Even Toyota caved in. It’s time for Big 3 (or former Big 3) to get their **** together

I thought the import makers could do anything???

If we need a stupid CAFE regulation, I’d rather it be somewhat lower to avoid filling the roads with fuel-efficient but woefully slow deathtraps that can’t get out of the way of a potential accident.

Pressure is on now. Buy your super duties why you can, necks.

If the Imperial Federal Government wants more economical cars, maybe they should lighten up on the pages and pages of safety regulations that tack 500lbs on to every vehicle.

Let people take responsibility for their own safety, for cryin’ out loud.

Hmmm… well I think it’s great.

It is possible for a car to be efficient, safe, and sporty… the technology just isn’t there yet.

The Big 3 agree to 32MPG for trucks and 35MPG for cars by 2022. The imports agree to 35MPG by ????. Maybe the imports need to get their **** together.

The imports need to get their **** together. It wouldn’t be so hard for Honda, who doesn’t make that many large vehicles, but I’m specifically talking about Toyota and Nissan.

Atourya- The technology is there, and I’m not talking about expensive technology either. Many of these designers though are too arrogant to explore them.

CA36GTP, the people trying to enforce this legislation believe that responsibility lies on part of the manufacturer, not the consumer. The consumer is a victim of Big Corporate Whatever.

see: http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56858

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, 35 mpg by 2020 is simply not possible.

Sounds to me like the imports and domestics are the same.

Imports say “we can do it but we need more time.”
Domestics say “we can’t do it in the time you want us to.”

Absolutely no diff, but still the first poster says the domestics are stupid. What a moron.

CA36GTP –as of right now, there isn’t all that much required. Companies like Hyundai and others love making everything standard so that they can claim they care more about your life than other companies, but things like side airbags aren’t legally required (yet).

Captain Spadaro –I think it’s totally possible. I drive a 2002 car that gets 36mpg highway (if the tank is.. fully highway, and I have the cruise set at 112 km/h. A 2002 car with turbo 4, with an engine that was first used in around 1993 in the Mazda MX-6, 626, and Ford Probe (non-GT).

2020 is so far out, I don’t see what the problem is. People just need to change their way of thinking. Do you really need that Mercedes S-class to putter around town running to the post office and the bank? Of course not. Does your pickup truck need to be faster in the quarter mile than some ’sports sedans’? Of course not. If you think you do need these things, is the environmental impact really worth it?

You can get a lot of power out of a 4-cylinder engine even without forced induction — just look at the Honda Civic Si, and for an engine that actually has some torque the 07 Sentra SE-R, the 2.0 in the Mazda MX-5, etc. A large midsize with a 4-cyl (i.e. new Camry) is slow by today’s standards, but why do the standards matter? Are you taking your V6 Camry to track days? Hardly. Hell, the midsize sedans professionally races are mostly with 4-cylinders.. the Mazda6, Audi A4, Acura TSX, and others come to mind.

My vision of the future is a ‘midsize’ the size of like a third gen Mazda Protege (shockingly roomy for being considered a compact), a compact more like the Mazda2, Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris liftback, etc. Something like the current Mazda6, which is way on the small side for a midsize sedan today, would be considered a large car. –all of those cars can be downright peppy with just a 4-cylinder.

In this future vision, the average american household, instead of having a V6 Accord and a V8 hemi Durango, would have a 4-cyl the size of a Protege or 2001-era Civic, maybe something like a Mazda5 instead of the Durango, and if you really need a truck, a wimpy-engine 4-cyl 2wd non-quad cab old Tacoma. You’d save thousands every year on fuel, and what would you lose? Bragging rights? Go spend the thousands on something to give you that happiness back.

If this 35mpg number is highway instead of combined, slap a turbo on any of those cars, free up the exhaust and intake a little bit, and you’ll still post highway fuel mileage in that range. That’s not even getting into direct injection, electronic power steering and a/c, and all sorts of other fuel saving measures that are becoming more and more mainstream.

Hell there’s V6 cars out there today getting 35mpg highway, and they’re not small cars at all.

I think it’s crazy for the car manufacturers to keep racing to see who can slap the biggest, most powerful engine in a midsize sedan –2020 is a long ways away, there’s no excuse not to have at least that kind of fuel mileage by then.

clever move by the auto companies, by 2020, nobody is going to remember this!!

Kansei, thirteen years (soon to be twelve) is only the span of one and a half generations of trucks. And vehicles aren’t designed overnight. The current Silverado will probably run until 2015 or 2016. That means that the next generation truck MUST be designed to meet new CAFE standards, effecitvely upping the date by four to five years. Cars might be easier in that regard because they’re updated more frequently, but even then that’s the next two generations of cars.

Besides, you’re oversimplifying the problem. It’s not about what the automakers are capable of doing. You and these lawmakers are failing to understand that this is a market. Without socializing (legislating, excuse me) the market, there’s no way CAFE would be feasible. Hypothetically, we could all be driving glorified golf carts and scooters or be taking the bus. And if fuel efficiency is truly the end-all of environmental protection, lawmakers and CAFE supporters aren’t nearly the saviours you’re making yoruselves out to be. Instead, you should be pushing public transportation down our throats.

Used poor grammar in that post.

