Say it aint so!!

I guess once all the vegans buy a car that they perceive to be ‘green’ (and I emphasize the word “perceive”) that leaves everyone else to NOT waste their money on a stupid hybrid.

is this backlash, or has the market exhausted itself?
madcapp: been told that over a liftime, a hybrid has about the EI of a hummer. Interesting.

Diesels, that’s where the real “green” is

Sucks for Toyota! It will be interesting to see how they react after putting all their eggs in the hybrid basket, while crapping on diesel at the same time. I think they’ll be eating crow over the next 10 years with that move.

Of course hybrid diesels will come out sooner or later.

People are getting used to the current price of gas. There’s also a “denial factor”. But Hybrids are seen as no-thrills driving. Even if the New TOYOTA performance hybrids, also by way of LEXUS, who isn’t exactly the even the tenth name in performance, makes a mark, Hybrids need to become mainstream popular alternatives to tradition powertrains.

Hybrids that make no bones about being more than fuel efficient and reliable but also exciting (i.e. quick, fast, and agile) will be taken seriously as alternative to traditional powertrains. But just tacking on several hundred pounds of gear to operate one or two electric motors is a good way to turn most people off.

I keep singing about the CHEVY VOLT, whether it’ll happen or not means little to me, this is the kind of car people could get behind and love. A Car that can obviously improve over time. The current vision of hybrids, Parallel, is not something people can feel as strongly for because when they read the output stats, they sound absolutely pitiful. Add to this that that you have to one) drive the car harder (owing to perceived or actual loss of performance), two) they cost some much more than even the top tier unit, and three they don’t really compensate for normal driving habits (though those are slowly changing), and Hybrids today are very limited return on one’s investment.

Serial Hybrids just all around sound better on paper and if electric cars likt the TESLA roadster and any indication, are much better than Parallel… plus they are fully upgradeable. Fuel cells become available? swap out the engine and generator for one (Fuels storage as well), better batteries show up, swap those, better motors, swap those, like tuning up a R/C race car. It’s vastly simpler than is it now. Plus they are easier to design and manufacture, so they cost less. Lower weight as well, due to the lack of heavy supports and braces needed to hold and engine and transmission in place. Batteries might be a problem for the foreseeable future but much more manageable. Especially given than most batteries for Hybrids weigh less than the engines and trannies in most family cars.

Purpose built hybrids instead of just tacking the stuff on will also help greatly. Engineers can work out problems with weigh, balance, and so on. When Hybrids first hit the Prius was the first “rock star” because it was purpose made to be a hybrid. TOYOTA should not have stopped there. They should have gone on and made a purpose made mid-sized hybrid and phased out the CAMRY as is. Maybe they will, but making Hybrid drive an option, and an expensive one at that, sours its taste to the car-buying public at large.

As is Hybrids are on the short end of a very long stick and they don’t seem to be gaining much ground.

I just test drove the Prius and Civic hybrids. They are almost to the point of acceptable performance. *Almost*. Both are due for updates in 2009. Also, 2009 is when Ford comes out with its next generation hybrid for the Escape and Fusion/Milan.
If Honda/Toyota/Ford can give these cars a more useable power range at a competitive cost, then sales will take off.

Z06- For the US market Toyota has only 3 autos (out of the 16 total in Toyota’s lineup) that are hybrids: the Prius, Camry Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid. I wouldn’t call that “putting all their eggs in one basket.”

Toyota Motor Company seems to be one of the most responsible in gauging consumer interest (hence why the Hino-deveoloped super-duty Tundra was never released due to gas prices, the FJ Cruiser went from pure concept to production, and why the Lexus LF-A has gone through two redesigns and years of testing before production). Let’s also not forget the other car companies that have also jumped on the hybrid bandwagon. If hybrids lose popularity in the future it would be interesting to see which car company still responds to public demand.

Or maybe it’s because consumers are becoming more aware of the extra expense to purchase one versus the actual fuel economy. Which especially with the Prius is bogass. I have spoke to several people that own them and not a one is getting the economy they were either told or shown according to the manufacturer.

Maybe the hybrid fad is starting to go away. Although I don’t think consumers are coming to their senses about how inefficient hybrids truly are (accurate MPG ratings aside), I do think that they are realizing that there are other fuel efficient vehicles. That, plus people are adjusting their spending habits to higher gas prices. The panic is starting to diminish. The sky is no longer falling. (Imagine that!)

