Bryce: CAFÉ should be scrapped

Why would RWD affect mileage? It’s the engine, aerodynamics, and weight that effect mileage, not which wheels are driven. I can get 27-29 mpg in my solstice GXP if I really try hard.

V-series: RWD is heavier.

johnnycanuck: shouldn’t you be more concerned about the BC Lions?

CTS DRIVER: “ok lutz you moron you better not charge 6g`s more for less car.” That ain’t the General’s way.

TomF: “Their opening bid is ALWAYS that any safety or efficiency innovation will destroy the economy and kill everybody.” Well said.

Bryce: good points at 1214a on the 15th

Veda: “If they’re broke it’s their fault for leasing everything including 400K homes when they’re making 35K.” hear, hear!

Impulsive: government can’t make things better, only worse. Banks’ chickens are coming home to roost, but the government isn’t letting them pay for their mistakes. So the working man, and the people who bought houses they could afford, and the people who are still saving money for homebuying, get screwed.

Blakkarr: “Most major industries are run by people without any great visions. Maybe they did decades ago but now it is simply about sucking up as much money as possible just to be sucking up money. They spread it around to buy off politicians to get the laws “nerfed” or just dropped to get their way. “

You’re always talking sense, and while I sometimes don’t agree with your points, you typically show solid support for your opinions. That quote is straight truth, though.

Piablo: there’s no real conservative running, and Reagan was not great.

Impulsive: The Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for selling out the working man at to the benefit of giant faceless corporations.

cadillacescaladefan: Ron Paul is too old, and he’s GOP. But both parties are indeed inept

Additionally, I’m still waiting for some sort of coherent counter-argument.

It wasn’t the Liberals that got you in this mess, idiot, so that argument is as worthless as you are … FACT. Had PROGRESS been made over the last two decades, you might not be so dependent on foreign oil but that’s too complicated for you to understand, despite the FACT that it’s the same issue that you encountered in the ’70s … too stupid and lazy to ADAPT then, too stupid and lazy to ADAPT now.

The Republicans are failures and bankrupting your country. FACT. If you don’t feel guilty that your place as leaders in the world is over, you’re dunber than you look. Monkeys never learn. That is why they are still monkeys.

Additionally, I NEVER blamed China for U.S. economic woes. I blamed crackpot legislation passed by people who themselves don’t fully understand what they are legislating. I have no idea why you would point out that experts in economics and finance take advantage of the systems to make money, without regard for the economy. Those experts are in it to make money, they were never concerned how the rest of the system is. That is the reason why oil costs as much as it does; because sellers play up the FUTURE scarcity of oil and buyers read up on Conflict in the Middle East and other oil producing nations, and how there will be little oil production in the U.S. So then they figure, lets buy now and sell when it gets real bad. Its not the investor’s judgement call to worry about the greater good. Its the legislators that must FULLY understand the rules and laws of the system to make sure it keeps operating. Just look at France. Their economy’s a mess, unemployment’s high, working hours are restricted, and there’s riots everywhere. The Minister of Finance was so fed up with their idiotic legislation that he had to drag the legislator into French factories and give them some Economics 101. The capitalist system as we’ve come to know it is not laissez-faire, it’s fair play.

As I was making a point of; China takes care of itself first and then makes buddy-buddy with anyone who sees they can benefit from purchasing made dirt cheap. Why shouldn’t the U.S. look after it’s own economic interests first so that it may be a presentable trade partner?

Finally, how dense are you Impulsive? Your rallying cry is “adapt or die.” But do you understand that CAFE affects cars produced in the U.S. more stringently than those produced foreignly? That was the reason why Toyota even spoke out against the stricter version of the bill as they have major plants in the U.S. now. The World Auto Industry wouldn’t have to Adapt or die. It would be the U.S. made cars given handicaps to be priced competitively.

‘AxeHead’ + ‘Peasant’ + ‘Bryce’ + ‘C6Rookie’ = < Impulsive

When forced to make changes, if Japan and Europe just go with it, because it makes for a more appealing product, then they will do it. DETROIT will fight it tooth and nail but ultimately cave because they want to keep making money so they have to build competitive products.

More often than not I have noted the DETROIT is run by old guys, mostly white (not really sure race holds any merit except cultural prospective), who are stupidly resistant to the changes needed and long term thinking required to make any positive contribution. A much younger more forward thinking, as in “I’m 35 now, what kind of cars would I like to see when I’m 45, 55, 65, about to die?” the one’s that are in control now were building tanks and land yachts and want to keep don’t that as long as they can. Of course, we aren’t demanding they do a better job of it which doesn’t help either.