“Sounds to me like the imports and domestics are the same.
Imports say “we can do it but we need more time.”
Domestics say “we can’t do it in the time you want us to.”
Absolutely no diff, but still the first poster says the domestics are stupid. What a moron.”
Comment by RicardoHead, posted on November1 at 3:48 pm
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There is a difference. To hear the media report it, the imports sound more optomistic. Doesn’t matter what the domestics say anyway; they get kicked around all the time for what is not ever a good reason these days.
.
The arrogance on this issue is not coming from the auto industry – it’s coming from the United States Government. For congress to mandate gas mileage is not all that principally different than if these out-of-touch fart bags tried to legislate weight limits for people. Can you imagine the US government telling some fatty that he has to lose 50 pounds in 6 months or pay stiff fines? A couple of years ago I would have found that particular question funny.

I’m not laughing anymore.

Maybe now Detroit will be forced to offer some G-d damned Diesel options that I’ve always wanted. As long as the infrastructure and mass production facilities for Hydrogen aren’t in place, (bio)diesel will be one of the few alternative fuel options out there.

Does anyone know how they are coming up with the average? Is it an average across the board on all models, or is each model weighted for the volume of sales? (which is how it should be imo… that way low-volume sports cars won’t kill a companies average)

great post, kaptin

I’m not seeing where the problem is. If you work in America you know how demanding consumers and the government are. You can either sell the product under market demands or pack up and go home. No one is telling you to stay in the market. If the govt tells you that you can’t export to Cuba then you can’t export to Cuba. Get over it. The companies are saying that they can’t meet CAFE and keep or exceed their current profit margins. So? That’s your problem. The market is what it is. If the law gets passed and upheld how many think that all manufacturers will find a way to make it on time? My hand is raised. I can’t wait to tell the IRS that I can’t pay taxes because it will infringe on my vacation to the Bahamas

STINKIN POST DELETERS

IN AMERICA WE ARE FREE TO DRIVE WHAT THE GOVERNMENT TELLS US TO…….. HOW DOES THAT FRIGGIN WORK. IF I WANT 1MPG AND CAN AFFORD IT THEN WHY STOP ME.

The issue is weight, cars have gained huge #s over the last 20 years. Lower the weight by the average car by 800 #s and 90% of the battle to get to the CAFE std is done. And reducing weight is the only way to make a car more efficient and faster in both acceleration and cornering.
With trucks they should just require any over 4000 #s be diesel, better for hauling anyways.
And no Kansei a gas 4 or v-6 will never pull my trailer with a skip-loader on it, ever and if you make my truck smaller it wont be able to stop or steer the trailer safely.

If I want to dump hazardous waste into the environment and can afford to do it, then why stop me.
By the way CTS thats what the gas guzzler tax is for you new money bitch. So rich guys can do what ever they can afford to do (didnt you notice the luxury tax when you bought your last yacht).
Personally I am buying every 2-stroke anything I can find and mixing them rich.
Viva La rich guy with no concern for anything out side his personal desires.

This reminds me of the emission-control battles of the 1970s. Manufacturers swore up one side and down the other that there was no way to make drivable cars that would meet legislated emissions standards. There were some pretty pathetic power trains at the time (remember the ‘73 Vette with 190 horsepower?). Then Honda invented the stratified-charge CVCC engine: no stalling and stumbling problems, no catalytic converter, no add-on air injection systems…just decent power and great fuel economy. That woke up some engineers at other companies.

Now we have cars that are literally hundreds of times cleaner than those of the ’70s, with better fuel economy, unbelievably better safety, and far greater performance. So are manufacturers going to step up, challenge their engineers, and keep improving the breed, are or they going to dig in their heels and wait for innovative competitors to take their market share?

Springood Tanoya, emissions controls wouldn’t necessarily create better cars. Cars are capable because of market conditions. It’s when the government mandates things that the market is stifled. That’s precisely why, per your example, Corvettes and Camaros were pathetic. Fuel injection is more efficient, by the way. That was a technological hurdle, not a federal requirement. And thank you for proving my point: competitors will take the marketshare if domestic brands are not competitive. Imagine that! CAFE is about misguided attempt to save the world, not to challenge Big Three engineering skills.

The government is hemoraging with ideas – then laws to take our freedoms and the FREE MARKET away from us. I don’t know of ONE congressman or senator that has the real knowledge to know what the hell to do about any of this. Do some of you really assume any differently. Too many of us go merrily along with every creeping loss at the hands of OUR government. Run like hell when they show up at your door and say -”I’m from the government, and I’m here to help!”

Spingood Tanoya reminded (or educated young) about same bull**** problems in 70’s. It was pollution and mileage and everyone whined (except Honda ). We have history repeating itself: while former Big 3 + Toyota now whines and spend billions on slime called lobbyists Honda delivers a diesel that meets all 50 states environmental requirements. In addition, Honda already almost there with mileage: all of their cars are over 30 mpg and their tracks and van are the most fuel efficient in their class.
In Europe vehicle taxes are collected based on amount of pollution car produces. I believe this is the way CAFE is written new regulations, which are not really new since guzzler tax is already in existence.

