Can’t see how this would help either GM or Chrysler.. Unless they wait for the loans, why not put Ford in as well, the whole bundle will have sunk in 5 years max.

Makes more sense for Renault to buy Chrysler than GM or Ford. Renault wants to enter the US market. They’ve tried before and failed misterably. The “cheaper” way is to buy Chrysler for a fire sale price (Cerberus wants to get out while they still can….) and I don’t see how there is any synergy for a Big 3 to swallow up one of itself to “gain” anything advantageous. While Jeep may have value, what does owning the rights to the Sebring, 300c, Avenger, etc …. gain to the GM or Ford and their products? Talk about overlap!

As a massive AMC fan, it’s interesting to see history repeating itself.

The XJ Cherokee was designed by AMC in response to rapidly increasing fuel prices in the late ’70s and early ’80s. It became an evergreen smash hit that managed to stay competitve for 18 seasons.

It is interesting that at this stage, there is a Renault connection, as well. Renault-Nissan is working on a small Chrysler, just like AMC and Renault collaborated on small cars in the early ’80s (Alliance/9 and Encore/11), and then moved to midsize (Medallion/21) and large cars (Premier/25) by the late ’80s, while the only 100% AMC-engineered vehicles were their Jeeps and the evergreen Eagle. Just like the only 100% Chrysler-engineered vehicles these days are the BOF trucks/SUVs, the Jeeps (save the Compass and Patriot), the Viper, and the minivans. The rest of their line is either Mitsubishi or Mercedes-Benz-derived.

Anyway, GM taking on Jeep and merging it with Hummer, and rebadging the minivans (probably one as a Chevy and the other as a Saturn or Buick), would probably work out best. The next-gen LX platform might be a good, and less expensive, source for larger rear-drive vehicles than the Aussie-sourced Zeta. But beyond that, it’s hard to see how GM benefits from taking on another troubled company when it’s struggling itself.

Renault has Nissan in the American market, and they seem to be fine with that.

However, a Fiat-Chrysler tie-up might be better. Then again, Fiat is just getting back to profitability after verging on oblivion just 4 short years ago.

Losing AMC was one thing in that they were already more or less a non-entity aside from Jeep when that deal was done. Chrysler, on the other hand, does have relevant vehicles outside of the Jeep brand: Grand Caravan, 300/Charger, Challlenger and Ram trucks being the stalwarts. Whatever you might think of Chrysler products, it would be nothing short of a travesty to let the Chrysler and Dodge marques die. I hope Ghosn is serious. We know Chrysler and Nissan are already in bed together and Renault/Nissan has the financial wherewithal to make this happen. Although Ghosn hasn’t come right out and said so I have to believe his vision is broader than Gm’s, and that the Chrysler and Dodge brands would not entirely disappear from the automotive landscape.

Th only point of GM buying Chrysler would be to shutdown production of all the competitive models so that GM would only have Ford as a domestic rival. Maybe they would keep a few going but not many.

… suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now I know that it’s too late, and…
.
M.A.S.H.

Thank you for being a friend
Travel down the road and back again
your heart is true, your a pal and a confidant
And if you threw a party,
Invited everyone you knew,
You would see the biggest gift would be from me and the card attached would say,
Thank you for being a friend.

The Golden Girls (sorry LLLL#3)

Making your way in the world today takes everything you’ve got.
Taking a break from all your worries, sure would help a lot.
Wouldn’t you like to get away?
Sometimes you want to go
Where everybody knows your name,
and they’re always glad you came.
You wanna be where you can see,
our troubles are all the same
You wanna be where everybody knows
Your name.
You wanna go where people know,
people are all the same,
You wanna go where everybody knows
your name.

.

Cheers

.

I figured since you guys did it…

Now the world don’t move to the beat of just one drum
What might be right for you may not be right for some
A man is born, he’s a man of means
Then along come two, they got nothing but their jeans

But they got Diff’rent Strokes
It takes Diff’rent Strokes
It takes Diff’rent Strokes to move the world

Now everybody’s got a special kind of story
Everybody finds a way to shine
But no matter what you got, not a lot? So what?
They’ll have theirs, and you’ll have yours, and I’ll have mine
And together we’ll be fine

Cause it takes Diff’rent Strokes to move the world
Yes it does
It takes Diff’rent Strokes to move the world

im sorry but there is no way in hell that GM would let dodge die, three words
Charger
Caravan
RAM
Maybe chrysler as a model line would die, they dont bring much to the table except rebadged Town and Countrys and maybe the 300, but i think they can fare without it.
The new RAM would be positioned as a cushier alternative to a Silverado with its new rear suspension and there are people out there that SWEAR BY the Cummins turbodiesel in the 2500 and 3500 models, and they should as its arguably the best of the big 3’s heavy duty’s. And GM is not going to kill the Duramax name either. I just couldnt see Dodge disappearing, they have just as much value as Jeep… they just have things like the Gremlin… i mean Caliber.

