In the other news…..Lexus takes top spot in latest FUGLY design study…..

1115, too bad you cant brag after all that poppy**** you spewed about how these surveys are all irrelevant, biased, and completely inaccurate.

hahahahahhah what happened to BUICK?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!

cant wait to see how tripleonefive spins this. No longer can the Toyonda humpers say that their cars have better build quality. I have been saying this for years. Once Toyota and Honda cant sale their cars due to their relability they are going to be in trouble. People dont buy Toyotas because they are fun to drive they buy them because the work. Now with Ford and GM building cars that (according to this survery) work just as well I see problems for Toyota. Americans build cars that have passion not just purpose. Go DOMESTICS!!! BUY AMERICAN

Good for Lexus. I’m surprised their drivers were awake long enough to register any complaints at all.

The only miles that get put on their cars are to the grocery store and back, at the speed limit, so of course they arent going to have as many problems.

If toyota had cars from ford and gm like the new taurus or lacrosse, we would all be screwed!

Not really surprising. Next the media types need to realize that so they quit their anti-american agenda.

I’m happy that the domestics have caught up in IQS
That’s fine and dandy
After, what…….20+ years of the study, I would hope they would’ve learned something
Those awards don’t mean as much
When they get placed In the casket with you.

Reckon the domestics may not be around long enough to catch up in the Dependability study.

I do have one philosophical issue with these surveys.
Hard to compare Porsche to Chevy, for example.
How many models, actual cars, is Porsche making a year?
How can you compare it’s quality, and factor in it’s a luxury car maker, with companies that literally make millions of cars a year?

Luxury car makers, partial line makers (VW, Honda, Hyundai), and full-line makers should be segmented from each other.
You can’t fairly put them on a level field for quality based on volume and price.
DrFill

Id, kinda confused by your comment. Buick scored 1.17 problems per vehicle and Toyota scored 1.01, a difference of .16 per vehicle. That is such a minor difference that only a person looking to make his point, and knowing nothing about statistics, would use multiple punctuation marks in his “dig”.

Lets get real here. Quality is so close, especially initial, that it means almost nothing.

I mean the best in the bunch is .8 and the worst is 1.6. Sure it is double but double almost 0 is still almost 0.

Yeah But Chevy is Last as Always and where the should be!

Fill, do not get your comment about the domestics and the Dependability study. Buick is at the top in #1 spot. Cadillac, Ford and Mercury are not far behind.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.aspx?ID=2009043

I think the biggest issue here is again, as in IQS, they are all getting so good that quality, as measured by JD Power, is no longer much of a differentiator. Not much difference between 1.2 and 2.0.

Actually Chevy is 9th out of 37 marques and folks like you need to grasp at any “straw” to make their incorrect beliefs known to others to make their incorrect point.

Again not any significant statistical difference between 101, 102, 103. This is a sampling of the owners and another survey done today would probably have the scores reversed.

As mentioned before, having good quality is great… having great quality AND design (although subjective) is even better!

It’s not that lexus has bad design, It’s just like Toyota how they rush their products to production, skipping a design refinement process..

So, hopefully they are able to set up their refinement process..

Auto
The people seem to like their “design refinement process”, whatever the hell that is.
I think you made that up.
The TPS system is running in fine order, as this study, and the dependability study, will attest

Carstuff
As you can see, the domestics still have a hill to climb in dependability
Even if they do make it, Toyota and Honda have been making it for 20+ years?
DrFill

BTW, Buick makes exactly 3 vehicles.
How impressed should I be with their quality?
You make 3 CARS!

What I don’t understand is Mini
They make one car!
Build the friggin thing right!
It’s the size of a lunchbox, for Christ’s sake
DrFill

Realistically most of Lexus buyers aren’t all that young and enthusiastic. If there is a rattle, they probably will not hear it since ear bud will muffle the noise. I think it is in the same category as Buick being second to Lexus. Those folks are great full for living and not gonna sweat small stuff. Arthritis and constipation is another matter………..