Take an economics class. It’s called “public goods” and “public bads.” It’s what doesn’t get addressed by the free market. Why should I pay for schools and libraries? Let folks with kids pay. Why pay for highways I don’t use? Let truckers and road warriors pay. Why should I pay for police and fire services? I live in a new, safe neighborhood. Let paranoiacs and crime victims pay. Why should I be concerned about any issues that don’t affect me directly? Here’s why:

Los Angeles 1977: 121 Stage 1 smog alerts. Average of one every freaking three days for the entire year. That means the ozone level is so high that anyone with respiratory problems has to stay indoors. Outdoor sports in schools canceled because ozone eats away lungs. Los Angeles since 2003: ZERO Stage 1 smog alerts, in spite of the number of cars increasing by 63% since ‘77. The difference? CARB-mandated emission requirements on automobiles and industrial pollution sources. Where was the free market then?

Care to guess what the cost SAVINGS in reduced health care to the 18 MILLION residents of the area have been? Care to guess the incremental REVENUE from tourism and housing once people didn’t have to risk their health just to breathe? You can look it up. It’s a big number and the units are “billions”.

By the way, if you don’t want mandated mileage standards, let’s let the free market handle it: impose a $10/gallon “user fee” for roads and infrastructure maintenance. It’s the perfect free market solution: only people who drive or use vehicle services will pay for the roads they use and we’ll have the best roads on the planet. That’s totally fair. Let’s see: 1,000 miles/month at 12 miles/gallon…say $13/gallon for gas ($3 plus $10 use tax)…$1083/month for gas. $13K/year. Perfect…and perfectly fair.

Ah, yes, good ‘ol CAFE. The debate rages.

I think the consensus among enthusiasts such as the posters here is that CAFE doesn’t “work.” Work to do what, you might say? Save the environment? Well, that’s pretty clear because auto emissions are not the big contributor, but do they contribute? Of course they do. Would the environment be better with less pollution of any kind? Of course.

The problem from the enthusiast standpoint is that the issue is now political, and like so many, once it becomes political, politicians must keep it alive or face death at the poll. E85 anyone? E85 is sometimes more expensive than gas, it is across the board less efficient, implementing it is a logistical nightmare because it can’t be piped, and processing the starch to make E85 cuts into food stock and drives up ag market prices in general. If we all drove E85 vehicles, we would actually starve. Not that great of a solution.

I’m virtually positive that CAFE is a weighted average based on volume sold. With engine advances, maybe some weight savings, but more likely with the sale of microcars, subcompacts, diesels and hybrids, average mpg will rise. Large-volume companies will have lower volume performance cars, and we’ll have ultra-green efficient cars. Companies will get credits for alternative fuels and maybe the companies will actually hit their targets. And the world might not end for car companies even if they don’t. BMW, for example, doesn’t make the current CAFE. So, it just pays fines, it’s the cost of doing business. And these costs and the costs of engineering will likely be passed onto the consumers, well so what, ain’t capitalism grand. You pay an extra grand for your flatscreen so that Best Buy can run prints ads on the thing.

The difference between regulating the auto industry and Kaptain’s fatty is that obesity, in a much more direct sense, doesn’t harm anyone else. Just like the gov’t saying you have to get a 4-year college degree or pay fines, that would be a severe personal intrusion, whereas CAFE regs. are not. Emissions, dependence on overseas oil, and all that good stuff, even if you don’t swallow the rhetoric hook-line-and-sinker and even if you don’t think there’s a “crisis”, you still have to admit that environment deterioration (be it slow or fast) and geopolitical instability AFFECTS us all.

So the regs are here to stay, for the time being. As they say, everyone can be against something, so what are you guys for? We’re bitchin’ now because maybe we won’t be able to drive a 2010 Camaro convertible. Gas in Europe is taxed up the wazzoo—The equivalent of $5, $6 a gallon? Here’s a thought: the bitch-and-moaners are spending $3 a gallon for gas now—would you have spent that five years ago, so that a dollar of every gallon bought then could have been dumped into R&D for a solution now? Would you spend $4 a gallon for gas now to guarantee that Nissan GT-Rs are waiting for you when you move out of your mom’s sewing room and get a job?

I’ll pick up where Jazz left off. I believe in the market. Like I said a paragraph ago, the regs. are here to stay, for the time being. You can bet car companies will do their damndest to meet the regs to avoid the political ramifications if they don’t or to avoid the loss of sales to those companies that do. And if it can’t be done, the effects will trickle down so that even the politicians hear it: car companies will lose money, lay off people, close down plants, sell assets, and continue spiraling downward until the situation is unbearable and the law changes. That will be a political nightmare even today’s greenest lawmakers won’t ignore.

So it’s back to the Free Market.
Because – most vote with their pocket book.
But the elephant in the living room is the ARBITRARY Cafe number – nobody knows where it really came from – but, there it is in all it’s political glory.

great post spingood…couldnt agree more

Just to correct Autonut, the Honda Pilot gets 15/20 MPG which is worse than nearly all the trucks in its class. Also, Acura which is Honda does not have a single 2008 vehicle that get 30MPG on the highway.

Spingood is right once more. In reply to car enthusiasts: everyone on this board loves cars. In last 30 years quality and performance of cars leapfrogged, yet they pollute much less. Give in to the “Big 3″ and we would be driving 64 Falcons and Novas (quality & economy wise) and had all levels of protectionism laws preventing foreign competition and progress associated with free trade.

driver54, I checked numbers you quoted with Honda site and they are not as bad: 16/22/18. Once on the subject of Pilot it is Ultra-Low emission vehicle. At this moment to clean the air in San Diego you are better off with planting Pilot in your living room .
Acura is “luxury” brand in Honda parlance so the vehicles are heavier and engines are larger. However, CAFE is about fleet numbers: Honda is the lowest mileage and the “greenest” manufacturer selling in US (and perhaps world wide). I would love to see GM matching them, by that time the Ford will be gone and Chrysler will be Chinese owned.

