Dumb lying jackass. Do you think we’re stupid or something?

Of course it will increase car prices. Like I said, you can’t have one thing without giving up another.

Woo, $6,000 per car. But, hey, at least we’ll save a few hundred on gas ever year! Right!? Wish CAFE was vetoed.

I knew Lutz had had a stroke, this confirms it. Lutz is now fearmongering among the faithful.

Why would RWD affect mileage? It’s the engine, aerodynamics, and weight that effect mileage, not which wheels are driven. I can get 27-29 mpg in my solstice GXP if I really try hard.

He’s exaggerating, but his basic argument is sound. Trying to force the industry in a direction faster than it can realistically go, especially while having different sets of rules for domestics/imports/exotics, will only result in the average consumer (who the politician doesn’t give a rat’s ass about outside of an election year) paying MORE.

Oh c’mon Lutz. Didn’t Terrell Owens do enough crying for everyone yesterday?

I don’t think the costs will ever actually be factored in.

By 2020 most of the technologies will be old hack and will be standard and not replacement components. It’s like getting some options on a car. You are often forced to pay for the parts the optional parts replace. This is rather infrequent but still happens. Besides most F/econ boosting tech exists now and is, in fact, rather inexpensive.

I mean, GM, via Opel, can build hot diesel sports coupes that’ll do 155 mph and return 100+ mpg, Built the Ultralight concept in the early 1990s with a gas engine that got 100 mpg, built the EV-series that didn’t burn gas at all and with today’s batteries would be very practical for many drivers… the list goes on…

Yep. F451 called it, it’s fear-mongering.

The better news is that there will be a thriving used car market while the automanuPimps try to force a $6K upcharge on to the consumer.

ok lutz you moron you better not charge 6g`s more for less car. i can see maybe a hybrid tahoe but not a friggin cobalt or aveo.

F451 and Blakkarr, fear-mongering was the catalyst for CAFE standards.

I’m just wondering if this is even gonna be a big deal.

If you make three cars with 100 MPG stickers Volt (and maybe two variants), that has to send the average skyrocketing, no? I mean, come on, GM will probably give each marque a PHEV eventually. Throw in some E85 vehicles and they should be set to jump through the loophole, no?

these next few years are going to be interesting. i think this time period is going to finish cutting all the fat off of big auto makers.

What Lutz is saying should not come as any surprise to anyone. Who among you did not read in these fora that Toyota was subsidizing their hybrids before they became popular? What do you think the subsidies did? Cover the development costs. What Lutz is saying is that if all technology available was used in cars to meet the CAFE standards the individual cost would be increased by US$6,000.00 . Is that a lot? Not for BMW, Mercedes, Audi, as their least expensive cars go for over US$40,000.00 . Now for GM that tries to have all its cars under US$30,000.00 well optioned it will be a problem. For all other automakers for that matter.

Well the amount is arguable but what CAFE has done in the past is provide for “subsidies” for cheaper high MPG cars in order to sell more higher profit guzzlers, so look for cut rate compacts and subcompacts.

‘Blakkar’ and ‘Brendino’ have some brains … it’s not as bad as I thought … the cage has some evolved life.

Impulsive – dude, i don’t speak up a lot about how people post, but the elitism is unnecessary. why do you have to be so inflammatory?

Ignorance and stupidity bother me … forgive me.

But really, elitism is another realm … I’m only stating FACT.

The Big Three also argued that airbags would decapitate thousands of people. Then when they were forced to install them, they stopped whining and started claiming credit for safety innovation.

Their opening bid is ALWAYS that any safety or efficiency innovation will destroy the economy and kill everybody. Then they backtrack. Don’t believe anything they say.

The Model T got 25mpg. Today the fleet average for many automakers is probably less than that. Yay progress.

V-series, if that were true then they wouldn’t worry about it.

lol @ Jordan. The T also made about 14bhp and weighed, what, 1,500-2,000lbs? It better have gotten at least that.

Reagan said it best “the best government is the least government”. CAFE standards are a government intrusion in an industry that should be driven by the market. Here in Canada we can only imagine having the freedom that many in the US have historically had. What I see here though is the US moving dangerously close to Canadian left wing government intrusion. Hope you guys wake up soon – governments always make a disaster out of everything they try to control – we Canadians know this from experiance.

‘Axehead’, tell your story to the many who will be suing all the banks for losing their clients’ money … you have no clue what’s coming down the pipeline this year and next. Sure, let them create derivative bombs and invest recklessly while the average Joe believes in the system.