Nor are they going to kill the Hemi name or take it for themselves/leave it only with jeep. The SRT product line is right up the SuperSport’s alley, something dodge in particular has taken a strong adhesion to compared to the chrysler line. SRT-4, SRT-8, SRT-10 models all exist and they have had SRT-6 models in and out of the pipeline for things like the Nitro and such for a bit. AMC didnt have nearly any of the heritage, assets, or frankly money-making nameplates (like Hemi) like chrysler has today.

(but yes, im sure the Nitro would disappear anyway)

The key words in the article above are “excess capacity.” It reflects pretty much what I posted on LLN the other day: GM isn’t so much interested in Chrysler nameplates and “franchises” as it is in getting Chrysler and its brands (except Jeep & caravan) off the market, where they divert buyers from GM products.

Maybe some of you follow the (also hurting) airline industry. About eight years ago TWA was a real sick pup, with a great brand and great employees but no particularly vaulable planes or routes or ideas. In other words TWA was the Chrysler of the airlines.

American Airlines acquired TWA in 2002 or so and paid good money for TWA assets. Not because AA wanted TWA’s airplanes, brand, route system, airport gates, or employees. What AA wanted was to put TWA out of business, because it represented “excess capacity.” When AA did the deal it gave lip service to the glory of the TWA brand, the wonderful TWA workers joining our team, etc. and then immediately tossed everything TWA into the garbage bin. That’s business.

And that’s what GM is thinking about Chrysler. Excess capacity. With the exception of a couple of Jeep nameplates representing solid equity (Wranger, Grand Cherokee), and the minivan dies (rename it the Chevy Caravan), there is no solid business argument for sustaining ChryCo products or brands, and a very strong case for killing them. And, yes, that includes the RAM — why split the Silverado market?

Welcome to depression-era realpolitik. It hurts, but it has to be said. Nobody can afford sentimentality anymore.

The only thing that would survive this is Jeep. You’re just lying to yourself if you believe Dodge or Chrysler would exist in any way shape or form. Charger? Why would GM hold on to the LX platform, a refurbished 10 year old hand-me-down from Mercedes, when they just spent so much time and development dollars on the Zeta architecture?

@TomF, Jeep is iconic; Hummer is not. This may be the very reason that Jim Taylor was moved to Hummer as he will be the one to consolidate and handle the brands.

Great!!! No chysler means less junk on the road. Now we just need to wait for ford to get absorbed.

These analysts are morons. This deal isn’t gonna happen. When you look at the scale of problems facing GM right now, Chrysler as a competitor isn’t even on the radar screen.

The only way I see Dodge surviving this is by GM deciding to can all Dodge cars, can the GMC name, and replace GMC with Dodge trucks…keeping the Ram to replace the Sierra (awaiting the Silverado’s next redesign to share a common platform…just like the Sierra does now), the Grand Caravan, and rebadging the remaining GMC models as Dodges. The Ram sells better than the Sierra and has a very loyal following.

Ending the brand completely would create much more of a backlash than AA buying TWA did. However, we all agree that Jeep is salvagible, while Chrysler is not…especially in light of a Buick division that is resurgent and selling more units per model than Chrysler is.

Either way, it’d be smart for GM to remove the excess capacity, though I’d hate to see Chrysler chewed up and spit out.

Why do we continue to call automakers the big 3? maybe the big US 3 or big US 2, they arent as big as other makers now.

@inline6, GM would keep all the value patents and integrate them into other vehicles. What this merger will allow GM to do is downsize even further; cut more employee benefits; pander further to Wall Street. I just want to know how much of GM I actually own with the American Taxpayer bailout money they are using for nefarious purposes? (We all know the answer…)

thank God some of you guys can cheer me up with your post ( lyrics: golden girls, differnt strokes LOL) but this is becoming more a reality and just keeps getting worse. whatever happened to ‘Get Ready For the Next 100 Years?” and i guess if Cerberus was planning this out a while ago it makes sense that this ‘Lifetime Warranty’ was just a marketing scheme. as a wise man once said, “whatchu talkin bout Willis?!”

