Need4,

That’s exactly the point. Diesel would turn the equation upside down, and would cut into big oil’s profits. As if they need more.

Rick_WagonWheel
From my Ren-Cen office overlooking the beautiful Detroit River

Point is Diesel is cheaper than gasoline, and we’re all wondering why is it now more expensive?

oil companies are trying to discourage the American consumer from demanding it.

And while I’m not expert on fuels, isn’t diesel cheaper to manufacture than regular gasoline? It doesn’t require the same amount of refining that gasoline does from oil…

I know why diesel is more expensive now. It’s because the oil companies saw that the U.S started catching on to the fuel mileage gains of diesel over regular gasoline, and doesn’t want the U.S. to be like Europe, where they use more diesel and utilize smaller and more fuel efficient vehicles. So in order to discourage the American consumer they are charging this false premium over gasoline, and will probably continue to do so.

The prices I gave in my example are the actual prices in northeastern U.S. Regular gas about $3.80, diesel about $4.70.

I have heard that in much of Canada, and especially western Canada, the diesel prices are actually cheaper than gas, as they should be. I would love to know the reason for that, or more correctly, the reason I’m paying such a premium for diesel in the states. Historically, diesel is almost always cheaper than gas, except for the last 3 years. It is cheaper to produce, so there is definitely a lot of B.S. and screwing going on.

People can laugh at the diesel owners all they want, but they’re getting screwed too whether they know it or not – just about everything you buy is transported and processed with diesel power. Truckers and farmers pass those higher diesel fuel prices right to you, the consumer.

And If I failed economics and math then I guess there would be 10x more diesels on the road in America.. But oh wait there aren’t…

Comment by Need4SSpeed, posted on August27 at 1:”

You’re right, they won’t see that. For the same reason people are selling their 2 year old SUV’s that they couldn’t afford in the first place for practically nothing now, and paying a PREMIUM over sticker for a Prius, Smart, or Fit. The reason: pure stupidity.

If they actually used their brains at all, they would realize this little switch from their SUV to hybrid or small car is costing them a fortune. Far more money than they will ever recover from gas savings even in 10 years!

YOU failed to account for the MUCH higher resale value of diesel powered vehicles versus gas. Sell a diesel vehicle in 4-5 years, and you will recoup 70-90% of the extra cost of the diesel option when new. In some cases, 100% of it. Don’t believe me? Look up the used blue book values of a used gasoline powered Jetta, and compare it to the value of a used diesel Jetta with the same mileage and age. The diesel will always fetch far more than the gas model. I used the Jetta as an example – this applies to ANY car or truck with a diesel option.

Your point has just been proven to be completely irrelevant. Next?

The price of gasoline for August 28th will be:

Toronto/GTA/London 129.3* Cents/Litre
UP 2.2 Cents

Ottawa 126.3 Cents/Lit
UP 2.2 Cents

The price of diesel for August 28th will be:

Toronto/GTA/London 127.2 Cents/Litre
UP 2.0 Cents

Ottawa 128.4 Cents/Litre
UP 2.0 Cents

glad you are working for Chevy but your initial post left out a lot of facts. You may not be a GM hater like most others here but you are still wrong in saying GM is betting on Volt and nothing else. The definition of putting all ones eggs in one basket is that you are focused on ONE solution. What evidence is there that GM is committed to one solution? None.

inline6, thank you for being respectful in your response. It is much appreciated.

Comment by Need4SSpeed, posted ”

Well then, it’s obvious both you and Maximum Bob failed elementary economics and math.

No the average American consumer won’t see that. Or they won’t figure that out. When they see the premium price of diesel over gasoline it has this psychological effect where most consumers aren’t going to say oh well if I factor over 5 years of owning this car i’m going to save X amount of $’s.

And If I failed economics and math then I guess there would be 10x more diesels on the road in America.. But oh wait there aren’t…

And while the Jetta TDI may show fuel cost savings over the life of the vehicle, it doesn’t show them for the average new vehicle ownership interval of about 3 years. The ‘09 Jetta TDI is also not 50-state compatible. It can’t be sold in California or the New England states.