A4 I dont need to brag the Lexus and Acura (J2 Luxury) have the highest resale and are already proven to be superior The JD powers are for people like you Caddy and the others who have no basis for eqauting Gm and Ford quality with the Japanese 2 My point has already been proven
JD is an MR company nothing more
Not even a nice try

nobody’s mentioned it, so i’ll point it out…fear the koreans…they’ve quietly slipped very high up on that list…

I don’t give a f*** what J.D Power or whoever says, “initial quality survey ” doesn’t mean s***. My version of intial quality is 15yrs, 200,000+ miles. I don’t believe this crap (FORD and Chevy’s quality are on par with Toyota) until I see a whole bunch of 15yrs old Fords anh Chevys with over 200,000+ and still run strong.

Yep, if you disagree with the data throw it out.

I’m surprised MB is so high. The rest of the results sound about right. Props to Ford and GM for hanging in there and trying to improve. Right now I wouldn’t consider quality to be a big difference between the Big 2 or Japanese 2 when buying a car. Now quality 5 and 10 years down the road remains to be seen.

let me ask you guys something.
20, 30 years ago, when GM held AT LEAST 50% of the US vehicle market share, and the Big 3 combined had over 70% market share?
How many vehicles do you think that was?
lets do some math
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&tdim=true&q=population
population today of 304,059,724

we’ll use a number around 200,000,000, less than the total population in 1982 and figure that only about 60% of these people were able to drive at the time
so thats $140,000,000 who were able to drive

140,000,000-70%(big 3 market share)=98,000,000 big 3 vehicles on the road in thru the mid 1980’s

98 million vehicles

ya think there would be some problems you’d notice when your japanese 3 only have a 30% market share?

with a mere 29,400,000 there will definitely be less problems than that of the Big 3. its common sense

another example

im a computer hacker designing a virus to take over the world.
PC’s have like an 80% market share while Apple computers hold about 20%

which operating system would I attempt to hack to allow quicker and greater access to MORE computers?
SIMPLE
pc’s.

we’ll take our population today and round it to 300,000,000

80% of 300,000,000 is 240,000,000
20% of 300,000,000 is 60,000,000

thats 180,000,000 more PC’s than Apple computers in the market today.
more chances for more problems.

But sorry, i forgot PC’s are ****. and GM cars are ****

didnt toyota have three models removed from consumer reports recommended list in 07 for mounting quality problems. I only bring that up cuz there is always a lot of talk about the past.

“Reckon the domestics may not be around long enough to catch up in the Dependability study.”

Dr. fill:

You are known for making nonsensical statements but that one takes the cake. All three of the domestics are still in business and will be for the foreseeable future. Why would you make such a stupid statement? Thats the thing about being a limited intelligence import fanboy- you always have to come up with excuses when reality smacks you in the face and reminds us all that there isnt a huge gap in quality even though that concept is something that you’ve staked your very existence on for years.

Carnut:

I see GM and Ford vehicles from the 90s on the road every single day of the week. Vehicles like the Park Ave, Aurora, Impala, Crown Vic, Lesabre, etc. are common sights in my City. Don’t be a fool.

I don’t really understand bigs4610’s argument. I understand that if a car company makes more cars, there’s going to be an absolute number of cars with problems. And with the the Domestic 3’s market share shrinking from 70% to about 50% — making “less” cars should equate to greater quality control.

But look at the import’s perspective … in the 1980s, they had a small portion of the market share, yet their quality was good. It’s now 2009 and their market share has gone up dramatically since the 1980s, yet their quality is just as good (if not better). What does that say to the import’s ability for quality control over the Domestic 3?

Anyway, I’m not big into JD Power’s methodology to measure “initial quality”. Who has my hard earned dollars is how well the car feels when I test drive, the fit and finish of the interior, how often I have to fill up the tank, and most importantly, how much I have to pay to keep the car on the road!

Based upon my experience, Honda/Acura are best when it comes to fuel economy (up until this point) for the performance and Inifiniti has a great car in the G37 coupe. (Genesis coupe may be nice but it’s no G37 …) Lexus currently doesn’t make a sporty coupe, so they were never on my radar when I was car shopping …

Hey Dr Fill,

I guess when I refer to the design refinement process i’m talking about a specific stage in the aesthetic design process.

