At least this one is blatant about its subjectivity.

“Porsche came out on top, with Jaguar, Cadillac, Audi and BMW not far behind …”

Duh. Those are for the most part driver’s brands. Porsche and Jaguar are pretty good examples of the car as art.

Buick. I know that from experience. Five years ago, I’d have never looked at a Buick. Now … there’s one in my driveway.

What color is that Challenger?”

Sub-compact car: Smart ForTwo, Scion xD, Honda Fit.

Smart is cute, but no way i’d drive one on the freeway.

Compact car: Mini Cooper, Volkswagen Jetta, Mitsubishi Lancer
Mini is much cooler

Compact sporty car: Volkswagen GTI. Yep.

Compact premium sporty car: Mercedes-Benz SLK, Nissan 370Z Z’s OK.

Entry premium vehicle: Volkswagen CC, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4/A5
All attractive.

Midsize sporty car: Dodge Challenger. Great looks!

Midsize premium car: Hyundai Genesis, Jaguar XF, BMW 5-Series
All attractive.

Large premium car: Mercedes-Benz S-Class, (Nuevo Celsior). S-Class is an acquired taste.

Midsize car: Volkswagen Passat, Mazda Mazda6, Honda Accord
All attractive.

Large car: Nissan Maxima, Pontiac G8, Toyota Avalon. Why is the avalon here?

Compact MAV/SUV: Volkswagen Tiguan, Saturn Vue, Mazda CX-7.

OK, LLN. JUST STOP! They’re all either SUVs or Station wagons. Kill the “MAV” crap!

Midsize MAV/SUV: Ford Flex, Buick Enclave. Venza’s Ugly, Flex is polarizing. Enclave is PAID OFF!

Large MAV/SUV: Nissan Armada, Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Yukon. Armada looks like an appliance.

Midsize premium MAV/SUV: Porsche Cayenne, BMW X5, Mercedes-Benz M-Class

Cayenne is attractive.

Large pickup: Chevrolet Avalanche/Ford F-150 (tie), Dodge Ram. they look like trucks!

Midsize pickup: Honda Ridgeline, Hummer H3T, Toyota Tacoma. All unattractive.

Minivan: Honda Odyssey, Volkswagen Routan, Toyota Sienna
They all look alike.

idrinorbarsaku: “anyone else notice how pretty much, vw’s entire lineup is on that list?”

Yeah. “I’m happy to see that the camry isn’t in the “Midsize car.” People don’t buy the Camry/ES for its looks. i’m not sure WHY they buy it.

The 5-series is also polarizing.

Borat: I think these classes should be further thought out. Mini is a subcompact. But I think Johd david took it out of that class because “subcompact” often means “cheap.”

howsmydriving: “The APEAL study is even more worthless than the JD Power quality surveys.” No, it’s not.

mugengsr: “who cares about these BS surveys???” JD Powers is the study for people whodon’t trust people who DRIVE cars. Ditto CR.

leftwingagenda: “it speaks to the fact hyundai can sell a premium car without having to create a separate (and fake) name brand to go with that more expensive line”

Good point.

tripleonefive: I like the Genesis for what it is, but Jags give you the im pression that they’re timeless.

idrinorbarsaku: Hyundai’s quality is better than you think.

tripleonefive: “Hyundai began as a budget brand but has since invested heavily in the quality, design of its cars so there is no basis for the low quality parts comment.”

You’re right.

“I will agree that they made a ****ty car in the Excel but was the Ford Escort, Chevy Cavalier or Chrysler K Cars any better ?” YES!

beatusmongous: “The Ford Escort was one of the most reliable cars ever made …”
here’s a guy who’s been paying attention! and so is Payton Byrd!

tripleonefive: “Honda Civic to figure out why Honda’s lasted so long.” i’m still trying to figure out why my Civic died at 91K

“What about the ones before the 90’s.” Cheap. No worse than a Sentra of the same vintage.

beatusmongous: ” I bought it (used) for $9,000 in 1992, and traded it in three years later for $8,000.” Does KBB know about this?

tripleonefive: A guy tried to sell me a taurus with either 258K or 358K. i don’t remember. I’ve NEVER seen a honda odometer past 100K, though a former co-worker drove one for 17 years.

beatusmongous: “Your personal experience has caused you to make certain choices in life. That’s how life is. My personal experience has caused me to make certain choices in life, as well.”

That sounds reasonable.

“My history with Ford has been good, and unfortunately, my history with Toyota, Honda … have been bad.”

Mine, too!
Everyone in my family who had a toyota now drives something else. Buick, mazda, Chevrolet, Caddy, VW, even Dodge.