“though I’d hate to see Chrysler chewed up and spit out.”

Sadly, I called this the moment Chrysler was bought by a Private Investors Group. I was expecting it to take awhile, though, and for it to be sold off piece by piece, with only Jeep staying a solid brand before the end. The signs have been showing up over the past number of months, with the prospect of the Viper ‘brand’ being sold the latest bit of writing on the wall. Unless Renault/Nissan steps up and makes the purchase, I don’t hold any hope of Chrysler surviving the next decade.

Yep Chrysler is history. I think GM execs are doing the expensive dirty work for Toyota and Honda as well as Nissan. The orphan Chrysler owners will not be switching to another weak player in the US automarket, like GM or Ford. Instead they’ll see GM as the villian for shelving their brand. These owners will switch to strong imports like Toyota.

Let’s face it. GM,Ford, and Chrysler are to the US auto industry what Curtis Mathes, RCA,and Emerson were to the TV market. They once owned the US TV market but we all know how that went. Toyota is Sony, and Honda is…Panasonic, I guess Hyundai is LG…

rerone i think youre wrong… i would actually want to buy a sony.

Panasonic is bigger than Sony. MUCH bigger. Panasonic should be likened to Toyota, and Honda to Sony. I also think their products are similar in nature, too. Panasonic seems like appliances, while Sony has a bit more attractive design (my opinion).

Chrysler has some good products (Jeep, Viper, 300C, Challenger/Charger, the Ram Truck and their Minivans. II could see some of these surviving under GM (or being sold to other interested parties – VW might want the Truck/Minivans stuff, as they are trying to get into that market).

But in the bigger scheme of things GM would prolly shut most of Chrysler down. They should get Ford to pay for part of the deal, as both companies would benefit from less competition in the market.

i really doubt VW would want the chrysler truck arm… the robust is one thing but they just wouldnt have a place for all the trim levels and model lines… its pretty outrageous how many combinations of vehicles you can get with things like a caravan or a ram. Look at the option list on a GTI… 4 colors, 2 main wheel styles, and a couple minor options. I guarantee that helps keep costs down.

at least isn’t stupid enough to get into this ****

sorry at least ford isn’t stupid enough to get into this ****

Don’t forget that Chrysler is supplying vehicles to Mitsubishi (though I think the Raider is gone for ‘09), VW (Routan) and Nissan (2010 Titan).. wonder how GM would handle those partnerships if they inherit Chrysler?

There appears to be a black cloud over my home today. I am a 3rd generation Dodge owner and all I can say is F***, F***,F***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I wanted to drive that GM crap I would go to my local GM dealer and buy the crap.

Call me crazy but wouldn’t GM be better served keeping Jeep AND Chrysler and junking Dodge AND BUICK?

There is no place for Dodge left in a merger here. That much is certain. But I think they’d be better served with Chrysler as the gap filler between Chevy and Cadillac.

Plus, I think Chrysler appeals to a lot more people than Buick ever will.

THawkoo, you’re crazy.

Had to.

The more I think about it, the more I think they’d be making a big mistake by getting rid of Chrysler.

Keep Chrysler and keep Jeep and toss Dodge and Buick.

Switch their cars to GM platforms. Can you imagine Chevy Camaro, Malibu, Corvette, Chrysler 300, Chrysler Pacifica (actually the Enclave in Chrysler dress), Chrysler(or Chevy) Caravan, Jeep Cherokee, Saturn Vue, Aura, Sky, Pontiac G8/6/Solstice all coming from the same company?

That Dodge Hornet was gathering some buzz, too. Wow, what a line-up GM would have then. How can they just junk the Chrysler 300? Its much more popular than Buick…anything.

The Chrysler name has sway than Buick. Stupid to keep Buick and not Chrysler if this goes through.

More sway.

Oh and I forgot to list Cadillac and its ever growing quality line-up. Come on GM, wake up and smell the coffee on Chrysler. Don’t let your pride get in the way of making the right decision to kill off Buick and replace it with Chrysler.

THawkoo wrote “… kill off Buick and replace it with Chrysler.”

Comparisons between Chrysler and Buick are flawed because Buick is part of the Buick-Pontiac-GMC Group whereas Chrysler is a standalone division of its parent. BPG over the last 12 months has sold 644,928 vehicles, 113,130 of which sported the Buick badge. Chrysler has sold much less 61% fewer vehicles at 252,389.