When they draw the car, they then create it in 3D on clay (small clay version). If it is chosen to be seen on a full size clay car, they will apply more detailed/specific engineering criteria to it. They will then scan the full size clay car to the computer where it is converted to a digital model where even more criteria will be added eg. engineering.

Now here is the part for the refinement process, when they put the digital model back into clay, the designer, depending on how ‘good’ they are, will be able to see things that they want to be adjusted to bring the design more true to the original concept/sketch. This will involve much to-and-fro between engineers and designers (refinement) until they are happy with it, or when time runs out.

You are correct to say that this study shows there is nothing wrong with their engineering design/manufacture process. I should have mentioned I was purely talking from an aesthetics design point of view.

same deal with Porsche How many people own a Porsche and if so how many use it everyday like a Honda ? The entire methodology is flawed, When I first got on this baord I posted a link regarding JD Powers and their “pay for play ” methods. They cant be trusted and they are an MR company The Lexus is the better car compared to Gms but its not because of this study

CarsNut
“until I see a whole bunch of 15yrs old Fords anh Chevys with over 200,000+ and still run strong.”
you ever ride in a taxi before???? Ford Crown Vic. Take a look at the odometer some time will ya.

Being an novice car buff I lack the backround to compete with you guys. There are two things that I do know. 1. J.D. Powers is a big bunch of pay to play, one sided, shallow, know nothings. 2. I personally know a livery operator who has domestic products that have hundreds of thousands of miles on them. These are Suburbans, Navigators, and Town Cars, maybe Mr. Powers ought to talk to someone else. It appears that folk that really use cars don’t have the time to slam opinions on cars sites or communicate with J.D. Powers.

bigs4610, your second example fails. A kid could hack into a Microsoft based computer. You need to be a REAL genius to hack into a mac! Microsoft SUCKSSSSSSS!!! QUALITY OVER QUANTITY!!!!!

So glad to see that everyone is improving. We definitely need the domestics to improve (especially GM since they’re in bankruptcy) to help out the US economy. Sadly though.. my next car will be german. What can ya do?

Triple on stupid:

They compare PROBLEMS PER 100 VEHICLES. They dont need to get the same number of responses from Porshe owners as they do from Honda owners to publish a PPV statistic. Saying low volume brands should be discounted because they don’t match the volume of the larger players is ridiculous. This is why everything is evaluated proportionally.

JD Power allows its name and awards to be used in ads for money. That is not the same as being paid for results you moron. JD Power could care less WHO tops the lists because theoretically any winning automaker will pay to use JDP’s name in their ads. WHy would JD Power care if Lexus or Chevy came in #1? Use common sense. Everytime something positive comes out regarding domestics you resort to absurd excuse making and sound like a child.

You claim their methodology is flawed but don’t explain why. Unlike CR they dont survey the same people over and over again. CR’s methods are akin to doing policital polls but only questioning loyal Fox news viewers every time you poll. Its lunacy and its supported and defended by people who have no idea how sampling works.

PROBLEMS PER 100 VEHICLES- You can whine all you want but it doesn’t matter.
If 100 Garage kept Porsches are being compared to 100 everyday use Honda it is still flawed.

They aren’t testing new cars they are evaluating the owners. I think the sample is 46,000 people who mail in a survey with everything from mechanical repairs to the button layout
Unlike you and the others my story never changes. Facts back up what I have to say so I don’t have to flip flop. Yes the Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus have higher quality, resale and are more reliable than the cars from GM or Ford. No commercial that Ford or GM makes will change that, only building a solid car that will go 10 + years without recalls or major mechanical failures will make them equal. In order to do that the cars from GM and Ford have to stand the test of time just like Honda and Toyota did and currently do. Ford seems to have a better shot at this since GM had to recall their “new GM’s” already and proved that they are just as unreliable as the “Old GM’s”

JD Powers are NOT an automotive authority therefore their data is useless.

don’t older toyondas rust like crazy??? Until I see a new Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus not rust out in ten years their body integrity will be far below Ford.

Fusion cough cough 5 years and no recalls cough cough reliable enough??

