer than comparable Cobalt.”
Don’t insult the Cobalt like that, and they’re all safe until you crash them.

“1115, seems Hyundai is beating the Accord with their Sonata … if I kept cars as long as some people, I’d buy a Sonata and keep several thousands in my pocket at purchase, invest it, and have a ten year warranty. Oh, and it’s more attractive.”

The (astute) guy I sat next to in Nebraska came to that same conclusion. The sonata is a better car.

1115:
“I like Hyundai and I think they are the next Toyota.”
I think they have higher aspirations than that.

“The 2 door is great looking, the four door not so great in my opinion but its better than the Focus, the Caliber and the Cobalt (which has safety issues as well).
That explains your career choice. Anything else would increase the chances of drug testing, and with that kind of thinking, there’s no way you’d pass.

Commodore: The world needs people like the Fluffer

1115: “With your BMW, you get a car that is overpriced and could have gotten something for less money.”
With your accord, you could’ve gotten something BETTER for less money.

“What happens in the past shows the direction that a company will go in today.”
Yeah, that’s why hyundai makes the crappy little excel.

I think 1115 works for Consumer Reports…

‘jjt’, it’s like communicating with Helen Keller.

YOU ****EN RETARD 1115

I just told you that Toy has a market cap of 400 BILLION compared to only about 25 BILLION for GM!! How can you STILL try to pass off Japanese carmakers as the “tiny little guys that are beating the big boys”?? TOYODA IS BIGGER THAN GM. The size of a company isn’t determined by how many divisions or cars it sells, but rather HOW MANY it sells and WHAT IS ITS MARKET CAPITALIZATION. How old are you (seriously, I want to know).

And you are STILL calling me a patriot. I suppose I am and that is not something I am ashamed of, but I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT WANTS ANYONE TO BUY A CAR BECAUSE ITS AMERICAN. I am arguing with you because you are STUBBORN & IGNORANT. You represent the sizable demographic of people that have been won over by Japan thanks to their cars from 10 years ago.

You are correct that the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX has the highest resale (according to the things we have looked at). However, that does not mean that Honda as a whole has better resales than everyone. Unlike Honda which has a few high-resale cars, BMW has MANY from the Mini Cooper to the 5 series and practically every other car in their lineup. VW also has a lot of high resale cars. That makes Europeans as a whole have a higher resale than Japan. By the way, Toyota makes just as many gas guzzlers as GM – from the 4Runner to the Sequiya to the GX470 to the Tundra and the Land Cruiser. The only difference is that they don’t sell those cars because domestic SUVs are better than foreign SUVs.

JJT you are an idiot. I dont drive an Accord and If I did I would say so. You are liar and you are also Impulsive and AMGoff. Have the decency to spread your bull**** posts in different names. making fun of Helen Keller now too huh ? Good move

Commodore If GM was the one of the Big 3 in the 80’s then why are they in the position they are in now ? You and a lot of “good old boys” are mad that the Japanese beat the domestics at the car game. The domestics are to blame not Toyota and Honda Hahaha

Comparing Japanese to European cars is good but either way they are both better than domestics. You are trying to change the subject again my patriotic friend. If you want people to consider American you should be driving one.
See ya in 2022 and ma

Ok, you know how some people here claim that you drive an Accord even though you say you don’t? Don’t be one of those people that claims I am patriotic because I am telling you (for the 12th time now) that I am not. Also, your “see ya in 2022″ ‘catchphrase’ is becoming redundant – time for a new one!

Now on to the good stuff. I did not change the subject. You said that Japan had the best resales out of everyone and, since I like to be fair, I pointed out that you were wrong.
Also, you were wrong trying to pass off Toyonda as a ‘tiny little comoany’ as I just proved to you. Do you realize how simple it would be to admit that you were wrong about and move on rather than continue to argue about it?

Fluffer: You’re generalizing again. If you keep saying your accord is not an accord, eventually, you’ll convince yourself.

I doubt you’ll be able to convince me or Motor Trend

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0410_2004_acura_tl/

Commodore: the Fluffer is not calling you patriotic, per say. He’s using “patriotic” as an insult.

1115: “You are liar” (sic)
You are illiterate accord driver.