The Bluetec Benzes are 50-state compatible, but their systems require the added weight and cost of urea tanks and catalysts. And the urea tanks need to be refilled every few thousand miles. If they aren’t, Benz has designed the vehicles not to run once they run out of urea. It’s also worth noting that Benz doesn’t sell a $15,000 car. Hell, they aren’t even offering it on their $35k C-Class. No, they’re recovering the costs by putting this system on…wait for it…their SUVs! And the E-Class. All of which go for $50k-plus.

And GM is selling few mild hybrids now because of supplier issues. There is simply no other company that is as financially and developmentally committed to so many fuel saving solutions.

It’s also worth noting that GM put the expensive 2-mode system in vehicles that carried a higher cost and profit margin so that the market would bear the added expense. And it works extremely well.

At the 7-Eleven near me, #26637 in fact, the price of regular gas is $3.63 as of yesterday. The price of diesel at the same place is $4.00. That’s only a 37¢ difference. 37¢ of $4.00 is less than 10% difference in price. 37¢ of $3.63 is just over 10%. So, how is that 20% more? That’s basic math, too.

So Z06’s gas figures were nearly $1.00 apart, and diesel is not that different in price (at least not where I live – in an urban environment where no farms exist and not many people own diesels). Now, let’s run Z06’s problem but with my numbers:

Gas engine Jetta: 29 MPG highway. Over 15,000 miles in a year, it will consume 517 gallons of gas at $3.63/gallon = $1,876.71 total fuel cost PER YEAR.

Diesel TDI Jetta: 41 MPG highway (rated – actual will probably be 45). Over 15,000 miles in a year, it will consume 365 gallons of diesel at $4.70/gallon = $1,460 total fuel cost PER YEAR.

That is $400 per year ($416.71 to be exact). Multiply that by 4, and you have $1,666.64 for the four years of using the Jetta. By 5, and you have $2,083.55.

Now, keep in mind that if you sell your Jett that is 4 or 5 years old, you are going to get money back. So, an $22,900 Jetta didn’t actually cost you $22,900, because you sold it for $11,000 five years later. Your Jetta actually cost you $11,000. That’s not bad at all.

Those prices are difficult to compare, but here’s what I did: I took the base price of the Jetta SEL as my original purchase price, and then I went to kbb.com and found the trade-in value of a “good” quality 2003 Jetta GL TDI sedan with 75,000 miles (15,000 per year) and no additional options. It actually came out to $11,125. I’m sure the original purchase price of the TDI was probably higher, but that’s why I went with “good” instead of “excellent”. The 2003 Jetta GL with 75,000 miles and no options and in EXCELLENT condition came out as $7,125. That’s a $4,000 difference! Wait a minute…

So, you spend $3,000 more for a diesel, and then you save $2,083.55 in gas, and then you sell it and get $4,000 back… -3000 + 2083.55 = -916.45 + 4000 = 3083.55.

WOAH! So you actually GAIN $3,083.55 by buying a Jetta TDI, driving it for 5 years at 15,000 miles per year, and selling it in “good” condition!

THAT’S why GM shouldn’t leave diesel out.

And I’m not a diesel worshipper. In fact, I though he was a lousy wrestler. Actually, I want an EV more than anything. Hopefully, my next car will be an EV, and it will be a daily driver only.

Basically, the point is, you save money

If you think he’s an idiot after reading that well thought out response that suggests you’re not that bright yourself.

Nice ramble but your original point is still garbage. You said that GM is puttin all it’s eggs in one basket when they are not. The fact that you feel their technologies are worthless or the vehicles that receive the technology are obsolete doesn’t mean that they should be discounted. The entire point of the two modes for the trucks is to make those vehicles viable in the era of $3.50/gal gas. I would bet that a Tahoe 2-mode sells faster than a gas only version. GM is still the ONLY manufacturer that has a hybrid solution (aside from Chrysler) for large vehicles. LArge trucks are not going away even if they are less popular than they used to be. It’s idiotic to claim that applying fuel saving tech to the thirstiest vehicles is a waste simply because sales volumes are down. GM aims to capture the majority of whatever market remains for large SUVs/pickups and that makes sense. That is like saying BMW shouldn’t try to dominate the high end performance car market because it’s a small volume market. You also fail to mention that the 2 mode system is being adapted to the Vue and likely other small CUVs in the future.