“Rental cars don’t count as test drives, because rental cars are beat up by the renters, and they are usually the bottom of the barrel in amenities.”

That sounds reasonable, too. Maybe you don’t belong here.

tripleonefive: “What is the ranking of the (A and H-Civics) vs the Escort or any comparable car from Ford or GM ? Pretty poor, in my experience.

“J2 wins so its not just personal experience its fact based on actual numbers.” WHAT NUMBERS!?!?

“Your experience really doesnt matter.” You sure?

“The numbers show that Ford and GM are associated with unreliable cars.”

AGAIN, WHAT NUMBERS?!!?

“when someone tells a unreliable Honda or Toyota story its rare just like when someone has some story of a reliable Ford or GM that is rare.” You don’t live in Southern California. I spent years going to Junkyards in other people’s chevrolets to get parts for my Toyota.

“I would choose another manufacterur beside Toyota or Honda but the car will have to be just as or more reliable and be worth my while.” That’s reasonable.

“I was offered money from a certain D2 manufacterur to take a test drive of one of their vehicles which I did.” yeah, i get those things in the mail all the time. But I actually drive cars for a living, often for a week or more, without a dealer rep holding my hand.

The Malibu even is the best commuter coffin ever.

beatusmongous: “You may base your opinion on factual numbers, but it is still just an opinion. You like the make for the reasons you have chosen: reliability and resale. But, like I said before, ‘better’ is not quantified by those aspects. ‘Better’ is a personal opinion that is only quantified by your own personal interactions with something, i.e. your ‘experience.’ I like my mother-in-law’s tamales better than Doña Maria’s tamales, but does that make her tamales ‘better?’ To me, yes. To Joe down the street? Maybe not.”

You’re just beating this objectivity/reasonableness/well-thought-out arguments thing into the ground.

“My company will only allow our travelers to rent hybrids anymore, mostly the Prius, because the company wants to be ‘green.’

Diesel VW is greener.

That is something we can agree on.

Experience does matter. In life, this is a lesson that you will eventually learn. My experience may not matter to you, but it will matter to me, just like your experience matters to you.

You may base your opinion on factual numbers, but it is still just an opinion. You like the make for the reasons you have chosen: reliability and resale. But, like I said before, “better” is not quantified by those aspects. “Better” is a personal opinion that is only quantified by your own personal interactions with something, i.e. your “experience”. I like my mother-in-law’s tamales better than Doña Maria’s tamales, but does that make her tamales “better”? To me, yes. To Joe down the street? Maybe not. Your choice may sell more, or may stay out of the shops more, but that really doesn’t make it “better”, just more popular and more reliable. And we all know that “more popular” (Beta vs. VHS, CD vs. MiniDisc, etc.) doesn’t necessarily mean “better”. You can use that same argument for any of these cars on this JD Powers list, too.

Honestly, it’s quite strange that you haven’t seen Accords and Camrys in the rental places. I see them all the time with Economy, Alamo and Avis logos on them. And living in Las Vegas, I see a lot of rental cars. Try a different rental company or something. But I’m curious, why do you rent so many cars?

One more funny thing: My company will only allow our travelers to rent hybrids anymore, mostly the Prius, because the company wants to be “green”. Just adding that for humor’s sake.

I was offered money from a certain D2 manufacterur to take a test drive of one of their vehicles which I did.
It was nice..until I drove a J2 competitior. I will say that the D2 product had great rebates that took 6grand off the car which made it an attractive buy
All I am saying is that Ford and GM must prove with time that they have a reliable car just like Honda did with the Accord and Toyota has done with the Camry. A Fusion that has been out for less than 5 years doesnt impress me
The 2 G6′s Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu that I have rented in the last 2 years were not the bottom of the barrel and were loaded less a sunroof. The Malibu even had the leather (I think) with suede ( I think ) seats and XM radio. I drove them all and I wasnt impressed. The interior of the Malibu was the best of the three but its heavy in a bad way and the interior still reminded me of J2 car fromt he 90′s. My next rental will be Japanese or something other than a GM. Unfortunetely the rental car companies never have any Camry’s or Accords, I have seen Galants but I wouldnt drive that

That’s really quite funny, actually.

Here’s the thing: Your personal experience has caused you to make certain choices in life. That’s how life is. My personal experience has caused me to make certain choices in life, as well. You, for some reason, are extremely closed to any opinion other than your own, and yes, yours is only an opinion. I am much more open to the idea that there are good cars everywhere, regardless of brand. I’m also open to the idea that cars can have several reasons for being considered “good” besides speed, safety, reliability, character, etc. No one or two points makes a car (or brand) “better” than any other brand. It only makes that brand more desirable to you. That’s it. And quite honestly, there is absolutely no harm in that.