Buick has just three models in its catalog, the LaCrosse, the Lucerne, and the Enclave. The two passenger car models are struggling, but the Enclave CUV is a spectacular success–experiencing a 123.9% increase in Jan-Sep YTD sales for 2008 over 2007 and a 26.7% increase in sales for Sep. 2008 over Sep. 2007. The Chrysler Division has many more models, but none of them are can brag about increased sales year-over-year. Its best selling model, the Town & Country (86,058 CYTD), is struggling the least with a sales decline of only 5% YTD. For the month of August 2008, it actually saw a 15% year-over-year increase. Chrysler’s second best model, the Sebring, suffered twice as much as the Town & Country with a 10% sales decline CYTD. Fanboy favorite, Chrysler 300, is dropping like a stone with a 41% CYTD in sales.

As a brand, Buick is struggling with a 20.5% CYTD decline is sales volume. The Chrysler brand, however, is struggling more than twice as much with a 44% CYTD decline in sales volume. The bottomline is that the Chrysler Division is the solution to none of GM’s problems.

THawkoo…

Buick *will not die* because of Buick’s strong presence in China, it’s the #1 selling brand in China. Now granted, GM could reconsider ditching the Buick brand in the U.S. and work towards keeping Chrysler here and Buick in China, similar to how GM is handling Vauxhall, Opel, Saturn, and Holden… but in the end, the Buick brand has tremendous equity. They sell more Buick’s in China than many of GM’s divisions sell over here.

Personally though, I really hope Ghosn steps up, or perhaps even Fiat. With Fiat’s interests in bringing Alfa Romeo to the U.S. market, having a dealer network and parts supplier (Mopar) to distribute parts through and U.S. manufacturing capacity could be huge for them. Fiat has tons of compact platforms that could pave the way for a # of small compact cars to help in fuel costs. It’d also give Fiat engineering in the states and brands with existing U.S. equity, something it completely lacks and will have an uphill climb to establish if it ever does. Personally, while financially Fiat might be the hardest fit… strategically, they’re the one to benefit most. It’d also give them engineering, manufacturing, parts distribution, and product/part sourcing that could be grafted into their European platforms long-term, and help pave the way for bringing more Fiat marques to the U.S. over time. Not just Alfa Romeo, but Fiat itself, Lancia, et al. They also have some executives (Jim Press esp.) within the Cerberus-owned Chrysler with some knowledge on how to get it done over here, something that would be beneficial to Fiat ownership.

GM… to me would be spending $ hand over fist to kill off a brand only to see the other brands around them get stronger. Sure… they gain Jeep, but rather than buy the whole kit and kaboodle from Cerberus, they’d be better suited to bid solely on Jeep and/or work out deals with Fiat or Renault/Nissan to buy the other brands and manufacturing. In fact, outside of $… Cerberus could gain significantly more from a Nissan/Renault merger longterm than they’d gain from selling it to a cannibalistic GM. GM could maybe even ink a deal to spin Hummer back into what they buy (after all, they clearly want to rid themselves of it from past commentaries) and sell it to Renault/Nissan or Fiat to recuperate some of the investment.

Nissan/Renault on the other hand… really only wants U.S. manufacturing for it’s brands IMHO. It could perhaps gain from purchasing Jeep (the one brand with tremendous equity that everyone would buy Chrysler for solely), and maybe even obtaining the Dodge and Chrysler brands for U.S. sales… but the thing about that level of merger is that Renault/Nissan would seriously need to assess the brands and/or reposition them so that their products and sales don’t impede on Nissan’s and Infiniti’s success in the U.S. After all, while there is a certain semblance of “Buy American” loyalty and equity in that principle, the real problem is that in the end… a buyout by Fiat or Nissan/Renault effectively makes them “not American” neither in executive status nor engineering/sourcing. Not that, that wasn’t already the case when Daimler previously owned them.