Most major industries are run by people without any great visions. Maybe they did decades ago but now it is simply about sucking up as much money as possible just to be sucking up money. They spread it around to buy off politicians to get the laws “nerfed” or just dropped to get their way.

Whenever anyone talks about changing the way cars work, heaven forbid someone should actually make a line of cars in the next ten years that does everything when need them to do now (F/econ over 100mpg, same or better performance as today, vastly simpler and more reliable as a result, and so on) While DETROIT is soiling their adult diapers pushing muscle cars that give us what we want but not what we need.

Again, its like “Fruit Loops”, the FDA demands that such cereals meet basic nutritional requirements. they make the changes, adding vitamins and minerals, and so on. Today you can by candy for you milk that is better for you than the Cheeseburger you will have for lunch.

The Government has to step in to make sure DETROIT makes the cars that give us what we need, Seat belts, crumple zones, ESP, Better F/econ and so on, because this companies won’t do it on their own and when Uncle Sam requires it and the foreign marks deliver and the domestics don’t, DETROIT has to follow suit. Now that the people are finally getting a clue in enough and gaining numbers, that the politicians have to listen – only because they want to be elected or re-elected.

CAFE is just another in a long list of basic minimum requirements that these companies should being embracing as a selling point as highly as performance, styling, reliability, and price.

I’m inclined to agree with Impulsive, CAFE is right and it needs to be ironclad. The F/econ benchmarks can be met by 2012-2015 easy 2020 is just room to get it right or better.

These companies pay for the best brains straight out of College to be engineers and pay them very well for those brains. Start getting you money’s worth and start building like your trying to win a war.

Yes, this is all about being cry babies because they don’t get what THEY want … it’s never about the consumer, the general public … it’s about making as much money as possible. Witness the present crying by Lutz and the other heads, and witness the parallel in banking where the “experts” produced derivative bombs that are now coming into the unfortunate detonation phase. Again, leaders, supposed “experts”, who irresponsibly took advantage of the system to make as much money as possible without foresight, concern, accountability, or obligation. As much as it is a right to be profitable, doing it irresponsibly is not right … and the fact that the country is now failing is no reason to blame a government that should have all the while imposed a set of principles, rules, moral obligations on business to be aware that society can run out of control, as is clearly evident today. Had CAFE been in effect for the past 18 years this hit on the economy because of gas prices may have been averted … again, responsibility, rules, principles, moral obligations … not freedom of business to opaquely run freely. Had banking been governed to some degree, CITI wouldn’t have produced an $18 BILLION write-off. Don’t blame China for either situation.

As for global competition, like I stated … adapt and progress or you suffer. Crying, like GM and the banks are doing, fixes nothing. If oil is such a problem, which has been acknowledged decades ago, why hasn’t the country ADAPTED yet. What fronts have been explored to substitute for oil? Instead, the government provides subsidies to big oil, even today, eventhough it makes obscene profits. It’s the people of the country that decided not to build another refinery … not government. It’s the people of the country who bought gas guzzlers … not the government. It’s the people of the country that bought homes with ZERO down and NO job … not the government. It’s the people of the country who will pay as little as possible for Chinese imports … not the government. It’s the people of the country that either have to smarten up or build a government to protect them … it’s obvious business isn’t there to protect the people of the country.

As for beating a dead horse … here’s a metaphor … would you blame an obese man, very sick, who ate fast food or would you blame the business selling it to him?

‘AxeHead’, I hope you’re not referring to me as a “greenhead”. What you can refer to me as, is a “responsiblehead”. If China doesn’t “give a **** about its own people”, I can say the same thing about the U.S. As for the problems you’ve mentioned, the U.S. is more simiar than you want to admit. And like I pointed out to ‘CJC’, don’t blame the Chinese for making money if there are people in the U.S. willing to buy.

The same free market you all want and espouse is a double-edged sword … you live by and you die by it … don’t blame the rest of the world for its faults. Bottom line, CAFE is right … late, but right.