“Can you imagine the US government telling some fatty that he has to lose 50 pounds in 6 months or pay stiff fines?” – Kaptain75329

“The difference between regulating the auto industry and Kaptain’s fatty is that obesity, in a much more direct sense, doesn’t harm anyone else. Just like the gov’t saying you have to get a 4-year college degree or pay fines, that would be a severe personal intrusion, whereas CAFE regs. are not. Emissions, dependence on overseas oil, and all that good stuff, even if you don’t swallow the rhetoric hook-line-and-sinker and even if you don’t think there’s a “crisis”, you still have to admit that environment deterioration (be it slow or fast) and geopolitical instability AFFECTS us all.” – Scarface03

Good answer, scarface, in response to some poor rediculus analogy. But it is much easier to look at CAFE as a regulation for manufactured goods, which obesity is not. If you want to sell anything in any country, you always have to meet the standard of some regulations (non-lead paint for toys anyone?) If I have to use Kaptain’s fatty analogy, CAFE is more in line with regulating trans fat and ingredients in Fast Food. To tell obese people that they must lose weight is more like telling driver they have to drive below 25 mph on highway because that will cut fuel consumption and emission.

Whether CAFE is a good regulation, or even a feasible one is a different issue that many others posted already.

The issue surely has been highly politicized. But I don’t think any carmaker should complain if they use mpg as a selling point in their advertisement. I know Toyota, Honda, GM, Hyundai and Ford all did it. Yeah the battle is in the truck department, but if the switching from truck / SUV to smaller cars aren’t market-driven enough that consumers do want more fuel-efficient vehicles and that is enough for them to ditch their SUV for a hatchback, for example, then the regulation may just be doing carmakers a favor by requiring them to get more fuel efficient even for trucks (and kill some of the SUV models). Average consumers (probably excluding many enthusiasts like us) are now more concerned about pocket book than SUV. So sure, go back to Free Market, and I suspect the result may still be the same, just that we don’t know how soon the market will finally compel automakers to do the same thing that is required by CAFE.

Gov’t doesn’t need to worry about CAFE. High oil prices will set the martket for fuel efficient vehicles.

Someone in these comments said the answer is that everyone needs to just change their way of thinking. Wow, problem solved! Why didn’t I think of that? I just changed my way of thinking again and I think world hunger was solved. This is way too easy!!!!! Now on to world peace.

2022 for 35MPG is way too long…lead, follow or get the f.ck out of the business!

Here’s an idea…

Design the car around a V8 (or whatever). Then build it with a crappy little i4 that’ll mate up. But specifically engineer it to be very easily swappable back to the V8. When the customer buys the car, they buy the crate motor at the same time. Then you just have the dealer install the motor after purchase. GM and Ford in particular excel at the production and distribution of crate motors at reasonable prices. They warranty them now anyhow, you’re simply giving the customer an engine option after delivery rather than before.

Sure, it’d probably cost a little more for the customer. But production costs would actually be lower because of the standardized motor, so you could pass on some of that savings. And if you did it right the motors could be swapped at the dealer in a matter of a couple hours.

Again, it’d cost the customer a little more but manufacturers would meet their CAFE requirements because everything they sold would be manufactured with the same little motor in it. CAFE requirements only take what is manufacturered into account, not what the customer chooses to modify after purchase.

And, yes, the above is said half-jokingly.

i will NOT drive a car that goes 0-60 in 12 seconds. EVER.

By the way CTS thats what the gas guzzler tax is for you new money bitch. So rich guys can do what ever they can afford to do (didnt you notice the luxury tax when you bought your last yacht).
Comment by SwerveEarly, posted on November1 at 6:22 pm
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HAHAHAHA IF I WAS RICH DO YOU THINK I WOULD BE DRIVING A CTS HAHAHAHA. i make 50 grand a year, that definately makes a single white male in this country almost poor after taxes.
bitch? **** you you turd burglar, go tune your moms meat whistle you punk ass little colon crammer.

SigmaHyperion, unfortunately without any jokes, every time I am being lazy and taking car to dealer to replace oil (usually when it’s cold and I don’t want to roll under the car on ice cold concrete in my garage) the car pisses oil all over the garage and I have to roll under it to “fix” what “professional” have done. Can you imagine replacing a motor? That actually will beat any CAFE: the car never will be driven

Spingood Tanoya, your best example is of a very heavily populated city in a region condusive to smog buildup. If you stuck your mouth over a tailpipe of a running car, you’d probably have health problems, too. Their emissions problems aren’t a reflection of the country. Neither are their politics or your need to feel self-righteous. What’s worse, you’re suggesting that a controlled market is still a free market! The free market isn’t handling anything with government imposition. And you want me to take an economics class! Finally, your $10/gallon use tax is ridiculous; not worth arguing over.

And – so what is the CAFE in Russia, China, Korea, Japan, Africa, Australia, Indonesia, India, South America, Central America, etc.? You tunnel vision sheep.