The harm comes when you start with the straw-man fallacies. A straw man is the attack on one’s character in order to try to diminish the validity of an argument. This is done through name calling and other insults, as well as trying to pass fact presentation as “unreliable sources”.

I believe you really like Toyota and Honda, and will probably not buy a car from any other brand. It also seems you value resale and reliability over any other attribute, including but not limited to power, handling, drivability, looks, cost, fuel mileage, etc. There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling that way. There is a problem, however, when people attack each other for differences of opinion.

I will clarify my earlier statement, the one which you attacked so forcefully:

“The Ford Escort OF THE 1990′S was one of the most reliable cars ever made until they went to the ZX2 model. And not just one of the most reliable Fords, but one of the most reliable cars, period.”

This is a true statement, and yes, my Escort still worked when it rained. My sister’s ’89 Honda Accord died for no reason while I was driving it down the street. It never ran again. She only had it for a year. My sister’s ’92 Acura Integra also overheated and died on her way to work. She only had that one for a year, too.

Of course, it didn’t help her to throw cold water on the engine, either…

But, like you said, we could swap individual stories all day, and get nowhere. The reason I mentioned it in the first place, though, is so that you understand that those individual stories can shape our perceptions quite strongly. My history with Ford has been good, and unfortunately, my history with Toyota, Honda and Acura have been bad. But, this is where true open-mindedness comes in: these happenings will not stop me from looking at a Toyota, Honda or Acura when I’m in the market for a vehicle. Why? Because I realize that no magazine, no blog, no article, no friend experience, no personal experience, no report and no survey can affect my experience with the car that suits my needs at that time. I really doubt you will allow yourself to test drive anything the D3 has to offer, which is unfortunate. Test drives are tons of fun.

Rental cars don’t count as test drives, because rental cars are beat up by the renters, and they are usually the bottom of the barrel in amenities.

Personally, I’m here to read about all kinds of cars, and because many of you guys are really funny. Hopefully, I add to the humor, too.

What about them?
-The Escort is an unreliable car from an unreliable company Im sure you had an Escort in high school that ran blah blah but I knew someone with an Escort that would not work if it was raining. Picture having a car like that and having watch a weather report before you take it out Individual stories are great and we can go all day but the bottom line is the resale value and the reliabilty of the car as a whole
Ford Motor Company as an unreliable brand
–Well then I cant help you. I’m glad that you could keep a Ford running for 3 years

What about them? That’s nearly 20 years ago, now. I had a 1991 Escort LX when I was in high school, and I drove that thing hard. But it never quit. I only ever did basic maintenance on it, and I never had it in the shop for any reason. I bought it (used) for $9,000 in 1992, and traded it in three years later for $8,000.

I’m hardly a Ford guy. I haven’t owned one since then, although my mom had a Mustang for a while and my company had an old, beat-up Aerostar (another vehicle that just wouldn’t quit). But I won’t look at Ford Motor Company as an unreliable brand, or any other brand for that matter. Instead, I look at the individual vehicle.

The Escort of the 1990’s
–What about the ones before the 90′s ????

Later Golf variations included the Golf GTI (introduced in June, 1976), Ill send a link if you want

Very good post though

The GTI was released in the 1980′s.

The Escort of the 1990′s was indeed one of the most reliable cars on the road, especially the last generation before the Focus which was designed by a team of engineers who disassembled a Honda Civic to figure out why Honda’s lasted so long. They learned a lot and practically every new Ford model introduced since then as had much higher quality. It’s funny, we taught the Japanese how to mass produce, they taught us how to do it well.

I will agree that they made a shitty car in the Excel but was the Ford Escort, Chevy Cavalier or Chrysler K Cars any better ? The former “Big 3 ” has the money to develop a great car but for “some” reason they didnt.

You can judge leather on seats all you want Ill get some seat covers if it ever became an issue

Actually, VW is neither reliable nor cheap.

On the other hand though, VW has manged to remain trendy and appealing over the last few years without seeming over the top and have a record of being well built for a reasonable price…what a novel concept!

These quick quantification surveys are for them, not really us. The fact that TOYOTA and HONDA are not at the very least alone at the top of the list does mean these surveys are having a positive effect on the manufacturers.

i am surprised the gti is all by itself…i’m looking forward to seeing how the new mazdaspeed 3 stacks up against the gti when those tests start coming out…of course, the ms3 loses out on appeal (and probably apeal) immediately due to the fugly snout, but who knows