Japanese cars had an issue with rust until the 1980s I can gladly pull up some examples of what Detroit was going through at the same time ????

Fusion cough cough its actually 4 years cough cough 6 more years to go cough cough you’r e a douchebag cough cough

I’m just going to throw it out there (not being racist) that Toyota is japanese owned and runned (obviously). most japanese people (not all, but especially in business) are low key and dont like being flashy. thus, japanese cars have a tendency to be boring cars. obvioulsy there are exceptions to my methodology, but the logic is sound. plus, even for the cars that are designed in the states, headquarters in japan have ultimate veto powers. just throwing it out there

winnipegjets:
You are right and they are very boring.

“JD Powers are NOT an automotive authority therefore their data is useless.”

No you fool they are not an auto authority but that is irrelvent. You only need to understand how to gather sound data to produce results. Being an “authority” on the subject at hand means nothing. CR knows little about cars and yet you believe in their BS results. People that rate toasters and vacuums for a living do not qualify as car experts. No survey can account for how cars are driven. I might as well say Lexus results should be dismissed because Lexus owers are old and don’t drive their vehicles as hard as Cadillac or BWM owners. Stop trying to emphasize variables that cannot be accounted for in any way. If Porsche owners say their vehicles are trouble free for 90 days we have no reason to doubt them.

The sample is not 46k people, its 80k people. Wrong again.

NOTHING you say is backed up by facts, dont delude yourself. I challenge you to name one reliable source of reliability data for vehicles that are 10+ years old. Please provide a link that can back up your claims that no American cars last longer than a decade. If you do that I will acknowledge you are correct once and for all. If you cannot, then you need to stop making false claims. YOu are asking for proof of something that cannot be proven because there is no data out there tracking the performance criteria you want to see. Basically, all we have is anecdotal evidence and I can find a domestic car owner to vouch for their 10 year old domestic just as easily as you can produce a Honda fanboy who claims their civic has operated for 150k miles without needing tires or an oil change.

CR knows little about cars and yet you believe in their BS results
-Please tell me when I have ever beleived in Consumer Reports WRONG
Stop trying to emphasize variables- HA That is what american car lovers do ignore the variables That is why Ford and GM claim quality on par with Toyota and Honda bc people like yourself ignore the variables
Whether its 46000 or 80000 or 100000 its still innaccurate. My main point of resale reliability and quality of the J2 are backed up by fact on auto motive websites and KBB which is used in courts of law so you are WRONG again
I have never said that American cars cant last longer than a decade with problem I have said numerous times that they sinply have not The New GMs and Fords havent been out long enough to prove quality vs the japanese so WRONG again
3x WRONG dont make a right
If you can produce solid proof that GM and Ford are on par with Toyota and Honda please show it. Show me where the comparable cars have higher resale value and are of equal or higher quality?
If not, then you need to stop making false claims. I have been correct since I stepped on this forsaken board of wanna be’s
Ill be waiting Sj

triple stupid:

KBB doesnt rate reliability or quality. They rate resale values and do car reviews. What are you talking about?

I just read a camry is expected to hold 47% of value over 3 years vs 45% for Malibu. You call that a huge gap? That is barely worth mentioning you moron. What is wrong with you?

If you dont trust CR or JD Power where the hell do you get your data? Provide some names or links or shut up. Its that simple.

What proof do you have that American cars dont last longer than 10 years? Please provide something to back this up. ANYTHING. I never said anything about NEW Fords or GM you jackass. I see GM products from the 90s (that is more than 10 years ago) on the road all the time. its not unusual so your statement is a lie- as is virtually everything you claim.

There is no point in comparing reliability because you have already said you dont believe any of the most trusted sources. CR (which I dont endorse) has said Ford quality is on par with Toyota and Honda quality. JD Power’s 3 year dependability study shows Buick and several other domestic brands in the top 10 above noted import brands. Since you dont accept those sources how in the hell do you propose I “prove” to you that domestic quality is on par with Toyota and Honda? You dismiss any source that produces results you disagree with which shows you could care less about objective data.

I can only assume you aren’t as stupid as you pretend to be and you are doing this for laughs.

sj79
now you got it.