Having an American nameplate like Dodge (value and still has a sporty image, plus the whole NASCAR connection does have it’s place) is likely more beneficial to Nissan than Chrysler (sort of the Buick of the Chrysler lineup stateside, with exception to the 300 but it’s getting a bit old and ready for a redo), which would impede on Infiniti, and Chrysler’s equity isn’t really there as a luxury make so it’s sort of a haphazard brand that would take tremendous effort to reposture into something usable (i.e. a Lincoln or Cadillac like marque, which once again would cannibalize Infiniti sales). That said, using Nissan’s RWD platform for future replacements to the 300/Charger/Magnum/Challenger sounds divine, but I don’t think it’d come to pass personally. It’d be nice to see though as after losing Plymouth… and prior to that AMC, the American brand market is looking like a very shallow pool. Sad to see that no one has learned to swim yet either…

Anyone that is a Pro Wrestling fan knows what GM is up to. It’s WCW all over again. Just like Vince McMahon bought WCW just to shut it down and eliminate competition that is what GM will do if this happens.

The other question here is will the Gov let a deal like this happen?

Just desserts.

Richard wrote “Comparisons between Chrysler and Buick are flawed because Buick is part of the Buick-Pontiac-GMC Group whereas Chrysler is a standalone division of its parent. BPG over the last 12 months has sold 644,928 vehicles, 113,130 of which sported the Buick badge. Chrysler has sold much less 61% fewer vehicles at 252,389.”

Oh come on now. Chrysler has sold much less…? LOL You even say that Buick only sold 113,000 of which Chrysler sold twice as much. Its stupid to compare Chrysler to all 3 brands combined when we are only discussing dropping one brand and switching it for the other.

Come on, its GM — they are the king of badge conversion. Aura -> Malibu, Enclave -> Traverse, Solstice -Sky…ect….

So…

Convert CTS into the new 300. Convert the Enclave into the new Pacifica. Convert the new Malibu into the new Sebring.

Quick, dirty, efficient and improve sales. Seems like a no brainer but apparently that’s not the case.

And yes, they can keep Buick in China.

Pontiac Challenger. Chevy Caravan. Saturn Ram? lol

THawkoo, I have clearly stated my position and given you the links to my references. You can make of them what you will. Most certainly, the Chrysler brand outsells the Buick brand. This is partially due to the Chrysler LLC puts the Chrysler brand on a broader array of vehicles. With Plymouth now history, the GM equivalent of the Chrysler Division product line has cars from Chevrolet, Buick, Cadillac, and possibly others. The Division’s biggest seller, the Town & Country, has no GM equivalent.

Absolute numbers are important. There is no doubt about that. However, investment decisions are based on the direction of those numbers. The fact is that every single Chrysler Division product is on the decline. If GM were to takeover Chrysler LLC, it would have to decide the future of each Division. GM has done a fairly good job of defining Buick. Just as an aside the notion that you can make Buick a Chinese-only brand ignores the reason that Buick is popular in China. It is popular there because it is American. Take away the caché of its American origins, it becomes just another player in a fast-growing market.

I digress. Many people think they know what Chrysler is, but it has many vehicles that do not fit the image. To save the Division, GM would have a lot of rehabilitation to do. How much will the rehabilitation cost? Would the effort be worth it? My guess is that it is not. Given a choice between Buick and Chrysler, Buick wins hands down.

I’m with Richard.

Buick sells more units per model than Chrysler does. Buick’s market position is much better-established than Chrysler’s is. Most of the Chrysler brand’s sales are in vehicles that cost less than Buick’s entry-level models…the PT Cruiser and Sebring cost well below the LaCrosse’s base price.

Chrysler’s model average starting price is $25,300. Saturn’s is $24,467. Buick’s is $29,000. It would appear that Chrysler is closer to Saturn.

However, I’m not a fan of GM taking on Chrysler anyway. If Chrysler does get broken up, I can see an advantage to GM taking the minivans, and badging one as a Chevy and the other a Saturn and/or Pontiac. Move the tooling to that Moraine, Ohio SUV plant, and everyone would be happy. And drop the Hummer marque and the H2, merge the H3 into the newly-acquired Jeep line, and add it to the BPG dealer network, and you’d have something. The 300/Charger are getting old, and since GM already has a great new platform called Zeta, they could drop the old Benz tech LX platform.

Nissan-Renault can take the Ram to replace the Titan with.

The idled Chrysler plants could be sold to Nissan-Renault, VW, Fiat AG, PSA, etc. so they can start building cars here, too. That way, no company would experience the backlash of all those Chrysler employees getting sacked…they just be building a different company’s vehicles.

If Chrysler were to survive, they’d do best paired with Fiat. Chrysler needs really good B and C cars, and Fiat’s got just the platforms and technology Chrysler needs to do it right.

They should shock the market and pull something like mentioned here read the whole string. It may be what this market/country needs

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