Does the title of this article match what the article describes? I didn’t see anything in the article where GM syas plug in hybrids shouldn’t be part of CAFE standards.

I thought it was the EPA who set CAFE standards. What does the NHTSA have to do with it? I don’t see a correlation between fuel economy and “highway safety”.

More stupid excuses from GM and the other Detroit auto companies. Losing $17 billion dollars because of new efficiency standards? The reason they’re losing $billions now is their lack of fuel efficient cars. Detroit has no sense.

I’ll translate: GM says it will not sale enough electric Volts and Vues to offset overall mileage of its sold fleet. Since the rest of their cars and trucks are fuel hogs, GM is requesting government for either extension or permission of non-compliance with regulations. What’s so difficult?

Hey smart@$$, I thought the CAFE standard was for FLEET AVERAGE, not dependate on how many they sold for each car in the fleet. In other words, if car A,B,C is the fleet and A gets 20 mpg, B gets 40 mpg, and C gets 60 mpg, the average would be 40mpg. If you start taking into account car A had 20,000 sales, B had 5,000 sales and C 1000 sales that varies “fleet average” a hell of alot more.

Pauly and xyunya, you are mistaken in your assumption that GM makes fuel hogs, or at least the implication that their vehicles are any less efficient than any other manufacturer. I know xyunya especially likes to bash GM, but apples for apples their vehicles are right up there in efficiency.
As for the article itself, it’s title does not match the content and is misleading. And what’s wrong with not rushing a product through delevopment before its ready? Would you rather this technology gets a good rep right out of the box, or do you want 1,000,000 on the road by the Fall of 2010? Because it does not look like you can have both. If it was easy, someone would have it now…

Actually Hemi, I believe that is exactly how you calculate fleet average…

HomoRetard, you do have reading comprehension issues, how long it took you to complete HS? I repeat using smaller words (and I will type SLOWER for you): few electric Volts and Vues that GM will sell can NOT affect fleet mileage. GM is asking for government help.

If you’re calculating fleet average by how many cars they’re selling, versus the ACTUAL AVERAGE of the line-up, your fleet average will never be accurate. Why would they calculate fleet average by the amount of car sales in each catagory, that’s retarded. What if nobody even buys the volt.

injunraiv wrote – “you are mistaken in your assumption that GM makes fuel hogs”

isn’t this guy a salesman for some gm division dealership? in any case, aren’t some of gm’s most fuel efficient vehicles not even made by gm? like the korean aveo?

I didn’t think the Aveo was that fuel efficient for what it is. Last time I checked I think I saw 32mpg HWY on the window sticker.

injunraiv, you are not being objective. I crap on Ford much more then on GM. And when I “crap” on them I never implied engineers or line workers and not so much middle management. Those 2 companies are “evil empires” based on their upper management and boards of directors. You are correct that I don’t have a lot of respect for Lutz and perhaps Wagoner, but I have even less respect for Bill Ford.
Unlike most of the guys on this site, I am willing to give credit to Chrysler and especially Cerberus, for trying to save Chrysler. So called “public” companies just a collection of cronies and scions who inherited their space in life and sucking the life out of everything around it.
HHR, your last sentence is the essence of what the article says and I said: chances are there are not many Volts will be sold to affect anything, and GM requesting disposition from regulation.

Speaking of Aveo, when I drove it on biz trip it got me 20 mpg on highway in CA and I wasn’t aggressive (how could you in Aveo?).

Look dude, I don’t know what part of what I’m saying you don’t understand. GM has a fleet. They are made up of SEVERAL different cars, all ranging in different MPG ratings. You don’t take the FLEET AVERAGE from 25 sales of one car, 50 sales of another, and 2 sales of another car. You take what each car is rated at, add them in your little calculator, then divide by the number of cars in your LINE-UP, NOT BY THE NUMBER OF CAR SALES FOR EACH INDIVIDUAL MODEL! For example, AGAIN, if the Volt gets 120 mpg, and a Suburban gets 20 mpg, and those are the ONLY cars GM OFFERS, the FLEET AVERAGE is (120+20)/2 = 70mpg FLEET AVERAGE. What you’re saying is, if GM sells 1 Volt but 10 Suburbans, the fleet average would be ((10*20)+120)/11 = 29.09 mpg. <<<<<<< That is NOT the way you calculate fleet average, individual sales do NOT imply fleet fuel economy!

HHR, most ad campaigns from car manufacturers target the ‘30mpg or greater’ hwy mark nowadays when touting fuel efficiency of their fleet compared to other companies’. And the aveo automatic is supposed to get 23/32 city/hwy while the manual gets 24/34. That makes it one of their higher fuel efficiency vehicles. 20mpg on hwy in an aveo is surprising xyunya. you weren’t towing another aveo with it were you? lol

The title of the article is completely misleading. To me that says plug-in hybrids should not be included AT ALL in a manufacturers CAFE, which is nonsense. All GM is saying is there will not be enough Volts produced early on to significantly affect their average. A lot of debate because LLN has trouble with the semantics of the English language.