A leash is necessary at some level.

AxeHead: great to have another voice from the great white north. And what do you mean ‘Canadian left wing government intrusion’? I’m in B.C. and I just received a letter in the mail the other day from our beloved provincially run insurance gestapo, ICBC, saying I was a high risk driver because I had a whole 3 points on my license- one BS speeding ticket.

Now if you’ve got a minute I’d like to talk about the gun registry…

Impulsive, AxeHead just made a point that I and many others have made too many times. But you’ve twisted it to argue that we are suffering from a lack of choices because there are, in your opinion, too few fuel-efficient vehicles. Well manufacturers didn’t sell vehicles based upon fuel economy nearly as much as utility. And that’s because we all wanted it. But there are econo-boxes out there. Plenty to choose from. And if you’re so gung-ho on not paying for gas, then buy a nice ‘90 Geo Metro. But I’ll keep my “gas-guzzler” because it’s fun to drive, it’s utilitarian, and I’m responsible enough to budget my wants against my needs. I don’t need the government mandating it for me because I’m too much of a weak-suck to do it on my own.

You can keep ignoring reason for as long as you want to, but it won’t add validity to your arguments. You don’t know any more than I do about what will happen in the future. But I do know that you and your kind are prone to wild speculation. That ‘fear-mongering’ that was discussed earlier is a result of panicky individuals (like you) who are taken in by reactionary politics.

“6000 dollars per car” …This comes from a guy that wanted a 16 cylinder 2 seat sports car to become reality. Lutz your such a putz. You have 12 tears to do it(maybe you’ll never see it yourself) and lots of technology coming in those years to do it with. Start with a game changer like the plug in hybrid(Volt) and advance in large volume causing the price to go down and sales will go up. Trucks are never going away, but the average mileage of 35 is what you need to achieve…so with 1/2 of the vehicles getting 70 mpg, the rest will be a cinch…its going to happen…quit complaining and use the CAFE as your new strength.

1. Don’t jump to conclusions … where, ANYWHERE, in any of my posts have I EVER stated that gas prices were, are, or will be an issue for me? Nice try though. The only issue I do have with gas use is the NOx production that aids in the formation of smog.

2. AxeHead discussed government control and if you read two of my three posts that are relevant, you will find his point rebutted more appropriately in the second. My first post argued against the misguided views of those posting before me. But it also explained that government’s hand in directing towards a more fuel efficient future is necessary to avoid a potentially more painful situation. There was no “twisting” of anything.

3. People like you and me may have to bend a little to play a part in a more fuel efficient society. Again, I don’t care if prices double but I’ll bet there are plenty of people who are living borderline and probably couldn’t afford another $2 … that is where my argument for freedom of choice holds water. Many hard working peole won’t be able to afford what they want and may end up with your ‘90 Geo Metro because the manufacturers will be behind the curve. I’ll accept paying marginally more over the span of a decade for the greater good.

4. I ignore nothing … in fact, you and your ilk are ignoring the FACTS I present and responding with idiocy. Are trucks and SUVs selling FAR LESS than they used to? FACT. Are manufacturers hurting because of this? FACT. Are gas prices high enough to cause stress on a large number of society? FACT. Could the manufacturers have done something over the past 18 years to ameliorate the present situation? FACT. Could something be done to lower NOx levels so I don’t have to live under a toxic brew of smog during the spring, summer and fall? FACT.

Honestly, go back and read my posts SLOWLY. Then go back and read yours. You’ll realize you truly are blind, ignorant and foolish to believe what you claim to believe. Your cup holds no water.

“Many hard working peole won’t be able to afford what they want and may end up with your ‘90 Geo Metro because the manufacturers will be behind the curve. ”

Still better than having a screwed up goverment like in many third world countries that actually contributed actively to destroy the economy and makes its people lives miserable. Think about those slaves who can’t afford a $1000 motorcycle. All in all, people in US should stop whining when they still own a car. If they’re broke it’s their fault for leasing everything including 400K homes when they’re making 35K. Stop buying toys and save your damn salary!

@Veda
Good points, especially about people living outside their means.

If inflation continues at it’s current rate and the dollar continues to drop in value, we’re going to have a lot more to worry about than a $6000 increase in the cost of a new car. Economy cars will be well into the $20000s by 2020 any ways. If car companies want a fast fix for this problem, come out with a 50 state legal diesel and throw it into your small cars. Drop the size of the engines currently offered, develop diesels, and lower the weight of the vehicles.