How is honda the greenest automaker when they make 2 stroke dirt bikes? Ever see the emissions those things put out? Not to mention their 4 stroke dirt bikes and 4 wheelers? Think there great for the enviroment? They put out more emissions then most cars on the road. Or all the lawnmower engines they make? You people got to be kidding yourself.

100 years from now people will laugh at our hysteria when the hot new topic of worry is the coming ice age (again).
Drive your damn cars and have some fun again.
Life is short.

67_l-88, or jet engines a bigger source of pollution. just remember theese people would believe a pickle was their mom if the japaneese companies told them it was true.

Autonut, your numbers on the Pilot are for 2WD and mine were for 4WD. I do agree with you that Honda is a leader in Fuel Economy and emissions.

‘Spingood’ and ‘Scarface’ … your common sense is refreshing after reading the trash that the ‘free’ market followers post. The market isn’t truly ‘free’.

‘CTS’, love the ‘Deanster’ style retort at 10:52 am.

thanks impulsive i have been a quiet student of deanster and yourself. lmao.;)

I just want one person to explain how to get a 35mpg fleet overnight with no impact on performance, price, safety or anything else. There is a reason why some of you are here posting instead of working as automotive engineers.

This is one of the stupidest things I have read on here: “22 for 35MPG is way too long…lead, follow or get the f.ck out of the business!”

Give me a break. Honda, Hyundai nor anyone else has a clear idea of how to get to this 35mpg AVERAGE. Any of you who are saying Honda is close need to look up “average” in the dictionary. Honda has about two vehicles that are close to this number. This is not merely a highway number, its an average mileage number. Even Honda doesnt know how to get 35mpg from an Odyssey or Pilot right now.

The point of this is supposed to be reducing fuel consumption. Keeping gas cheap and forcing automakers to increase fuel economy is a sure fire way to increase oil usage- period. You cannot use laws to force people to buy small cars but thats what they are trying to do in congress. The idea that we can maintain our choices and vehicle types and meet these requirements is laughable.

Emissions rules in the 70s has NOTHING to do with this. This is about physics and you cant change them. The ways to increase mileage (without making a vehicle small) are hybrid powertrains, diesels or use of materials that reduce weight dramatically. None are cheap. The same people who criticize GM’s mild hybrid system (which is affordable) for being a waste of time also say there is existing “cheap” technology that can magically increase fuel efficiency by a large margin.

sj79, thanks for the elaboration. But your argument is falling on blind readers.

Imports just said this to make them look good

Bryce – In my opinion, the education system is really what is at fault here in the US. If the school system and parents were to actually get back to teaching, this topic might not have so many Marxists jumping for joy that their cars will be more expensive. Making matters worse, if this country didn’t have so many self involved obliviots, there wouldn’t be any CAFE discussion period. There just might be a bit of intellectual honesty for once in the public media. Your argument about LA is a shining star amongst a black hole of ignorance.

Someone tell me again why we need CAFE? Because of Global Warming? Nooo, global warming is a hoax and purely agenda driven. Is it for carbon emissions?? Noooo, as stated earlier, that problem is really population density. Maybe it’s so we can use less foreign oil?? If that’s the case, we have plenty of oil here in the states. So why aren’t we drilling and creating our own power?? Ahhhh, there lies the answer. Because the same people promoting global warming, promoting CAFE, blocking new refineries, blocking new Nuclear plants, blocking drilling, who want to raise your taxes, who want to socialize your health care, ARE SOCIAL-ISTS!

A4: I agree with you on that, that’s for damn sure!

The rising price of oil will help to steer purchasers into smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles. That, besides CAFE, should help weed out those who unnecessarily buy overly large polluters that produce oxides of nitrogen that fill the skies, over the GTA of southern Ontario and other major cities, as smog. Unfortunately, the automakers argue they don’t make enough profit in the small car arena. That, indirectly, should spur R&D into finding other avenues to meet the 35 mpg average.

CAFE standards have not changed since 1990 for passenger vehicles and have not changed significantly for light trucks. Had regular incremental increases been mandatory, this may not have been so heated now.

Look, if I have to overpay for a vehicle because of a bunch of people making too much money building it on the line, I can pay a little more to have it meet CAFE regulations. That little extra can go towards paying the fine if the manufacturer can’t meet the target.

‘Bryce’, your ‘gminsidenews’ link leads with a rant by a nutjob … fortunately, many of those posting after him/her put things in perspective. I would assume (s)he’s also a smoker and wants to murder any and all who have now endorsed anti-smoking laws indoors. Oh, and ‘Spingood’’s reference to a gas tax to cover road maintenance is no different than arguing for car drivers to pay for health problems due to pollution, which is no less ridiculous than your link to that nutjob.

’sj79′, if peak oil is, for arguments sake, happening now, what will prompt progress by the manufacturers to stay profitable, or even survive, over the next decade or two when gas prices are MUCH higher? Clearly, if they can’t do it because they are lawfully required to do it, they can’t do it regardless of how high oil prices rise.

What’s funny is that your country can devalue its currency and essentially make everyone poorer vis-a-vis the rest of the world and nobody blinks an eye. Your country can fight a war under the false pretense that it was about WMDs and a threat to your freedom, and spend hundreds of billions in a losing battle, and you keep that monkey in power by voting him back in. Your country is teetering financially because of a derivatives mess that is only now starting to show how big it might be, and how it will affect everyone else in the world …. but instead, you’re all arguing about not wanting cleaner air and not lessening your reliance on foreign oil.