I would also like to know how you have determined that GM is betting its entire future on the Volt. This is more stupid talk from GM haters that has no basis. Please show us where GM said it is abandoning other fuel saving technologies and investments for the sake of the Volt. GM just announced it was spending $500M for the new Cruze including an investment in a new 1.4L engine that will likely get close to 40mpg on the highway. That is not an example of all their eggs in one basket. Gm is also aggressively phasing in 6 speed autos and direct injection engines. The lambda crossovers get better mileage than the Pilot in spite of being heavier. The Malibu gets 33mpg on the highway for 2009. A new Aveo is being launched in 2010. The facts totally contradict your stance that GM is doing nothing more than investing in the Volt.

“From complete obscurity to outselling the best-selling brands in the country in a matter of a year and a half. ”

The Prius is outselling Chevy and Ford and Honda already? did not know that. The Prius is outselling many other car models, but not mainstream brands get your facts straight. As with most GM haters you are short on facts but long on conjecture and lecturing.

The “eggs in one basket” I was referring to would be the Volt. I read the article, you obviously didn’t read my comment. Or perhaps you read it, but didn’t understand it. It’s simple really:
You said: “They’re doing mild hybrids, diesels, ethanol”.
I say: GM sells less mild hybrid vehicles than anybody with a hybrid vehicle in their lineup, yet they have MORE mild hybrids between all of their lineups than any other manufacturer, excluding Lexus. Lexus differs because they’ve taken the Accord hybrid approach of performance over efficiency. They serve different purposes and despite being hybrids are apples-to-oranges for this particular comparison. GM has no other diesels than its trucks (and perhaps an SUV) under its entire umbrella of manufacturers here in the states. And we all know how SUV and truck sales are going so your point there, too, is moot. Ethanol is great. IF it becomes mainstream. Again, nothing is absolutely certain except the advancement of electric vehicles and the de-emphasis of large displacement engines in most mainstream cars. I said “most”. Not “all”. But cellulosic ethanol from bacteria and trash is still a-ways away from pretty much any type of production capacity, which leaves crop-based ethanol, which drives the cost of many foods up. In addition to driving the cost of food up, the cost of other non-food products are driven up because of “market adjustment”, which essentially means as a manufacturer, I see somebody else making money off of you because they raised their prices and you’re willing to pay them, so I want in on the easy money too. Back to crop-based ethanol, to fill one SUV tank full of ethanol equates to an entire year’s supply of corn for one single person. To further illustrate my point, in order to supply JUST America’s need for ethanol, it’s estimated that growing and harvesting would take one-third of the world’s cultivated land. Multiply that by the demand in established markets like Asia and Europe, plus rapidly-growing markets in Russia, China, India and elsewhere…well, it doesn’t appear there’s much room for crop-based ethanol production to feed the entire world’s thirst. And I’m pretty sure they’re not going to stand for anybody else encroaching on their land to supply fuel for the U.S. alone without any benefit to their own supply. Cellulosic bacterial ethanol production can’t come fast enough. There’s no free lunch, hence, no guarantee that GM’s investment in that could be nothing more than poor foresight among GM’s product planning department, wasting resources like time and money on ethanol, that could have been used for other advanced technologies and research.