The issue of increased prices to manufacture cars due to CAFE is much larger than Americans being crybabies, Impulsive and Veda. In the midst of a major economic downturn in the U.S. Automotive industry, continuing to make it harder for U.S. to compete with foreign makers in the domestic market won’t certainly help. Truth of the matter is, China is about to begin producing cars to sell in the U.S. shortly, as it is looking to become a superpower vastly beyond the U.S.’s strength. As it stands now, China has skirted all international protocols for environmental standards with their bogus “Developing Nation” status. They don’t give a rat’s ass about the environment and continue to manufacture dirt cheap products for “wonderful” retailers like Walmart.

As it currently stands, previous environmental measures in the U.S. not only hurt the U.S. but the environment. Since the 70s, a new refinery has not been made in the U.S. due to an Anti-U.S. fanatical green movement. Forcing the U.S. to import oil has created the situation we face with the Middle East and Venezeula. By depending on foreign oil where flaring and dumping are not illegal we promote more pollution, we just make sure its overseas. The drilling regulations for the U.S. are the most stringent in the world, we regulate all unused gas and oil to be pumped BACK into the wells, which is not only costly, but unheard of in most other nations. Just take a look at the Gulf of Mexico, the Texan side and the Mexican side. Mis-education has also contributed to exaggerated perception of large amounts of rigs to drill a large amount of area. Rigs do not drill straight down but rather, drill out up to 150 miles in ALL directions because of technologies in Variable Torque Drilling. However, legislators I doubt are even aware of this, but rather feed lies to the public because it’s easy to rally against Big Bad Business.

I do agree with you Impulsive that CAFE should have been focused on during the 90s. During a good economic time, automakers should have been pushed to progress. But now is not the time to be beating a dead horse.

I would not be surprised if a “standard” C7 got better than 30mpg when it ships. But It won’t hold up much unless they make a faster engine for the car as well.

That new super V8 engine gets 27 mpg, I believe….

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making a new super V8 engine ?

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making the Escalade ?

Isn’t Lutz in charge of the company making the fattest SUV’s on the planet ?

All high profit vehicles, but GM has to change radically to deal with gas at $3/gallon.

Plus GM has to radically change the way it treats customers and that customer’s complaints about the product they puchased.

If inflation continues at it’s current rate and the dollar continues to drop in value, we’re going to have a lot more to worry about than a $6000 increase in the cost of a new car. Economy cars will be well into the $20000s by 2020 any ways. If car companies want a fast fix for this problem, come out with a 50 state legal diesel and throw it into your small cars. Drop the size of the engines currently offered, develop diesels, and lower the weight of the vehicles.

Still better than having a screwed up goverment like in many third world countries that actually contributed actively to destroy the economy and makes its people lives miserable. Think about those slaves who can’t afford a $1000 motorcycle. All in all, people in US should stop whining when they still own a car. If they’re broke it’s their fault for leasing everything including 400K homes when they’re making 35K. Stop buying toys and save your damn salary!

2. AxeHead discussed government control and if you read two of my three posts that are relevant, you will find his point rebutted more appropriately in the second. My first post argued against the misguided views of those posting before me. But it also explained that government’s hand in directing towards a more fuel efficient future is necessary to avoid a potentially more painful situation. There was no “twisting” of anything.

3. People like you and me may have to bend a little to play a part in a more fuel efficient society. Again, I don’t care if prices double but I’ll bet there are plenty of people who are living borderline and probably couldn’t afford another $2 … that is where my argument for freedom of choice holds water. Many hard working peole won’t be able to afford what they want and may end up with your ‘90 Geo Metro because the manufacturers will be behind the curve. I’ll accept paying marginally more over the span of a decade for the greater good.

4. I ignore nothing … in fact, you and your ilk are ignoring the FACTS I present and responding with idiocy. Are trucks and SUVs selling FAR LESS than they used to? FACT. Are manufacturers hurting because of this? FACT. Are gas prices high enough to cause stress on a large number of society? FACT. Could the manufacturers have done something over the past 18 years to ameliorate the present situation? FACT. Could something be done to lower NOx levels so I don’t have to live under a toxic brew of smog during the spring, summer and fall? FACT.

Honestly, go back and read my posts SLOWLY. Then go back and read yours. You’ll realize you truly are blind, ignorant and foolish to believe what you claim to believe. Your cup holds no water.

You can keep ignoring reason for as long as you want to, but it won’t add validity to your arguments. You don’t know any more than I do about what will happen in the future. But I do know that you and your kind are prone to wild speculation. That ‘fear-mongering’ that was discussed earlier is a result of panicky individuals (like you) who are taken in by reactionary politics.

Now if you’ve got a minute I’d like to talk about the gun registry…