KBB doesnt rate reliability or quality. They rate resale values and do car reviews. What are you talking about?
“`the higher resale and automotive authorities rate Toyota and Honda higher not JD Powers not cr and certainly not you

I just read a camry is expected to hold 47% of value over 3 years vs 45% for Malibu. You call that a huge gap? That is barely worth mentioning you moron. What is wrong with you?
“`What is expected is different than what is The Camry and Accords are worth more and more reliable than the Malibus The new one can “expect ” all it wants but has not proven anything yet . Im sure you just read that too ….

Since you dont accept those sources how in the hell do you propose I “prove” to you that domestic quality is on par with Toyota and Honda? If you dont trust CR or JD Power where the hell do you get your data? Provide some names or links or shut up.
“`I have already provided where i get my data from and not repeating it My data is fact and comes from an automotive source used in US courts of law. You finally get it by saying you cant prove anyhting and you dont have any reliable automotive authorority sources so you answered your own question Its that simple. so shut your mouth

all I know is that toyonda’s still rust like crazy and until I see the new ones rust free in ten years they will remain rust buckets. kbb just assumes that those cars are not rusted out when they give out those high resale values. Rusted ones loose half there value. And since most toyonda’s rust out kbb is not accurate at all and there for is not accurate at all.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-buying-back-rusty-tacomas-for-more-than-fair-value.html

sj79, I learned a long time ago that it’s impossible to conduct an intelligent conversation with 1115, he simply lacks the necessary comprehension skills.

you are still a douche Bubs
Toyota Looks like those Tacomas were from 1995-2000 so your ten year rule is out and despite this the resale is still through the roof which proves that it was bull**** to begin with . It was half of them and it was so people like you dont whine Toyota really should have bought them back.
so write your stupid post but instead of using the tacoma as an example use the GM truck fires
http://www.leftlanenews.com/gm-recalls-trucks-over-engine-fire-concerns.html
these trucks are later models 2004-2006 …….
MHW stopped talking bc like most of you he couldnt disprove my point and now he is relagated to giving pep talks to other losers who believe in false reports from JD Powers
Pathetic

1115, like always you’re way too predictable, I would have bet a million dollars in Vegas that your comeback would have read exactly like it does. It’s seriously time for some new material, everyone of your posts look like a carbon copy of the last. It doesn’t not matter how much proof you’re provided since you refuse to acknowledge it. Use sj79 as an example, he has owned you on this thread yet you somehow think you have “won” the argument. Simply put, you are a waste of my time and will continue to be until you are able to look at things objectively.

Hey 1115? guess what else has the highest resale value? a fvcking MINI COOPER. and look how reliable that is. fail.

A4, where do you get your data that the mini is unreliable? Remember that any data source out there on quality is flawed and worthless so you HAVE no quality data and the mini therefore has excellent quality. And therefore has excellent resale due to the excellent quality based on no flawed data.

Makes sense, right? Only to one person here. Round and round we go.

Carstuff
All you have to do is show me data from an automotive authority magazine/website that says that GM & Ford’s quality, reliability and resale is equal or more than that of Honda & Toyota. Then you can show me the “new” GM and Ford’s standing the test of time like the Honda’s and Toyota’s have done.
It took Honda and Toyota over a decade until people woke up and realized that they made better cars than the Americans and the rules don’t change for GM and Ford. I will not give GM and Ford a pass just because they are American.
You can spew all of the sarcastic comments you want but until you prove that GM and Ford are in the same league with Honda and Toyota you have nothing

You know, I was reading in Automotive News a few issues ago – it was an issue devoted to the Honda story and why they are where they are today – and the execs at Honda specifically mention JD Power as one of the keys to their success. Thay said they looked at the data to see where they needed to improve and implemented changes based on JD Power surveys. Pretty smart, I’ll admit. Honda and JD Power grew together, according to the Honda people.

But wait… doesn’t that shoot down 1115s ‘theory’ about JD Power being a GM fanboi organization, or them being ‘pay for play’? Gee, who would have thought 1115 doesn’t know what he’s talking about?

