I doubt you’ll be able to convince me or Motor Trend

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0410_2004_acura_tl/

Commodore: the Fluffer is not calling you patriotic, per say. He’s using “patriotic” as an insult.

1115: “You are liar” (sic)
You are illiterate accord driver.

Now on to the good stuff. I did not change the subject. You said that Japan had the best resales out of everyone and, since I like to be fair, I pointed out that you were wrong.
Also, you were wrong trying to pass off Toyonda as a ‘tiny little comoany’ as I just proved to you. Do you realize how simple it would be to admit that you were wrong about and move on rather than continue to argue about it?

Commodore If GM was the one of the Big 3 in the 80’s then why are they in the position they are in now ? You and a lot of “good old boys” are mad that the Japanese beat the domestics at the car game. The domestics are to blame not Toyota and Honda Hahaha

Comparing Japanese to European cars is good but either way they are both better than domestics. You are trying to change the subject again my patriotic friend. If you want people to consider American you should be driving one.
See ya in 2022 and ma

I just told you that Toy has a market cap of 400 BILLION compared to only about 25 BILLION for GM!! How can you STILL try to pass off Japanese carmakers as the “tiny little guys that are beating the big boys”?? TOYODA IS BIGGER THAN GM. The size of a company isn’t determined by how many divisions or cars it sells, but rather HOW MANY it sells and WHAT IS ITS MARKET CAPITALIZATION. How old are you (seriously, I want to know).

And you are STILL calling me a patriot. I suppose I am and that is not something I am ashamed of, but I AM NOT ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT WANTS ANYONE TO BUY A CAR BECAUSE ITS AMERICAN. I am arguing with you because you are STUBBORN & IGNORANT. You represent the sizable demographic of people that have been won over by Japan thanks to their cars from 10 years ago.

You are correct that the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX has the highest resale (according to the things we have looked at). However, that does not mean that Honda as a whole has better resales than everyone. Unlike Honda which has a few high-resale cars, BMW has MANY from the Mini Cooper to the 5 series and practically every other car in their lineup. VW also has a lot of high resale cars. That makes Europeans as a whole have a higher resale than Japan. By the way, Toyota makes just as many gas guzzlers as GM – from the 4Runner to the Sequiya to the GX470 to the Tundra and the Land Cruiser. The only difference is that they don’t sell those cars because domestic SUVs are better than foreign SUVs.

Again, that doesn’t add up to an accord.

“More importantly why can’t GM Ford or Chrysler counter them and make a better product?” Same reason the Patriots can’t go 6-0

“Your BMW is overpriced and the Japanese are just as reliable and in some cases more reliable than the Europeans. Unfortunately we are not talking about them we are talking about the inferiority of GM, Ford and Chrysler.”

Actually, this is an article about toyota and CAFE.

Are there any GMs out there that have the same name as 15 years ago? Yeah, the Accord/Vigor/TL

“the Civic is safer than comparable Cobalt.”
Don’t insult the Cobalt like that, and they’re all safe until you crash them.

“1115, seems Hyundai is beating the Accord with their Sonata … if I kept cars as long as some people, I’d buy a Sonata and keep several thousands in my pocket at purchase, invest it, and have a ten year warranty. Oh, and it’s more attractive.”

The (astute) guy I sat next to in Nebraska came to that same conclusion. The sonata is a better car.

1115:
“I like Hyundai and I think they are the next Toyota.”
I think they have higher aspirations than that.

“The 2 door is great looking, the four door not so great in my opinion but its better than the Focus, the Caliber and the Cobalt (which has safety issues as well).
That explains your career choice. Anything else would increase the chances of drug testing, and with that kind of thinking, there’s no way you’d pass.

Commodore: The world needs people like the Fluffer

1115: “With your BMW, you get a car that is overpriced and could have gotten something for less money.”
With your accord, you could’ve gotten something BETTER for less money.

“What happens in the past shows the direction that a company will go in today.”
Yeah, that’s why hyundai makes the crappy little excel.

I think it’s fair to say that you are anti-domestic. No nuance to it at all. As for being “pro-superior product,” you drive an accord. What’s an accord superior to? A Civic? Good answer.

“I base my decision on reliability … and build quality.” Again, how do you come up with an accord, if those are your selection factors?

