How is it that Lutz is always late to the party? He’s always acting like Mr. Bigshot with all the answers. Everybody else is moving in the necessary directions. Lutz is so smart he missed the writing on the wall? And he gets paid how much, and receives how many perks? Pathetic.

Bad call.

The only “pathetic” thing around here is that so many people in our “free country” are perfectly okay with the government telling a business what (perfectly legal items) it can and can’t sell and just how many of each it’s allowed to.

Lutz shouldn’t be chastised for trying to give the consumer what they want.

He isn’t cancelling the programs because no one wants them. Quite the contrary, lots of people do. He’s cancelling them because the government, via CAFE, is MAKING him. Because if he doesn’t cancel them, he’ll actually sell them (again, because people want them) and he’ll never meet his CAFE averages. So instead of making products that people actually want (*gasp* God forbid), GM instead has to go out and stimulate demand in another part of the market.

They can get around it. I mean just tack on their hybrid system, they are using in their SUVs and that should shore things up until they have better engines. What’s more why isn’t GM pushing turbo-4s like FORD is apparently trying to do? 2.4L turbo four making 260hp would be a great mid-level engine for these cars. Offer V8s for only a short time in large numbers, like FORD, then hedge back the production numbers to reflect demand and increase resale value. Hot V6s seem to be an option too. the 3800 series V6 was always nearly indestructible and could return very good F/econ with strong power… that and they could take serious boosting as well. 280hp 3800-series V6 in most of their cars got in the low to mid 30s mpg.

We all want muscle cars the way we recall them, but that ship has sailed in a storm of new fuel concerns and economic realities. I’ll miss big V8 power, but not much if a real usable alternative is fielded.

Stop getting cold feet and let’s have one last party worth going to!

Blakkarr, as good as that would sound for GM to push their turbo I4’s like what Dodge has with their 285hp 2.4L Turbo World Engine, or with Ford pushing for their Ecoboost twin turbo V6’s, while that technology might pass in the Impala. Having a small liter engine no matter how much power it puts out would receive much criticism I think for being in a GTO. People want big liter, high output, V8’s with lots of horsepower even if it has horrible gas mileage in cars like that. While I think offering maybe a turbo V6 like the 3.6l Turbo being offered in the Saab 9-3 Turbo X as a base engine like you said, and offer the V8 in to top model, while yes it is a good idea too, I just don’t think it would be accepted very highly by most of the public.

CAFE is the new scapegoat, scrap our new V8 uhhh… CAFE. Cant compete with the Japanese or Europeans uhhh… CAFE. Cant get the Volt out in time uhhh… CAFE? Cant get the damn Camaro out into dealerships uhhh… CAFE. F*** CAFE, GET THINGS DONE MAN, NO MORE EXCUSES GM!

Someone please enlighten me. What does RWD have to do with fuel economy? All that comes immediately to mind is the added driveshaft weight. So what? An extra 100lbs? Or is a transaxle and constant velocity joint combination that much lighter than a transmission with a north/south driveshaft and a rear differential.

CAFE aside, one has to believe this is simply more about dollars and the cost to undo over 2 decades of FWD dominance in GM’s fleet. Or most anybody’s fleet for that matter. Still, I’m probably not the only one who would love to see the reemergence of inexpensive small and midsize RWD cars from GM, but wouldn’t it have been cool to have seen what they could have done with the likes of the Vega or Monza had they taken 3 decades to refine it.

SS4LIFE,

Like I said, build the V8s but only to the numbers that reflect actual demand. Not every last GTO or Impala sold would absolutely have to have a big V8. Face it some little old ladies and “casual cruisers” would like to drive the car but could live without the V8.

Of course, “purists” will want the big eight, but not everyone. I am not advocating ditching V8s altogether. Just be more realistic about it.

The Impala SS would have a V8 and would be to only way to get one (except the anticipated police version).

A Pontiac G8 GTO would also be practically required to have a V8, while the normal G8 (coupe I’m guessing) would be available with the V6 as the top engine.

We get our Zeta’s and GM can still find ways of meeting CAFE without ditching the V8. I might be of a mind that would not look well on a Turbo-Four Impala or G8. Then again, I’m not a diehard muscle car fan. I’m a performance and sports car fan. I, frankly, don’t care where the power comes from as long as I have plenty of it.

Tuners regularly exact huge output numbers from small engines. Knowing this I am not that put off by four cylinder engines in larger cars as long as they perform as desired by the customer. Besides with that smaller engine you’ll hardly notice the loss or any power. The car will weigh 200-400 pounds less easily. You would actually get being performance, starting, going, turning, and stopping.

This does not mean I want to forget about V8s.