Bull****.

how does it cost more to build smaller cars???

If GM will let Lutz retire and hire couple engine engineers from Honda the savings will be more then $10,000 in todays dollars per future car.
Honda Civic has mileage of 30 city and 40 highway with ultra low pollution rating in 50 states. Civic meets CAFE requirements for 2020 today. The only way GM cars will not cost more if they plan to sell 2008 models in 2020, otherwise new models will have development costt associated with them – read more money. Where the development cost will be appropriated is a different story. You can design more Hummers and Suburbans or you can invest in fuel efficiency and pollution control, but either route will cost.

He is predicting that ALL cars from ALL companies will increase due to the 35MPG standard. Yet, everyone wants to bust on him and GM.

^increase in price

What he is saying is GM is not in as good a postion to deal with this as some of the foreign makes are. Tough **** deal w/it.

Guys, you’re arguing over a contention point posed by Lutz, of all people. Drop the argument, CAFE standards will come and we will all adapt. It won’t happen at once, and it’ll offset gas purchases over the lifetime of the car. Tit for tat. It’s all the same.

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making the H3 ?

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making a new super V8 engine ?

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making the Escalade ?

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making the fattest SUV’s on the planet ?

All high profit vehicles, but GM has to change radically to deal with gas at $3/gallon.

Plus GM has to radically change the way it treats customers and that customer’s complaints about the product they puchased.

Like I stated, ‘Get Real’, CAFE increases over the past 18 years could have prevented this situation … now the irresponsible cry babies come out and try to WAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAA WAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA their way out of it. Suck it bitches … you’ll get CAFE whether you like it or not.

To Get Real,

That new super V8 engine gets 27 mpg, I believe….

It’ll probably do even better when GM starts investing in more advanced engine technology, like Camless technology. This would allow GM to produce a more flexible engine that could be a high revving, high speed V8 engine then a high efficiency four cylinder when cruising.

I would not be surprised if a “standard” C7 got better than 30mpg when it ships. But It won’t hold up much unless they make a faster engine for the car as well.

the willingness to readily submit to Government paternalism is alarming when legislation is passed by Law and Political-Science majors rather than experts in economics, finance, or engineering.

The issue of increased prices to manufacture cars due to CAFE is much larger than Americans being crybabies, Impulsive and Veda. In the midst of a major economic downturn in the U.S. Automotive industry, continuing to make it harder for U.S. to compete with foreign makers in the domestic market won’t certainly help. Truth of the matter is, China is about to begin producing cars to sell in the U.S. shortly, as it is looking to become a superpower vastly beyond the U.S.’s strength. As it stands now, China has skirted all international protocols for environmental standards with their bogus “Developing Nation” status. They don’t give a rat’s ass about the environment and continue to manufacture dirt cheap products for “wonderful” retailers like Walmart.

As it currently stands, previous environmental measures in the U.S. not only hurt the U.S. but the environment. Since the 70s, a new refinery has not been made in the U.S. due to an Anti-U.S. fanatical green movement. Forcing the U.S. to import oil has created the situation we face with the Middle East and Venezeula. By depending on foreign oil where flaring and dumping are not illegal we promote more pollution, we just make sure its overseas. The drilling regulations for the U.S. are the most stringent in the world, we regulate all unused gas and oil to be pumped BACK into the wells, which is not only costly, but unheard of in most other nations. Just take a look at the Gulf of Mexico, the Texan side and the Mexican side. Mis-education has also contributed to exaggerated perception of large amounts of rigs to drill a large amount of area. Rigs do not drill straight down but rather, drill out up to 150 miles in ALL directions because of technologies in Variable Torque Drilling. However, legislators I doubt are even aware of this, but rather feed lies to the public because it’s easy to rally against Big Bad Business.

I do agree with you Impulsive that CAFE should have been focused on during the 90s. During a good economic time, automakers should have been pushed to progress. But now is not the time to be beating a dead horse.