1115

“only building a solid car that will go 10 + years without recalls or major mechanical failures will make them equal.”

Can you give me some examples of any car or truck made by Honda or Toyota that has gone through 10+ years of production without a recall or major mechanical failure? I’d like to hear them. They way you talk it’s the majority of their products that are so flawless. Of every model those two automakers have produced and sold over the last 30 years in here North America, how many have had perfect track records? I’m dying to find out. Let’s hear some of those ‘facts’ that you like to claim you always use in your arguments. I already know you won’t answer my questions in context, though. This is just another way to show everyone how much you talk our of your arse.

Step away from the Fanboi!

Well Injuraiv
IPlease show me where I said that JD Powers was a “GM Fan boy” I don’t even use silly terms like that
If the article mentioned does exist post it. I’m sure you read it in the library next to the alley you sleep in. in your spare time. I hear people are rushing to the Pontiac dealers to get their hands on the G3’s

While I’m glad you are reading during your stint of unemployment however I am not happy with your exaggerations. I’m sure you would like to believe that Honda consults with JD Powers to make major mechanical changes on their cars that have a great effect on their resale and long term reliability. I’m sure Honda uses JD Powers along with many other focus groups to determine where Americans like their cup holders and other useless nonsense. Most companies conduct marketing research,which is what JD Powers is, an MR company nothing more. What JD Powers is not is an automotive authority. They have no long term reliability study the only thing they have is mail in surveys from car owners and some psuedo formulas. I know this is all you and the other have to rely on to argue but when broken down the study means virtually nothing. .One example is the Mercury Milan scored higher than the Ford Fusion and they are made in the same factory and identical so keep wanting to believe these studies are accurate. Speaking of Ford they conduct their own studies and come up with their own data claiming they are “unsurpassed” by Toyota and Honda

Quote the Raven
What you can do is go to any automotive site and take a look at the reliability record of any Honda or Toyota vs a comparable GM or Ford. Take a look which one has a higher resale and better reliability record. After you do that you can stay on those same sites and show me where these sites say that GM and Ford are equal to Toyota and Honda.
I already know the answer but I like to see you put forth some effort. Lets see who talks out of where.
Ive proven my points for the last 2 years what you need to do is disprove it with the imfo I requested above Remember who is in charge here buddy

Like I said. Not a single one. Thanks for coming out.

Ah I see you looked and found out that Toyota and Honda are still worth more and more reliable
Thanks for playing ….

they all say the gap is now just a sliver.

Why would I look for that? That’s some **** you’re spouting, not me. I’m just waiting for you to back up your own statements. I have nothing to prove here, because I haven’t made baseless claims.

Well Old Raven It seems that you have done worse than make your own baseless claims you have backed up others baseless claims. I’m sure you are a lackey in real life bc you are on this board. You are not the only idiot to back up someone statement only to be silenced when asked for your proof.
You come to the others defense yet you do the same thing they do and that is provide nothing that says that GM and Ford are on par with Toyota and Honda in the resale reliability quality areas WHY HAS NO ONE PROVIDED THIS EVIDENCE ?
Conveniently coming on and then asking for data that I’ve shown time and time again wont help anything. I’ve told you where my data is and I’ve provided links.
Its time you guys did some work and showed some evidence of GM Ford equality instead of piggy backing on others comments using unoriginal and childish insults and “talking out of your ass” Show some link
Ill be waiting and each post without said proof just proves my case even more

http://www.leftlanenews.com/lexus-takes-top-spot-in-latest-initial-quality-study.html

It turns out that even very small differences make for noticeable Initial Quality experience.

For example, 7% fewer Lexus owners will have 0 or 1 defect at .84 defects per vehicle than the Mercedes or Toyota owner at 1.01 (during the IQS interval measured at 90days of ownership).

The reason is that the defect density distribution for auto defects is a Poisson distribution, not a bell curve or simple add – subtract math.

The biggest difference is between Lexus and Mini .84 to 1.65. 79% of Lexus owners will have 0 or 1 defect, while only 51% of Mini owners will have 0 or 1.