RobCali: There was a post last week that seems to prove that Toyota is, in fact, putting a lot of their eggs in one basket. I don’t think it’s all but it’s a lot.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-everything-will-be-hybrid.html

Gee, only 50% of all car buyers currently considering hybrids. Considering that hybrids have only been on the market for seven years (and a niche market for the first several years), this is a remarkably high number. Double that of diesels, which have been around longer than any of us. I was talking just today to an SUV owner who is thinking of buying a Prius because everybody he talks to who owns one likes it (including me). Neither one of us is crazy about the design, but it is a matter of function over form – the most interior space in a small footprint with the lowest possible coefficient of drag (Cd = .26, best on U.S. market). The average driver gets right around 48 mpg, yes that’s 12% below EPA average of 55, but it’s still twice that of an average car and name a vehicle where most drivers are within 10% of the EPA. That’s why the numbers of all cars are being adjusted.

The hybrid fad is not going away – totals being sold are still going up, now over 2% of all cars sold are hybrids (I think last month it was 2.4%). I got a car with a lot of bells and whistles for $23K, the fact that the hybrid option will pay me back in 4 years plus add to its resale value is just icing on the cake. Plus I have the satisfaction of knowing I am funding as few terrorists as possible and reducing pollution at the same time that I am saving money. It is not patriotic for Americans to waste fuel.

Hopefully the Chevy Volt will be developed soon, that is even a better solution. Electric cars are coming too (Tesla, Zap, NMG, etc.), they will start as a niche market in the next 3 years but will grow, since unless there’s a major change in geopolitical forces, oil prices will continue to be above $70/barrel, then $100/barrel. I don’t see anybody predicting $35/barrel for this year like some were saying a year ago.

“50% are currently considering…” Meanwhile 50% are considering 28ft Carolina Classics, summer homes in the Hamptons, and outrageous sex with 14 Tahitian prostitutes… but that doesn’t mean that many would actually buy one. Hybrids are a fad, I’ve said that since day one. They’re nothing more than a piss poor stop gap until we get to full electrics and fuel cells. Toyota is betting a lot on hybrids, they’ve already made such claims. If they keep pushing them like they intend to, they’ll start losing customers faster than they gained them. As always, if I were terribly unhappy with the mileage I get from my daily-driver Regal GS (upwards of 30mpg) I would buy a diesel, but I’m not, so I’ll stick with my “stodgy, old” Buick.

Well how ’bout dem apples? Like I’ve been saying, diesels or multi-forced injection are the way to go, since they actually live up to their claims.

Most people think of diesels as dirty and noisy in America, I hate to say, maybe simply because emissions restrict almost any and all diesels in small cars and SUVS… large, smokey trucks are the largest market for diesels currently.

I would love to see a hybrid diesel though, that would probably get them passed silly emission tests and increase economy even more, the benefit of all. Lot’s of torque from electric and diesel, great economy, what else?

Yes, and I also have friends that have driven around the Honda Insight, Toyota Camry Hybrid and Toyota Prius… they’ve been getting around 10 to 20 miles to the gallon less than promised.

And tell me again, what’s the cause for gas price flux’s on the brink of summer, 80 cents and up in the matter of one week? lmho, It’ll just keep creeping up and up…

Well, being from mainland Europe, where diesel powered cars usually represent 50-60% of new car sales, and being a proponent of diesel in my comments, I must say that diesel is the more rational solution, though ot has some problems as well, as moving towards diesel implies refining capabilities, since the amount of diesel fuel you can get from an oil barrel is a fix value, unlike gasoline, where better refining processes can improve the amount produced. In europe, diesel is cheaper than gas, though its price might grow, since we might be reaching a point when there is some shortness of diesel available, biodiesel is a good solution, something like B20-B30 blend, though that could have some impact on agricultural prices. Maybe reducing engines sizes, using smaller turbocharged gas engines could solve part of the problem, many manufacturers are trying it over here.

So the Prius is like the “Model T of hybrids”???? That makes the hybrid century all of like 8 years.

So the moral of the story is become like europe, stop ****ing around with hybrids that to marginally better than their normal petrol counterparts (prius aside), and then do worse for the environment in the long run by introducing batteries.