Good point CJC. Greenheads are pawns for anti-capitalist, anti-North American left wing nuts. We see lots of em up here in the north. The real enemy isn’t Japan. At least they are pseudo Democratic nation that produce quality autos. China is a communist nation that doesn’t give a rats ass about America, Canada, they don’t even give a **** about their own people. It’s a nation run by old men holding onto communist ideals who have a totally unfair advantage over North America – no pollution costs, unlimited slave labour, no accounting controls … more. You thought Japan was bad, and maybe Korea was intrusive, wait until they flood the market with cheap, good enough cars that only a fool would buy if they really knew how it was built and what it does to your own economy. Good luck fighting back.

AxeHead: Not quite. China is ran that way due to what their people want, more money money and money. Their “iron hand” of handling things is necessary given the mentality of their people. If you ever go there and go to souvenir shops, you’d get cheated in multiple ways 1 out of 4 times. We can’t argue whether US or China is better at running their countries, but I can say for sure that China’s reputation is a whole lot better than US to the rest of the world. The bottomline of all global politics has always been business. The Chinese will befriend whoever can give them more business. What I would suggest US do is to drop the Sun Tzu’s philosophy and embrace the new karma capitalism or whatever **** they came up with lately. If you can’t beat them, make them your good buddy.

‘CJC’, I don’t think government is the answer to all problems but on this issue, it is. Those “experts in economics, finance, engineering” are the ones who run the country, and I don’t mean in government … and look where that got the country … the banks are bankrupt and running to China, Singapore, the Middle East to shore up their capital reserves … if “experts” are needed, they sure as hell better not be the ones in business running the country into the ground.

Yes, this is all about being cry babies because they don’t get what THEY want … it’s never about the consumer, the general public … it’s about making as much money as possible. Witness the present crying by Lutz and the other heads, and witness the parallel in banking where the “experts” produced derivative bombs that are now coming into the unfortunate detonation phase. Again, leaders, supposed “experts”, who irresponsibly took advantage of the system to make as much money as possible without foresight, concern, accountability, or obligation. As much as it is a right to be profitable, doing it irresponsibly is not right … and the fact that the country is now failing is no reason to blame a government that should have all the while imposed a set of principles, rules, moral obligations on business to be aware that society can run out of control, as is clearly evident today. Had CAFE been in effect for the past 18 years this hit on the economy because of gas prices may have been averted … again, responsibility, rules, principles, moral obligations … not freedom of business to opaquely run freely. Had banking been governed to some degree, CITI wouldn’t have produced an $18 BILLION write-off. Don’t blame China for either situation.

As for global competition, like I stated … adapt and progress or you suffer. Crying, like GM and the banks are doing, fixes nothing. If oil is such a problem, which has been acknowledged decades ago, why hasn’t the country ADAPTED yet. What fronts have been explored to substitute for oil? Instead, the government provides subsidies to big oil, even today, eventhough it makes obscene profits. It’s the people of the country that decided not to build another refinery … not government. It’s the people of the country who bought gas guzzlers … not the government. It’s the people of the country that bought homes with ZERO down and NO job … not the government. It’s the people of the country who will pay as little as possible for Chinese imports … not the government. It’s the people of the country that either have to smarten up or build a government to protect them … it’s obvious business isn’t there to protect the people of the country.

As for beating a dead horse … here’s a metaphor … would you blame an obese man, very sick, who ate fast food or would you blame the business selling it to him?

‘AxeHead’, I hope you’re not referring to me as a “greenhead”. What you can refer to me as, is a “responsiblehead”. If China doesn’t “give a **** about its own people”, I can say the same thing about the U.S. As for the problems you’ve mentioned, the U.S. is more simiar than you want to admit. And like I pointed out to ‘CJC’, don’t blame the Chinese for making money if there are people in the U.S. willing to buy.

The same free market you all want and espouse is a double-edged sword … you live by and you die by it … don’t blame the rest of the world for its faults. Bottom line, CAFE is right … late, but right.

Generally speaking. the Auto industry, particularly DETROIT,makes a habit of fighting anything that smacks even remotely of change. Seat belts, crumple zones, emissions controls, and so on are just a few examples.

When forced to make changes, if Japan and Europe just go with it, because it makes for a more appealing product, then they will do it. DETROIT will fight it tooth and nail but ultimately cave because they want to keep making money so they have to build competitive products.

More often than not I have noted the DETROIT is run by old guys, mostly white (not really sure race holds any merit except cultural prospective), who are stupidly resistant to the changes needed and long term thinking required to make any positive contribution. A much younger more forward thinking, as in “I’m 35 now, what kind of cars would I like to see when I’m 45, 55, 65, about to die?” the one’s that are in control now were building tanks and land yachts and want to keep don’t that as long as they can. Of course, we aren’t demanding they do a better job of it which doesn’t help either.