Actually, HHR, you DO calculate Fleet Average MPG on the INDIVIDUAL sale level. It’s the average of the entire FLEET of cars that you sold, not your Model Average.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page to see how the government calculates the average: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/CARS/rules/CAFE/overview.htm

That’s the entire point of the article, which isn’t misleading, it’s just not clear. NHTSA wants to change the current CAFE requirements by 25% to reflect a mix of plug-ins and other hybrids that will be entering the market. GM’s contention is that, sure, there will be plug-ins and other hybrids but there just won’t be enough to affect their overall fleet averages.

Now perhaps you understand why certain people harp on about the government mandating CAFE requirements. The requirements don’t say that GM has to MAKE so many fuel-efficient cars available. It says it has to SELL so many cars. If no one actually buys said cars, GMs fleet MPG doesn’t improve and it doesn’t meet the CAFE requirements. The government can’t make anyone buy a car that they may not want.

johnnycanuck, can you explain why nobody argues with you? I said the same f*ing thing.

AmericanIdiot, I was surprised myself at 20 mpg and it was one time affair, so cant say it was scientific. I weight less then 150 lbs (sober) and did not carry much crap on 3 day trip.

I am not sure whether is simply more free press for GM or not as there is nothing exciting about this article, and by the time GM does get around to releasing the Volt it may not may not be the first in plug-in production hybrids. The bigger question is who will care (and this is not a slam against GM)? People are looking for something to reduce their fuel expenses now—not in 2010.

Also, the most fuel-efficient car in GM’s American line is the Chevrolet Cobalt XFE, at 36mpg highway. Built in Lordstown, OH.

Xyunya, I have the answer as to why people don’t argue with Johnny as much. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but Johnny has a very advanced sense of humor, far beyond most others here. He skillfully uses his humor and the English language to get his point across in a very tactful way that is funny and yet not provocative to anyone in particular. Even if he makes fun of people here, they just laugh it off because he’s just so funny. Not that you aren’t funny, Xyunya, but Johnny is probably beyond all of us. Also, his English is very well written. I notice he has fewer grammatical and spelling errors than almost anyone else here, and he’s a Canadian for crying out loud!

There is a simple conclusion in this whole article and that is that GM is screwing up as a company just like they have been. Only now that some big rules are coming into play, they think they should be given some sort of leeway on the VOLT and who knows what else. GM is just crying like little babies because they cannot meet the required emissions unless their precious VOLT is in full production swing and selling like wildfire (like that will ever happen at 50k). “The NHTSA is considering a 25 percent bump in the 31.6 mpg 2011-2015 requirements, a move that would cost GM an estimated $17.3 billion, according to the Detroit Free Press.” That is it right there; GM is in the hole for 40 billion and now another 17.3 is about to get stacked on top; is it any mystery why they would want the government to bend the rules for them lol. If every other company has to abide by the CAFE then GM needs to as well otherwise the entire concept of equality disappears and we no longer live in a free America. As much as it might sound like it in my post here I do NOT hate GM but I am all for fair play and they got themselves in this pit. It is their responsibility as a company to pull themselves out just like every other business they should get no special treatment.

======>>xyunya less than 150lbs(sober)? nice figure…lol

beatusmongous, it’s just f*king discrimination!

Johnnycanuck, I am invading your province! and refuse to drink Molson!

MugenSentraKen, looking for a date? HemoRetard is lonely and available

Bob, the salesman at a GM dealer, talking to his client, Joe: “Sorry, I can’t sell you that truck. You have to buy this Aveo.”

Joe: “Why the hell not?”

Bob: “Because you need to buy a more fuel efficient car. We just cannot sell you that truck.”

Joe: “But I NEED a truck for my home business, which is hauling wood. I can’t do that in an Aveo.”

Bob: “Sorry, but the trucks just aren’t available right now.”

Joe: “It’s sitting right there! Why can’t I buy it? I have enough money!”

Bob: “If you buy that truck, it will throw off GM’s CAFE numbers and they will have to pay $2,000,000 in fines this year.”

Joe: “ƒµ©k GM. ƒµ©k CAFE. I care about ME. I’m buying that truck, even if it isn’t from you!”