You said: “plug-in hybrids, 2-mode hybrids, range extenders, and their hydrogen program is in full swing.”
I say: GMs plug-in and hydrogen future, much like the rest of the automotive industry, are dependent upon components like lithium-ion technology becoming affordable. It’ll be at least another 10 years before that happens AND its a truly safe alternative to current nickel-based battery systems. I have no doubt their physical size will decrease rapidly, but if my laptop and cellphone still get as hot as they do from being on but not even being used, while charging, how can anyone want to put something like that the size of an entire backseat behind or underneath them? Theoretically, heat increases exponentially with size, which exponentially increases the amount of cooling needed to contain or dissipate that heat. That increases costs of cooling, which raises the price of the car to offset that plus other associated costs, and you’re still left with a rather unsafe, unstable main source of powering a large moving object. The Tesla’s battery alone costs $20,000. The GM Volt-specific battery is estimated at $15,000 currently, but current GM press information points toward the idea that their battery still doesn’t exist in full production or even near-production, or hell, even EARLY production mode yet, reliably. The associative costs of replacing that battery are much like that of replacing the battery in the Prius or Civic Hybrid, which have gone down, but are still $4,000-5,000. And that battery technology has been used hybrids for almost 10 years now (the Prius was sold in 1997 or 1998 in Japan, IIRC, and the Insight was sold here in 1999). If history is anything to go by, it is going to take quite some time for lithium-ion battery technology to come down in costs for both manufacturers, but more importantly for consumers.
GM’s two-mode hybrid system is fantastic, but again, they chose to put it in SUVs and trucks, neither of which are commodities in the market now, nor in the foreseeable future. I’m not saying they’ll never be, but right now, they’re sitting on the lots, not making GM any money. If things continue to head the way they were a month and a half ago, which is inevitable, I’m sorry to say, I’d expect the trend of American families downsizing from large vehicles to smaller vehicles, to continue. Small cars are always guaranteed a spot in the market, even if they don’t sell at a specific time. Large, oversized vehicles…not so much.
So while I give you credit for reading the article, you’re wrong about GM having eggs in more than one basket. Perhaps they do, but right now, they’re broken and runny. The only basket they’re currently focused on is the one with the Volt in it and if that egg breaks, GM will continue to struggle with consumers overall and against other manufacturers like Toyota, that benefit from GMs product and marketing mistakes. The easiest example in the world would be the Prius. From complete obscurity to outselling the best-selling brands in the country in a matter of a year and a half. Imagine what it’ll do for Toyota’s image if Lutz and GM fail to deliver on all their promises to the public about how the Volt will “change the automotive industry”. I’m in no way “hating”. I’m just being realistic and I feel that there are other things that many companies, including GM, could be doing to advance our transportation affordably for us and profitably for them.

Honda has announced one diesel car model as has Nissan. That is hardly an avalanche of diesel cars for the US market folks. The Europeans have just launched a few models that are 50 state compliant but you can bet their sales targets are modest.

Brass Monkey – The answer was written out for you douche. Hybrids are expensive. Diesels are expensive. So a hybrid diesel will probably be REALLY EXPENSIVE!

Z06ified – You fail to account for the typical length of time a person owns a vehicle, making you the idiot with ignorant math. 4-5 years? $1500 is hardly worth the extra cost of a diesel. When people keep purchasing $400 iPhones, WTF cares anyway!?!?!?

All of the turds on here spewing out your “the solution is so simple” crap really need to slurp down a dose of reality. Maybe putting down the PS3 controller long enough for an 8 hour shift somewhere could work in a bit of sense.

Comment by Need4SSpeed, posted ”

Well then, it’s obvious both you and Maximum Bob failed elementary economics and math.

Simple example:

2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI vs. gas model highway mileage:

Gas engine Jetta: 29 MPG highway. Over 15,000 miles in a year, it will consume 517 gallons of gas at $3.90/gallon = $2,017 total fuel cost per year.

Diesel TDI Jetta: 41 MPG highway (rated – actual will probably be 45). Over 15,000 miles in a year, it will consume 365 gallons of diesel at $4.70/gallon = $1,715 total fuel cost per year.

Do the math over the life of the vehicle, which for a diesel is well over 200k miles, and the fuel cost savings get very significant.

The problem with diesels in America is the average consumer is an idiot, and will never sit down and do the elementary math to figure out that diesel is a smart, economical choice.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

We are a work in progress. Thanks.

PS: Sent an email to your registered address. Did you see?

Mark

LLN has come a long way. I’m impressed.

If diesel fuel is a dollar over gasoline, you gain nothing. The increased efficiency of the diesel at a higher diesel fuel cost equals the gasoline option. (not to speak the costly modifications to meet future emissions like urea injection) Another interesting item is that their is no advantage to E85 either. The lower efficiency of ethenol even with the lower ethenol fuel price equals good ole gasoline. However, it does help the supply side of the equation to keep prices down.

Betting the farm on the Volt is a real ‘bold’ move, but that is what company turn-arounds stories are all about. Remember Ford betting on the flathead engine & the new model? Chrysler on the K car & minivan? History is being made today!

Your post was deleted because of your offensive screen name. Change it or risk continued deletions.

Ed

And the rest of you…IF YOU READ THE DAMNED REVIEW YOU’D SEE HE SAID THERE WOULD BE DIESELS IN THE US.

GM is NOT putting all its eggs in one basket. They’re doing mild hybrids, diesels, ethanol, plug-in hybrids, 2-mode hybrids, range extenders, and their hydrogen program is in full swing. Name me another company who has their eggs in more baskets.

You guys are blinded ignoramuses that won’t even read a damn article.