Mythbusters did a test a while back as to what it took to run a diesel car off of various types of oil. And the changes that needed to be made to the car, none. If the diesel technology is already there, proven to be reliable, and is easily adaptable to a “Greener” version of itself. I don’t see why people would insist on a new technology which at face value is A) More expensive to produce (fiscally & economically) B) More expensive to maintain (battery replacement) and C) More dangerous once it’s out of service (batteries again). I don’t care what kind of gas mileage it gets, it’s simply not worth the cost in the long run, which sadly, people don’t seem to consider (enough).

Finally some consumers are realizing that hybrids are all hype. Diesel > hybrid.

People are comfortable with old, established technology. Plus dissemination of information on diesels is easy now that everyone knows how to search for info on the web.

I’d rather go with diesel as well. Something about hybrid drivetrains scares me; too new, too many things to go wrong. Most car manufacturers (like VW) can’t even get the base electrical systems right, how am I supposed to rely on hybrid drive?

Are you listening to this alan mullaly? People are starting to want diesel. Come on big 3 nows your chance!

I think people figured out its cheaper just to keep the car they have instead of
actually purchasing a whole NEW car(a hybrid).
There are some people who panicked and bought one thinking gas prices were going to skyrocket.
For the most part, hybrids are for people who want to make a
political statement.

I like diesel, particularly the promise of biodiesel, but keep in mind that a gallon of diesel contains about 25% more hydrocarbons (it’s also heavier, for the same reason), so even though you go farther on a gallon, you’re still polluting about the same per mile. Until biodiesel is widely available, that is.
Hybrids may be over-hyped slightly (I don’t like the fact that Toyota has been using the 2007 EPA figures for their advertisements), but the fact is, Prius still gets double the gas mileage of any equivalent vehicle, so the hybrid technology holds the most promise of this decade.
For performance – because of the electric motor, the Prius will outperform many cars across the intersection, and have a better 0-60 time than the biggest SUVs. (Top speed of the Hummer H1 is 88 mph). But it also has a display that shows you what your mileage is as you drive, so people realize that hot-rodding it will destroy your mileage. Thus, many Prius drivers deliberately drive under the performance available in the car.
Fuel cells? More like fool’s cells. Those won’t be available to the consumer in any numbers for at least decade and by then electric cars will be in force, and much, much more economical. There are places that fuel cells can be useful – backup power generation perhaps, space flight, etc. but not in vehicles.
RicardoHead – the Model T was the forerunner of modern cars, just like the Prius is the forerunner of future cars incorporating electric drive. You’re seeing history being made.

I guess people are noticing that you don’t need a hybrid to get decent gas mileage… why go slow and efficient when you can go fast and efficient!

VW has its GTI running at 24/31 with a 0-60 in the low six seconds and will be releasing incredibly efficient and fast TDI models next year *think 40+*. BMW will have a 50ish mpg turbo diesel M class and is expecting to expand its fuel efficient models; Mercedes is expected to soon follow… European cars, gotta love em

Hmm, That’s kind of suprising.

Hybrids are crap. I you’re really that interested in “saving the environment” then i suggest you wait until hydrogen cars become fully operational or just start walking and cycling to work.

Comment by c4Menace:
………. “European cars, gotta love em”
.
until you have to pay the repair bill.

this is all ridiculous, any serious person would bypass all this BS and go str8 to electric only. Why do you think the auto manu’s were in such a hurry to crush the electric cars they made? The Oil companies told them to or they will not continue to fund them, because they know that is where the future of the automobile lies.

Studies show that even all your electric power provided by dirty coal is still much cleaner than gas, studies also show that the “Battery issue” of being a serious pollution problem is not true. If you read the fine print they speak of lead acid. No lead acid batts are used in electric cars anymore. NiMHi, Lithium ion and gel pack batts are used that are extremely recyclable due to the materials used and are not a threat to the environment.

Furthermore we all need to start thinking about use of fuel vs price. Im talking about those of you who do the math and say “well the added expense of this car here getting better millage but costing more, so i’ll have to wait 4 years to get my monies worth back” is the wrong equation. Your paying a premium to do your part in saving the environment and thats what matters most. Not how much you spent compared to how much you save.

And no waiting for hydrogen either. Thats a ploy started by the Oil industry. Its just another way to make sure they dont get cut out of the loop. It also makes it look like something better is just above the horizon. The reality is its15-20 years away, its incredibly inefficient compared to pure electric, and they know this. Open up your eyes guys.