Most major industries are run by people without any great visions. Maybe they did decades ago but now it is simply about sucking up as much money as possible just to be sucking up money. They spread it around to buy off politicians to get the laws “nerfed” or just dropped to get their way.

Whenever anyone talks about changing the way cars work, heaven forbid someone should actually make a line of cars in the next ten years that does everything when need them to do now (F/econ over 100mpg, same or better performance as today, vastly simpler and more reliable as a result, and so on) While DETROIT is soiling their adult diapers pushing muscle cars that give us what we want but not what we need.

Again, its like “Fruit Loops”, the FDA demands that such cereals meet basic nutritional requirements. they make the changes, adding vitamins and minerals, and so on. Today you can by candy for you milk that is better for you than the Cheeseburger you will have for lunch.

The Government has to step in to make sure DETROIT makes the cars that give us what we need, Seat belts, crumple zones, ESP, Better F/econ and so on, because this companies won’t do it on their own and when Uncle Sam requires it and the foreign marks deliver and the domestics don’t, DETROIT has to follow suit. Now that the people are finally getting a clue in enough and gaining numbers, that the politicians have to listen – only because they want to be elected or re-elected.

CAFE is just another in a long list of basic minimum requirements that these companies should being embracing as a selling point as highly as performance, styling, reliability, and price.

I’m inclined to agree with Impulsive, CAFE is right and it needs to be ironclad. The F/econ benchmarks can be met by 2012-2015 easy 2020 is just room to get it right or better.

These companies pay for the best brains straight out of College to be engineers and pay them very well for those brains. Start getting you money’s worth and start building like your trying to win a war.

‘Peasant’, just more hot air that addresses none of the FACTS delivered earlier. Your dollar will continue to fall, you will all get poorer relatively speaking, oil will hit $200 well before 2015, and some of you will lose a lot of your savings the way your banks are failing. More FACTS, less ignorance, monkey. Continue your worthlessness here, I need fodder to kick around.

Impulsive = Dickhead

Impulsive = RIGHT = FAIR = MORE INTELLIGENT THAN MOST LLN MONKEYS (which isn’t really a fair comparison)

‘AxeHead’ + ‘Peasant’ + ‘Bryce’ + ‘C6Rookie’ = < Impulsive

Google the US Governments CAFE information and you will find what Bob Lutz is talking about. Its funny when people on here make comments without being completely informed. Hilarious!

Our dollar will continue to fall on what basis, Impulsive? You try to spread fear based on no sort of financial models given. For your information Impulsive, due to the depreciation of the Dollar, there’s been an INCREASE in exports to ohh, the European Union. Yes, its true the purchasing power of the U.S. citizen is not the same, nor will it probably be, but that means a chance for U.S. made products to be sold overseas. The last height of U.S. manufacturing was post war 1950’s, which, oh right, the Golden Age of American Automotives. Cars were being produced and sold overseas. With the dollar value favorable for exports to Europe, now would be the time to boost manufacturing to bring in capital and increase the GDP, which inturn would increase the value of the dollar. There has been no stasis reached in the value of currencies since the Euro. I remember when the Euro first came out it was double the amount of a dollar, but since then it has weakened. Impulsive get off your high, rainbow unicorn.

Additionally, I NEVER blamed China for U.S. economic woes. I blamed crackpot legislation passed by people who themselves don’t fully understand what they are legislating. I have no idea why you would point out that experts in economics and finance take advantage of the systems to make money, without regard for the economy. Those experts are in it to make money, they were never concerned how the rest of the system is. That is the reason why oil costs as much as it does; because sellers play up the FUTURE scarcity of oil and buyers read up on Conflict in the Middle East and other oil producing nations, and how there will be little oil production in the U.S. So then they figure, lets buy now and sell when it gets real bad. Its not the investor’s judgement call to worry about the greater good. Its the legislators that must FULLY understand the rules and laws of the system to make sure it keeps operating. Just look at France. Their economy’s a mess, unemployment’s high, working hours are restricted, and there’s riots everywhere. The Minister of Finance was so fed up with their idiotic legislation that he had to drag the legislator into French factories and give them some Economics 101. The capitalist system as we’ve come to know it is not laissez-faire, it’s fair play.