So what you’re telling me is that GM’s “Fleet Average” fuel economy changes daily depending on what consumers buy more of? That’s BS. The line-up that GM OFFERS is what is calculated as the mpg average, NOT HOW MANY THEY SELL! FOR THE LAST TIME, If GM offers car A that gets 50 mpg and car B that gets 10 mpg, the FLEET AVERAGE is the average mpg between cars A and B combined, NOT TOTAL SALES FROM EACH CAR. It would be car A @50mpg + car B @ 10 mpg divided by 2 (there’s 2 cars that make GM’s fleet) This would equal (50+10)/2 => 30 MPG! What is sooo hard for you retards to understand? The average fuel economy is NOT the average of what consumers are buying. It’s the average of the vehicles GM OFFERS! I can’t believe you people manage your own money.

Sigma: How can the government, as non-communists (yeah right) tell GM WHAT to sell? I as the consumer make that decision, GM has no countrol over my final decision to buy a car. If I don’t like it, I’ll move on. This just adds more reason that CAFE is complete BS. If people don’t decide on their own to buy more fuel efficient cars, if they’re available, that just tells me gas prices aren’t high enough, And right now they’re pretty damn high.

Hemi, I posted a link to the NHTSA’s website that explains exactly how they calculate it. They’re the ones in charge of calculating it and levying the fines, I think they know alittle bit more about how it’s done than you do. They calculate it YEARLY based on TOTAL SALES of EACH model. It is a WEIGHTED AVERAGE.

While I certainly see your point and agree with the potential absurdity of the situation, the situation could be equally absurd if they simply looked at the MODELS sold rather than the individual sales. If it just looked at models, a manufacturer could come out with a compeltely impractical car that cost some absurd amount of money but technically got 100mpg (which is a very easy thing to do, it’s creating a PRACTICAL car that gets good mpg that’s hard), they could put it on the market and make their numbers look better even if only sold a couple to consumers. If it just came down to models, a manufacturer could come up with 10 different models of car that were little different than glorified go-karts that got great MPG but no one wanted, throw them in with the 3 models of gas-guzzling trucks (or whatever), and their average would look great.

Hemi — Note that I typed up that last comment before your last one was posted. I completely agree with your sentiment on the government getting involved in MPG requirements.

If what you’re saying is a fact, than it is absolute BS and nothing else. GM has no control over which of their cars recieves the most sales. All they can do is build a car the market wants, price it, advertise it and try to sell it. In the end, what you’re saying is the CONSUMER decides the overall fuel economy of GMN’s fleet? That is total BS!

And your comment on a car that’s way overpriced getting 100mpg is irrelevant. GM is not going to waste money they don’t have to buiuld this car just to keep it out of consumer’s hands. My point is the market (you and I) should dictate what manufacturer’s build, NOT the government because BS like this happens.

AmericanIdiot, please tell me where I was incorrect. What difference does it make to you what I do for a living? I do happen to be more educated on the car biz than most of the posters here, but I was addressing a singular common misconception. You can do some research and decide for yourself if I am incorrect: http://www.fueleconomy.gov Compare a Chavy Malibu 4 cyl to a Honda Accord 4 Cyl to a Toyota Camry 4 cyl, for instance. Come on back and tell us what you found…

I registered on the site just to call out HemiRoadRunner. I have read your comments for quite a while and i must say that you are the most thick headed individual i have ever met…(or read i suppose).

TAKE A MINUTE AND RESEARCH SOMETHING BEFORE YOU RUN YOUR MOUTH

Last time I checked Chevy had the most vehicles 30 MPG and over. Nobody is putting more weight into E85 and alternative fuels than GM. Even though their resources are depleting. GM is working on alternative fuel stations while nobody else is even trying, though they are going broke. Shouldn’t other automakers or at least the gov give more assistance. They shouldn’t have to put this all on the shoulders of a collapsing empire. Give some credit where it’s due.

injunraiv,
I am well aware of the numbers you are trying to tout, which by the way differ by about 1 or 2 mpg among the three vehicles. I can go cherry picking too – wanna compare Prius mileage with anything in the GM fleet? I promise to humiliate you by more than 2mpg. But lets not get carried away. The point I made was that you apparently think that gm does not make gas guzzlers (you can explain that thats not exactly what you meant but those were your words). So unless you have been living in a cave, or are a gm salesman, those statements are not made by any intelligent, unbiased, or well informed individual. gm makes a lot of fuel efficient cars, but we were talking about whether or not they make gas guzzlers, and they do, and so does toyota. so try again one more time. denial is always the first reaction.

No, I said “apples for apples their vehicles are right up there in efficiency”. You can cherry pick my words to make your point as well, but my point is valid.

You want to compare the prius to exactly what from GM? How about this: compare the Yukon Hybrid to the Sequoia!

I never said that there weren’t “guzzlers” as you call them (that is an inflammatory and subjective term). I’m saying there isn’t anything that GM makes that is less efficient than any other manufacturer, apples for apples. Compare the Silverado to the Tundra if you want, or the Cobalt to the Civic.

You want to continue to argue this point, fine. Show me the numbers…