“Z06- For the US market Toyota has only 3 autos (out of the 16 total in Toyota’s lineup) that are hybrids: the Prius, Camry Hybrid and Highlander Hybrid. I wouldn’t call that “putting all their eggs in one basket.”

Comment by RobCali, posted on July16 at 4:56 pm

Toyota has recently stated that hybrids will be offered on nearly all of their models, and they believe hybrids are the future of all vehicles. Toyota has also stated that they don’t see diesel as a viable power source for North America, and they don’t have a clear diesel strategy at all. Toyota has not mentioned any other alternative power sources (fuel cell, ethanol, natural gas, plug-in electric, etc.) that they are working on. I call that putting all their eggs in one basket.

You also ignored all of the Lexus hybrid models Toyota is currently selling. So it’s way more than just 3. GS hybrid, LS hybrid, and soon IS hybrid and a hybrid sports car. No diesel, no E85, no electric – all hybrids.

Hydrogen is fine if you’re talking about hydrogen fuel cells

The best bet is serial hybrids. They leave the power options very open.

Bryce:

good point what MPG do the Yaris and Aveo get?

Nerf: I call straw man. How many peopl drive H1s?

I think we are overlooking the most obvious way to reduce consumption – buy fewer new cars and maintain the present ones to a higher standard. How many cars do you see out there with low air in one or more tires?

Just imagine all the resources used in designing, testing, and manufacturing a new car. Not just the manufacturer, but their suppliers, and all the raw resources that must be refined.

Sure cars wear out, and older ones are less efficient than some of the newer ones, but at what point does that efficiency overcome all the pollution used in creating a new car?

Buying more stuff for the sake of having something new isn’t the solution. Consumer brainwashing. A bit like slapping a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

HAHAHAH TOLD YOU SINCE THE BEGINNING
DIESELS RULE
HYBRIDS SUCK
HIPPIES STILL WOULDNT LISTEN

kosai03, what do you really know about hydrogen and hybrid energy systems? i’m guessing you get most of your info from this site. 99% of the opinions on this site come directly out of the ass.

i read all the same site you guys do. it doesn’t make me an expert on anything.

Comment by leozug, posted on July17 at 11:55 am

Yes, because I’m running around claiming to be an expert on the subject. I also get information from automotive media and science media

the people who claim the hybrid mpg numbers are way off more than likely dont realize they can be driven “smartly” to increase numbers substantially. if you are using your cruise control with a hybrid, you are hurting mileage. also, jack rabbit starts with a hybrid is a good thing. in city conditions and the battery charged, a quick burst to the speed limit gets the battery working quicker and ive had many 50-100 mile city drives over 60mpg. a hybrid has to be driven the correct way or the mileage will suffer.

Interesting Murphy1. I have driven my dad’s 06 prius many times and can’t get it past 45 mpg for the life of me. I think the new epa estimates that bring the prius down to 48 mpg (from 60) supports “real world” results that i’ve gotten as well as others that have posted here.

Cutting off hybrids helps with regenerative braking thereby saving the planet. Plus it’s fun.

Verde: you have a good point

rey323, i have averaged 48 since ive owned it and have had 9 50+ mpg tanks. i live in florida and do alot of hwy miles. i do know that if you city drive and the battery isnt charged the mileage does suffer, and the 45 you state would be right. the highway mileage keeps the battery charged so when i do go to city driving the mileage is up….

jackjimturkey:
Aveo manual 27/37; Yaris manual 34/40.

Verde:
It’s not a responsibility of the manufacturer to pour money into maintaining used cars. It’s not the government’s responsibility to mandate that, either. That is walking a very fine line between economic security and environmental protection. In my opinion, the threats to the environment posed by man are merely hype. Our contributions are miniscule in comparison to even one massive volcanic eruption. There are many, albeit a minority, who do keep cars for ten years, sometimes more, and who maintain those cars. By the way, market conditions already exist that determine the lifetime of used vehicles. In fact, a vast majority (I don’t know a percentage) of vehicles are used.

…of vehicles were purchased used.*

THE MERCEDES-BENZ E CLASS BLUE-TEC HAD MADE GREAT CHANGES ALL OVER THE WORLD…VERY VERY IMPRESSIVE MODEL.