As I was making a point of; China takes care of itself first and then makes buddy-buddy with anyone who sees they can benefit from purchasing made dirt cheap. Why shouldn’t the U.S. look after it’s own economic interests first so that it may be a presentable trade partner?

Finally, how dense are you Impulsive? Your rallying cry is “adapt or die.” But do you understand that CAFE affects cars produced in the U.S. more stringently than those produced foreignly? That was the reason why Toyota even spoke out against the stricter version of the bill as they have major plants in the U.S. now. The World Auto Industry wouldn’t have to Adapt or die. It would be the U.S. made cars given handicaps to be priced competitively.

Great post CJC. I think your point about Repuls… I mean, Impulsive, can be summed up by a qoute I heard a while back. In fact, I believe it came from the great Ronald Reagan himself. I paraphrase, ‘The liberals want you to elect them so they can manage the economy on its way down. Elect me, so I can manage the economy from going down.’ Indeed he did. The problem is libs don’t see a failing economy as a problem, they only see it as a fact of life. This ‘adapt or die’ crap so many keep trumpeting is simply emotional rhetoric, as if they are trying to guilt others into the same view. There’s some odd idea that all things new are good.

I post FACT, ‘Peasant’. You come back with NOTHING of substance or worth, as usual. Laissez faire monkeys like you will cry to their death as they stagnate and lose in the race which is global competition. ADAPT or suffer.

It wasn’t the Liberals that got you in this mess, idiot, so that argument is as worthless as you are … FACT. Had PROGRESS been made over the last two decades, you might not be so dependent on foreign oil but that’s too complicated for you to understand, despite the FACT that it’s the same issue that you encountered in the ’70s … too stupid and lazy to ADAPT then, too stupid and lazy to ADAPT now.

The Republicans are failures and bankrupting your country. FACT. If you don’t feel guilty that your place as leaders in the world is over, you’re dunber than you look. Monkeys never learn. That is why they are still monkeys.

‘Peasant’, you worthless lawn raker, learn something by reading and understanding my posts. I make the rest of you look like chimps. And you respond with monkey screeches. It’s times like this I understand why you primates continue to suffer and I don’t feel sorry at all. You got the leaders you deserve and are now paying for it dearly. Suckers. Bring on $5/gallon, bitches!!!

Impulsive, where exactly do you ride your high magnificient rainbow unicorn from? We all can tell you’re anti-American….

Additionally, I’m still waiting for some sort of coherent counter-argument.

Go back and read all the FACTS I presented rebutting EVERYTHING you argued. ALL FACTS. You’re out of your league.

Just Proves that both parties are inept, vote ron paul.

The only footprint the imp will see is the one on his/her own ass when this scam is brought to light and seen for what it is.This lamb mentality scares me..

This is no surprise.
“At current prices, it’s impossible to build small cars and sell them at a profit, he claimed.” It’s time for a new kind of small car.

Bryce: CAFÉ should be scrapped

Why would RWD affect mileage? It’s the engine, aerodynamics, and weight that effect mileage, not which wheels are driven. I can get 27-29 mpg in my solstice GXP if I really try hard.

V-series: RWD is heavier.

johnnycanuck: shouldn’t you be more concerned about the BC Lions?

CTS DRIVER: “ok lutz you moron you better not charge 6g`s more for less car.” That ain’t the General’s way.

TomF: “Their opening bid is ALWAYS that any safety or efficiency innovation will destroy the economy and kill everybody.” Well said.

Bryce: good points at 1214a on the 15th

Veda: “If they’re broke it’s their fault for leasing everything including 400K homes when they’re making 35K.” hear, hear!

Impulsive: government can’t make things better, only worse. Banks’ chickens are coming home to roost, but the government isn’t letting them pay for their mistakes. So the working man, and the people who bought houses they could afford, and the people who are still saving money for homebuying, get screwed.

Blakkarr: “Most major industries are run by people without any great visions. Maybe they did decades ago but now it is simply about sucking up as much money as possible just to be sucking up money. They spread it around to buy off politicians to get the laws “nerfed” or just dropped to get their way. “

You’re always talking sense, and while I sometimes don’t agree with your points, you typically show solid support for your opinions. That quote is straight truth, though.

Piablo: there’s no real conservative running, and Reagan was not great.

Impulsive: The Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for selling out the working man at to the benefit of giant faceless corporations.

cadillacescaladefan: Ron Paul is too old, and he’s GOP. But both parties are indeed inept