You’re right … screw CAFE … go back to driving the antiquated stuff from decades ago because you want to drive what you want to drive. We’ll discuss this again in a decade and see how good life is then.

Of course the Imports accept it, it will hurt the domestics much more because they sell hundreds of thousands of TRUCKS. There are people who need these trucks and its impossible to get great gas mileage with a hauling truck.
Nancy Pelosi and her Democrat cohorts are jerks who want to wipe out the last vestige of American manufacturing. They weren’t happy enough by wiping out almost everything else by giving China ‘free’ trade status.

Exactly right steve333,
It is simply amazing to watch union members march merrily along while their leaders sell them again down the river by supporting the very polititians that are slowly killing them through the back door. The very same leftists that prop up the unions also have a desire to see our country desolve to a lesser power – one that will be more equal to their brothers in other lesser countries. To anyone out there that does not understand the profound result of that – then I ask you – please, do not vote.

’steve’, China is one of the few in the world that has helped keep your inflation in check through cheap imports. And don’t forget who’s been buying your debt over the last number of years. That’s ending right about now … been watching the value of your dollar in the last year? Nobody wants to finance a failing economy. And it ain’t the Democrats fault. But don’t worry, as soon as the dollar breaks .6500 USDX, your country will look REAL good for foreigners to start building in America again.

‘lucklaster’, as one of the blind being led by the blind, it’s not the leftists who put you in the position in which you find yourselves. Progress means adapting. That means not depending on overpaid assembly jobs that should take place in countries that can provide cheap labour. Your country is dissolving because of triple deficits, not because of the ‘leftists’.

CTS: why is a white guy specifically “almost poor” at that salary?

Cafe should be scrapped. Fuel-economy is its own reward. if people wanted fuel economy, honda would be selling a 70 mpg civic.

“i will NOT drive a car that goes 0-60 in 12 seconds. EVER.” – A4

I am with you there. Driving such slow car on the highway or in and around Atlanta, NYC or L.A. is un-Smart! But the solution does not have to be so extreme when you look at a Mazda3i or even the Cam-cord. CAFE may just force carmakers to bring more diesel models to N.A. That I like!

‘jjt’, fuel economy will be NECESSARY when gas prices jump. And CAFE is NECESSARY to lower pollution that affects my enjoyment of life, or lack of, when I live in a smog-ridden city.

People would like to have sex everywhere without restriction but that’s not possible. People want to smoke beside me at work but that’s not possible. People want to drive 200kph but that’s not possible.

Don’t worry, people will want fuel economy soon enough … like i stated earlier … the market isn’t truly ‘free’.

Richness or poorness is pretty much subjective. I’d feel pretty well off if I made $50k a year, before or after taxes. As for CAFE.. hopefully the automakers can/will use the regulations to create something positive. I’m rather hoping for some simple technological advances; adding too many extra things in only creates more things that can go wrong in general.

Very true CTS driver. The same people who preach to me that my love of cars will destroy us all are often the same people who eat imported food, instead of locally grown goods. Or they go on big cruise ships every year.(Ever see the carbon numbers those ships put out?) But, they drive a toyota so their better then me and saving the world.

Impulsive-
Don’t preach to me about my country and the blind leading me and your interpretation that I said it’s the leftists who put me there or that my country is dissolving. All that’s only an insult to you.
And I believe the U.S. has done a pretty good job of progressing and adapting for over 200 years – hmm?
Your country may depend on others to provide for you – but in America we have preferred to do a lot of that ourselves – and very successfully I think.
By the way, the last I looked (today) the U.S. economy – for the most part – is hot as a pistol. How about yours?

I was kind of surprised at the imports asking for more time to develop their 35mpg “challenge.” You would figure they would be the ones to say bring it on. None the less, automobiles are going to be more and more interesting due to limitations. How much more do the cars have to change because of regulations set by the government? i.e. crash test ratings. Most Australian cars are not allowed to north america because they don’t meet the standards. What will we be left with when 2020 comes along? What standards are going to get tighter when 2020 comes along?

Impulsive: move to the countryside.
No, the market isn’t free, I think CTS best characterized it.

In cali, smoking isn’t allowed in bars. I don’t smoke, but I would only go to bars that didn’t allow smoking. No government interference necessary.

Spingood Tanoya: a lot of Muscle Cars from the old times don’t put out much power. Today’s V6s in many cases outperform old V8s

autonut: lobbyists should be banned from maryland, Va., D.C. Sacramento and Austin.

Piablo: good **** at 541p on the 2d.

‘lackluster’, you are blind being led by the blind. What I post is FACT. You, unfortunately, are lost. And the insult is on you and your blind brethren. If you think your country is ‘hot as a pistol’, idiot, all you see is the calm before the storm. Do you watch the news? Do you read the newspapers? Your dollar is plummeting in value. Your country is losing its freedom in the truest sense of the word by its own government. Your country is in debt so deep, there is no way you will ever pay it back. The only reason you’re where you are today is because your compatriots spend money like it grows as grass … mow every week and spend some more. When price inflation kicks in, technically it has … just that your government is lying to you, after this unprecedented monetary inflation is realized, you will come to understand that your country will, like England, become second best. Seen the derivatives mess sticking its foot in the door with the 8 BILLION dollar writedown by Merril Lynch? And the board decided to fire the CEO despite the problem having been in existence long beofre he had anything with it? Just a hint … this mess is far from over. And do some homework. Read up on your financial sector. Look at some charts of your biggest banks. Read up on your housing sector. Read up on how 1 in 196 homes is in foreclosure. Read up on the founding Merril’s cousin who believes there is going to be a major stock market crash. Your middle class is being sold to foreign countries. Your employment numbers are a lie.