“I think Japanese cars look better inside and out but thats subjective.” Missing an apostrophe, but that’s an intelligent sentence, though again you generalize.

“On top of that I know you domestic dick riders are mad at the Japanese for making better products and kicking your precious domestics asses in sales reliability and resale.”
More generalization.

“In 2022 GM may have a competitive product.” I hope not.

Commodore: You can be a patriot and drive a BMW. That’s a nonsense argument. When people can’t beat you with their poor logic, they just try to beat you by insulting you. Again, facts will conquer prejudice.

Buick is tied with Toyota’s faux-luxury divisian according to that idiot John David Power. Truthfully, Buick would trail probably three or four european companies and Caddy.

Fluffer
“It bothers you that I and most consumers don’t consider GM Ford and Chrysler when purchasing new cars. ”
That’s a(nother) retarted statement.
http://www.autoobserver.com/2007/09/september-car-s.html
Last month (September 2007) 51.9 percent of new cars sold were domestic brands. Those are just the ones that were bought. I assume many of those buyers, unlike you with your honda-tinted glasses, CONSIDERED at least one other model.
So, your statement is wrong, just on sales.

See, neither car is interesting to me and I will not consider either but for those in that market, the Sonata is clearly the winner.

2. Toyota and Honda are large now but still not as big as GM. The “Big 3 “lost money and are now smaller due to inferior product and poor money management. Where’s the money going? It’s not going to R & D

3. With your BMW, you get a car that is overpriced and could have gotten something for less money but you wanted a BMW. I understand, I will probably overpay for one in the future. My point is that Japanese are just as, if not more reliable and luxurious for less money. Europeans rules resale values, but Honda has the car with the highest resale value not BMW. Either way it’s not the domestics

It is perfectly fair for me to wait 15 years so GM can prove themselves. Japan doesn’t have my heart they just have the best product. A lot of people are not convinced and those who are convinced are too trusting of an unworthy domestic companies. IT IS IN THE PAST BUT THE PAST IS THE BEST PREDICTOR OF THE FUTURE. I gave you recent recalls from 2002-2006 and you are greatly exaggerating the sludge issue (non issue) and GM has a higher caliber car that has a faulty roof and trucks with real brake problems. The Prius isn’t a lie and GM has the gas guzzlers not Toyota. I don’t know where that came from

What happens in the past shows the direction that a company will go in today. When GM proves themselves in 2022 they may be on my list
TODAY, GM still sells crap!

It is unfair (to you) to wait 15 years in ignorance. Japan won your heart in a lot less than 15 years. So why does GM have to go 15 years? Fortunately, it is just you that needs 15 years to be convinced, alot of people are already convinced. IT IS IN THE PAST. At least I give you recalls from TODAY!! Honda wheels falling off TODAY, sludge problems in 3.5 MILLION Toys TODAY, lies about the Prius TODAY, recalling 500,000+ gas-guzzling Toy SUVs TODAY.

What happens TODAY is more relevant than what happened in the PAST

I like Hyundai and I think they are the next Toyota. The difference is Honda and Toyota have a reliability record and Hyundai has to prove along with the domestics. The domestics are in trouble not Hyundai Honda or Toyota. The Sonata is not more attractive than the Accord in my opinion, all Hyundai did was copy the last Accord and current TL. It looks good but not great and they need to improve the interior also.

The new Civic interior freaks me out but it’s a Civic and had the highest resale value of any car until the TSX took that spot. The 2 door is great looking, the four door not so great in my opinion but its better than the Focus, the Caliber and the Cobalt (which has safety issues as well). Resale reliability and being a #1 seller is not a joke.

Seems like a roof flying off is dangerous and for a 40k plus sports car that’s not cool

As for your Corvette complaint, which I agree is unacceptable, I’d rather have my roof fly off than have my Civic’s wheel fall off. Oh, and that Civic looks like a ****in’ Battlestar Gallactica lunar explorer … what a joke.

2. Domestics build the majority of cars and they should have the majority BC they are larger companies. If this is true then why is it that Toyota outsells them with the Camry and Honda with the Accord and Civic? Don’t give me that “they made quality cars 15 years ago” ****. They simply made better cars then and still do now. Why would they stop now? More importantly why can’t GM Ford or Chrysler counter them and make a better product?