We all know that Mini’s tend to have “mini” more, but they show up in the JDP longer term quality surveys, which of course, where Lexus continues to shine.

Once in a while I forget to take my own advice and talk to this idiot…

Dumbass (and you know hwo I mean) we’ve been round and round. You seem to accept the fact that I’m in the business and have some idea how things work. I told you I read automotive news and the article is out there. I could provide a link, but that happens to be a pay site. If you want to read the article, sign up and research it yourself. I read it and found it interesting. Honda said it. Get over yourself.

Once again, John David Power and his associates show that they have not a clue.

I was reading Motor Trend not long ago, and some dolt sent a letter to the Ed wondering why the pub picked its five favorites in eight different segments and didn’t include a sigle ride from Toyota’s faux-luxury division. Maybe he didn’t realize that MT staffers ACTUALLY DRIVE the cars.

This “Study” is for people like that.

“Ford and Chevrolet is now virtually on par with that at Toyota.” they were having a hard enough time selling cars that were better than Toyotas. If they start making cars that are “virtually on par with that at Toyota,” they won’t have a chance.

Again, no indication of what a “problem is.” A chevrolet’s radio knob is therefore equal, in these folks’ minds, to a Leaking Toyota head gasket.

“quality is improving throughout the industry.” yep.

MasterYoda2005: “People don’t buy Toyotas because they are fun to drive they buy them because the work..” Yeah, and everyone in my family who bought a Toyota now drives something else.

” Now with Ford and GM building cars that work just as well I see problems for Toyota.” That’s been the case for years. Why will in change now?

johnnycanuck: “I’m surprised their drivers were awake long enough to register any complaints at all.” good one.

DrFill: Good questions, and another thing is the expectations people have. You should have higher expectations of a Porsche than a Toyota.

tripleonefive: When will you see the truth? Glad to know you realize some people see things as they are, and ad your “(J2 Luxury)” to show them where you’re coming from. But what about Datsun?

resale? Today’s Spreen Honda ad: Jeep Grand Cherokee’s asking price is $701 (4.67 percent below it’s KBB value). H-Accord asking price is 19,999, down $1026 (4.88) percent from KBB’s theoretical number.l And you have to realize that it’ll leave the lot below asking price.

CarsNut: “… until I see a whole bunch of 15yrs old Fords anh Chevys with over 200,000+ and still run strong.” Just open your eyes, boy!

Carnut: “I see GM and Ford vehicles from the 90s on the road every single day of the week.” hell, I see some from the ’80s, and even some from the ’70s.

tripleonefive: “The L—s is the better car compared to Gms but its not because of this study.” no, it’s because you say so. No other reason makes sense. I bought a Buick because a Rebadged Toyota wasn’t good enough for me.

sj79: I trust neither CR or JD Power.
“People that rate toasters and vacuums for a living do not qualify as car experts.” Gospel!

“I challenge you to name one reliable source of reliability data for vehicles that are 10+ years old.: The Highway.

“Basically, all we have is anecdotal evidence and I can find a domestic car owner to vouch for their 10 year old domestic just as easily as you can produce a Honda fanboy who claims their civic has operated for 150k miles without needing tires or an oil change.” True dat!

“My main point of resale reliability and quality of the J2 are backed up by fact on auto motive websites and KBB.” KBB is not in touch with reality.

sj79: “KBB doesnt rate reliability or quality. They rate resale values.” But those values are theoretical at best.

“I see GM products from the 90s (that is more than 10 years ago) on the road all the time.” That’s because your eyes are open.

“Since you dont accept those sources how in the hell do you propose I ‘prove’ to you that domestic quality is on par with Toyota and Honda?” It can’t be done.

tripleonefive: “I have already provided where i get my data from and not repeating it My data is fact and comes from an automotive source used in US courts of law.” “1984″-speak, there.

tripleonefive: It took Honda and Toyota over a decade until people started getting massively brainwashed.

oldraven: “Like I said. Not a single one. Thanks for coming out.” I will now match you by predicting that there will be water in the Pacific Ocean come July 4.

tripleonefive: if you’ve shown your data time and again, why can’t anyone remember it? It’d be all right to put it up again, just this once.