But you’re right … I shouldn’t ‘preach’ to ignorant fools who have ZERO clue about REALITY. You are so lost, I might as well discuss with a frog. ****ing moron. Your handle here is more than appropriate.

‘jjt’, no, I want to live where I want to live and I don’t want anyone to interfere illegally with my enjoyment of life by polluting my skies. Just like I don’t want to inhale smoke from a jackass’s cigarette. What you don’t understand is that some people were forced to work in such an environment, be it bars, offices, warehouses, etc., until the government stepped in to stop it altogether … leaving it up to society to figure out would have resulted in countless people suffering because you want to have status quo. WRONG.

‘lackluster’, blind and dumb, I see. Helen Keller?

Are you really as dumb as you seem or is it the best acting job I’ve ever seen? Yesterday at 10:59 am you wrote ‘desolve’ which I have to call you on because there is no such word, ****ing moron. You stated the leftists are to blame for ‘desolving’ your country into a lesser power. My post at 11:57 am on Nov. 2 clearly stated I was forced to overpay for a vehicle because of the overpaid line workers … hmmmm, one could deduce I believe union monkeys are bad, as I’ve stated in other threads before and a child of five could then infer that I couldn’t really be a leftist, but that logic is out of your intellectual realm, isn’t it?

Who is selling your middle class ‘down the river’ and who is ‘killing them through the back door’, idiot? Is it the business leaders, the capitalists, who think they are are overpaid and want foreigners in India to supply cheap labour? I don’t see leftists in that equation. Who has been allowing illegal immigrants into your country to help enrich your businesses in making a bigger profit than might have occurred if these immigrants didn’t exist? I don’t see leftists in that equation. So who, exactly, are these leftists you refer to in that post?

In my post on November 3 at 12:47 pm I stated that progress means adapting and that assembly workers are overpaid and these jobs should be shipped overseas … hmmmmm, this again displays a non-leftist view, or you dumber than a flagpole, moron? Oh, and your entire post at 10:39 pm yesterday is the biggest joke in this thread. I have proven everything you stated WRONG and yet you still argue trying to twist the facts into some fairy tale that holds no water. You initially blamed leftists who prop up unions who want to see your country ‘desolve’ into a lesser power … then you later state I misinterpreted that and that I am a leftist … you should be insulted by your own stupidity. You are one of the most retarded people posting here. I’d love to see how you untangle this twisted mess of rope with which you’ve tied yourself, moron.

As for your country making me feel inferior …. riiiiight. Please go back and reread my last post and identify exactly one item that would make anyone feel inferior, dullard. I am ‘always off to the races’ because I am far more intelligent than you … everything seems to go by quickly to you when your brain works in slow motion. I know exactly what your handle is, jackass, and I can type whatever I think is appropriate for you here, as I did. The difference between me and you is that you hold far too much value in your identification where I really couldn’t care less what I am labelled. I let my quality posts, as exemplified in this and every thread, dictate my worth on this site … everyone can see how utterly worthless you are.

I will preach FACT to you and any other monkey as my heart pleases. You have a choice to learn and adapt or stagnate and suffer. It’s obvious your ignorance places you in the latter’s camp. Read the FACTS, loser … tell everyone again how great your country really is …. BWAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!!!

You’re a chump.

impulsive-
You and a few others give this site an immature, amateur feel.
You are petty, childish and apparently full of sick vitriol.
You scream like a little girl and obviously never heard of quality over quantity.
You take up space but give off no volume.
You, little one, are pathetic.

Retarded monkey …

EVERYTHING I posted above is FACT and worth its weight in gold. I have returned every feather-weight volley of yours with a resounding SMASH. I have shone light on your lies, twists and utter worthlessness for all to see.

EVEYTHING you posted, like many here, is garbage. And like ‘Lambo’, you are a schizo. Your arguments contradict your own initial statements.

You, like many here, are a moron who posts nonsense and you have ZERO merit in posting anything of value … much like a child calling an adult stupid.

You, like many here, are my toy. I have proven to you that I come loaded with guns ablazing … you are no match for me, monkey.

You are nothing here, chump. Move on.

Imp,
You just make my job too easy.
Fool.

Chump, you’re a loser … keep jumping in your cage, monkey.

Good show.

Imp,
I get to you every time.

Still around, chump?

Got any more good quality fecal matter that I can flush down the toilet for you?

I’ll give you some credit, you rank up near the top of monkeys in this zoo … good interaction … where some monkeys lie down and go to sleep, you seem to have a lot of energy screeching and jumping. Good show.

you are correct jack it is any single person in this country that gets robbed in taxes.

Imp,
You can’t look away.

Impulsive: no, I want people to make their own decisions, not have the government take that choice away. The nanny-state idea sucks.

People who don’t want to work in smoky bars always had a choice.

CTS: If I were in charge ….