3. I want high resale value; build quality, reliability and AFFORDABILITY. The Europeans seem to have no idea of what affordability is. Bavarian Motor Works made that ****ty little 1 series and they are charging 46k for a 335i coupe. Ridiculous! Your BMW is overpriced and the Japanese are just as reliable and in some cases more reliable than the Europeans. Unfortunately we are not talking about them we are talking about the inferiority of GM, Ford and Chrysler

The year 2022 will give GM Ford & Chrysler enough time with their new models to prove themselves. If the domestics outsell the Japanese, out last and out rely the Japanese then I will be convinced. I barely keep cars for 5 years let alone 15 but I’m different and even if I did keep cars for 15 years it wouldn’t matter. Can you show me one 15 year old GM that has a higher resale or is more reliable than any comparable Honda or Toyota? Are there any GMs out there that have the same name as 15 years ago?
Japan still makes better cars today and the Civic is safer than comparable Cobalt and even a Corvette that has a roof that flies off. Do I have to mention the MILLIONS…and Millions of trucks that GM recalled for braking problems? How about the Lucerne and DTS catching on fire dues to leaky ps fluid?

Keep dreaming but dreaming wont help GM building a reliable product that can last will!

What kind of patriot am I if I drive a BMW?? That does not support what you are saying, and no one knows my reasons for debating this better than I, myself. My reasons are that I don’t want to listen to ignorant people like you anymore bash domestics for no reason. I don’t want to stand by while Toy is winning over your heart and mind with crap like the Prius and shows ‘concern for the environment’ and then turns around and is against CAFE. I don’t want people to be thinking that ANYTHING and EVERYTHING Japan makes has better quality than the European and American competition while at the same time Japan has issued the highest recalls this year for things like wheels falling off. High quality? I don’t think so. And I want people to become smarter and shop for a car by shopping all the worthy choices. Do I care if you buy a Toyonda? No! But I do care if you do it because ’someone told you’ they are high quality or because of the cars Japan build 10 years ago (or you refuse to buy American because your casette player broke in your last domestic car 20 years AGO).

The Japanese are not kicking anyones ass in sales, reliability, or resale.
1. Domestics hold the majority of the United States car market.
2. It is a MYTH that Japan makes quality cars. It was true in the 90s. Nowdays, Buick is tied with Lexus on the reliability studies.
3. The Europeans (chiefly Mini Coopers and VWs) have higher resales than Japan. For example, the BMW I am trading in for my DI CTS has kept more of its value than a comparable Japanese car. So if you want high resales, buy European.

2022? That is 15 years away. You know I don’t care if you ever buy domestic, but if you wait bought all the Japan-is-great bull**** in what…less than 10 years? Why should it take 15 years for Detroit to “re-establish itself”? I don’t know, maybe you can only afford to buy a new car every 15 years..

In 2022 GM may have a competitive product

35 miles to the gallon wouldn’t be so hard if:

1.) Trucks were made lighter. Maybe part unibody trucks will be the answer, with a still replacable bed (it’s an idea I’ve had in my mind for quite some time).

2.) Smaller, more efficient engines. This includes diesel engines.

3.) More aerodynamic designs. Use plastic underbodies, not only is it more aerodynamic but could be advertised as tougher and corrosion resistant.

4.) Downsize the “small”-size truck market, which has grown to where small sized trucks(or mid-size, whatever you’d like to say) are as large as full size trucks were 10 years ago. The Ford Ranger is about the only real “small size” pick-up on the market now.

All of those could probably boost the general mpg numbers by 5 to 10 miles to the gallon, and I don’t see most of those options being very expensive (maybe the first one, but I wouldn’t be able to make a good guess).

Cyclone of Red, so true. I work in the environmental division of a civil engineering firm and you wouldn’t believe what some of these whack-jobs do and believe. At lunches, one girl dumps everybody’s left over water into the restaurant’s plants so there is no waste. There are even signs posted on the ofice light switches reminding us to “reduce our carbon footprint”.

Or at least, fuel-economy isn’t as high on most drivers’ lists as safety, creature comforts and utility

The only reasons why Honda is not against the bill is because Toyota is doing the dirty work for them. Whatever is going to happen to the CAFe system will happen. Honda PR doesn’t have to spend the money. Also, Honda has less to lose compared to Toyota. Somewhat smart on their behalf, yet they are as much to blame as anyone else.