I can’t look away from a train wreck, no. You are a write-off.

‘jjt’, the value of a society is derived by its lowest common denominator … you just happen to choose wanting to live with waste. Unfortunately, waste is toxic in many ways and the only way to deal with it is to treat it, not ignore it.

Your argument about choice, and only focusing on bars, ignores the problem which creates severe, diametrically opposed attitudes and results in longer term pain. But I understand how you see only three feet in front of you instead of looking down the road … your choice and your freedom is all that matters. You just don’t get it. Kind of like the idiots who built these derivatives models marked to model … REALITY comes back to bite those who use freedom and choice, and in this case, we will all pay for their stupidity.

Dang LLN is slow. That was in the news last week. And to be specific, that certain “alternative fuel” is E85! Now I know why GM invested heavily into E85 technology.

Changing the technology to raise the CAFE also feeds into the capitalist ways. Got to improve, need things to be better, faster, more efficient. This topic has so many things attached, it’s unreal. Are throwing batteries in cars a good solution? Aren’t those batteries pretty toxic? Is powering cars with this E85 such a good thing. All the corn that needs to be used for fuel as opposed to food, all the pesticides that goes into growing it? Then all the pollution that stems from the pesticides making their way into waterways. There’s 2 sides to everything. Hopefully they just come up with ways of making regular gas engines more efficient. They still seem like the best bet. ( I doubt it will happen though, seems unrealistic )

“no, I want people to make their own decisions, not have the government take that choice away. The nanny-state idea sucks.” – jjt

Wow, that gets the prize of the stupidest statement of the day. We don’t live in lawless land. I don’t like government intervention anymore than you do, but things need to be regulated. Not everybody is a “good” citizen like you who will voluntarily obey the law even if there is one. When was the last time you drive speed limit?

35MPG by 2022??? haha ok that was a really funny joke it made me laugh, now on a serious note when do you hope to acheive 35MPG??

’sharpie’, your handle and your post in this thread, at least, show that you see the light … too bad not enough others do.

Just think, we’d have been at 35 by now if progress was made since ‘90.

This is what happens when the government gets involved in the private sector. What does government know about building cars? Jack **** that’s what!

If the manufacturers could build cars that got awesome gas mileage and still appealed to consumers don’t you think they would do that and is their goal? MPGs and safety are probably the most important aspect of a vehicle to the average consumer.

To put a set standard on something that is already moving at it’s maximum pace is asinine. The vehicles out today are utilizing every technology today to increase MPGs that is still affordable to the average consumer. We can’t afford nor want hybrid vehicles. I’d bet money that the majority of people in the world would opt for style, safety, performance, and an average mpg rating than just whatever it takes to get good gas mileage. Vehicles are something people love just like we love a nice house so cutting corners on them is out of the question.

These damn liberals are making me insane!

Ummmm, maybe you should go back and read the 80 other posts before yours and get some perspective on the matter.

sharpie: I’m opposed to speed limits under many

terminator: “If the manufacturers could build cars that got awesome gas mileage and still appealed to consumers don’t you think they would do that and is their goal?”

To a certain extent, they can, but they’re not allowed to. but you’re right in that Government can’t force innovation.

Maybe I don’t care what other people have to say, I’m just stating my opinion. I’m doing a project on the CAFE rules and this is that is the conclusion I have pulled from it.

Since 1983 the CAFE fines collected from just European manufacturers (that’s excluding the Big 3 and any of the Japanese companies) was over 650 billion dollars. Sounds more like an income source to the gov rather than an environmental preserver.

Fortunately, I’m not grading your ‘project’.

Take some time and read what’s posted above … might help your ‘project’.

The automakers don’t have much choice in the matter. The Democrats have spoken. We won’t have a car industry left by 2025.

Impulsive, I did not read all the post but I read your first post and I must say I disagree with you also.

You clearly have bought into all the media hype around global warming and the political bull**** that gets spewed everyday on our national news networks.

terminator,
Your project sounds interesting. It begs me to ask questions I’ve been recently thinking about….
Did you collect any data for fines paid by american car companies? What are your primary sources? Porsche is basically saying that it will take over VW after the first of the year, and one of the cited reasons is for Porsche to avoid poor emissions fines brought on by its low-volume, sport-oriented cars. Has VW been able to meet CAFE regs and avoid fines in the past? If European marques don’t meet CO2 regs in Europe, do they pay fines, and how do they compare to CAFE fines?

That $650 billion went somewhere, how much to fueling (pardon the pun) research into engine efficiency or alternative fuels?

jayjc08: well f*cking said.

OK, so now that we’re all on the same page: perhaps now will be the time that steel will no longer comprise most of a vehicle’s body parts/chassis, and hopefully it’ll force auto manufacturers to use aluminum/carbon fiber or some other lightweight-yet-strong material. Governments around the world should put pressure on these manufacturing industries to make their materials more economically feasible for auto makers. IMO there’s no reason why an SUV should weigh 5,000+ lbs. That’s_just_frigging_ridiculous!

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: these proposed standards are simply not feasible.

‘terminator’, it’s clear your project will be a FAILURE if your last post is any indication of the research you do … where in ANY of my posts in this thread have I EVER mentioned ANYTHING about global warming?

With all due respect, you’re an idiot … take 20 minutes of your life and do some research into views that are more intelligent than the biased one you hold.