A while ago, LLN posted that article on Cam-less engine technology. I am all for it for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is that we could have V8s, V10s,and even V12s that can return not only serious performance, but also small engine F/econ. Not having to work valves not being used, leaving idle cylinders open to avoid needless, power-robbing, compression strokes, being lighter weigh as well, having multiple valve timing settings for different engine uses and conditions, are major selling points for me on this and a ray of hope for the V8 and American motoring tradition.

I just don’t want the other Zetas hung up without a fight.

They NEED a new Impala SOON!

well that sucks. GL GM.

Stay tuned, folks! Next stop: Hillaryville!

There really wont be a market in the future for V8s in dailydrivers.

Mr. Lutz is really starting to become increasingly confusing. This article leads to some questions:

1) Why would GM cancel development of a Zeta based GTO, but still consider bringing over a rebadged Holden Ute to the U.S. (I’m assuming it’s still being considered since I haven’t seen any info to the contrary)? It seems to me like the Ute would only basically appeal to enthusiasts and do nothing to define Pontiac’s image, where a GTO coupe (and convertible) would attract a larger audience and assist in defining Pontiac’s affordable performance “car” brand image.
2) Like Blakkar stated above, why isn’t GM being more aggressive in developing/utilizing alternative powertrains to use in these vehicles? Ford seems to be really aggressive about developing/promoting their EcoBoost technology. Why can’t GM do the same thing? I think people will warm up to diesels and alternative powertrain setups as they become more common and proven in the U.S. market. As Blakkar said, V8 engines could still be offered in limited edition, upper trim levels.
3) I also agree with johnnycanuck; how much heavier is a rear wheel drive layout and how much does that affect fuel economy? I can see utilizing front wheel drive layouts for your mainstream, mass market brands and products (most Chevrolet and Saturn products, excluding Sky, Camaro, Corvette, and truck based products). I thought Pontiac was going to be positioned as an affordable performance niche “car” division. I think it needs rear wheel drive performance sedans, coupes, and convertibles (and maybe hatchbacks and wagons) to give it a focused, well defined image and purpose in GM’s brand hierarchy. Chevy and Saturn are the brands where smaller, front wheel drive, energy efficient vehicles need to be offered and aggressively promoted.

It seems like GM is freaking out a little too much about the upcoming CAFE standards. Instead of freaking out, they need to look into ways of making their products work within these upcoming requirements while maintaining each brand’s integrity and image. I believe they have the knowledge and talent to make it work. I don’t believe limiting rear wheel drive products is the answer; there is room for both front and rear wheel drive products in GM’s lineups if they properly execute their plans.

I apologize to Blakkarr for mispelling your name in the above post. I will get it right in the future.

I almost feel as if GM is really comfortable in the role of a victim.

Apart from the fact that a change from front to rear wheel drive alone changes the fuel economy only by a negligible amount, why not build a rear wheel drive car at least for now and rely on your R & D department to come up with something worth wile in the next 12 years, in other words 2 car generations away.

And plus: The Impala is such a f***ing legend, few car names have such a buzz to it. Everybody loves the models from the sixties, and they are still famous today.

It is a crime that GM has turned it into a bad japanese ripoff and soiled its name in that way, as with dozens of other models.

No matter what, the Impala simply has to be a sexy rear wheel drive V8 power sedan again, anything else would be criminal.

Mazdaman you got it all right.

Good. The less GM cars on the roads in the future, the BETTER!!! God, I hate GM. These are nasty made cars/trucks.

El Aleman: I agree completely about what happened to Impala. The engineering abortion that was the W-Body ruined many classic nameplates (Impala, Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, etc) by turning them into underpowered FWD blandmobiles with lousy powertrains.

I’m happy to say there are some intelligent people here on this thread. In fact, seemingly more intelligent than this monkey named Lutz.

For johnnycanuck : RWD is less effecient than FWD because there is more frictional loss of HP due to the change in power direction from the drive shaft to the rear axle [ 90 degrees ].
FWD loses less as the drive path is straight.

Slowly but surely americans are going more for the minimum amount of car as opposed to the maximum. ( Like choosing a cobalt over an impala ) This seems like a reasonable trend to me. I couldn’t see the need to drive around in something like a dodge charger, so much car for one person, or a whole family for that matter. These designs ( large cars ) are become outdated quickly as smaller cars are making the most out of their size. If this means that GM is going to come out with some nicely sized rear drive cars with efficient engines, than so be it.

I got it, I got it … just create a 4 banger in V arrangement and put two of them in the Impala and you have a V4+4=8. Shut down one of them on the highway and you might just get the coveted 35 mpg dictated by econonazis. Hey Bob - can I have a job in your R&D?

Gonzo is a total douchebag. Nice job making that up.

As Blakkarr said so well,
.
“We all want muscle cars the way we recall them, but that ship has sailed in a storm of new fuel concerns and economic realities. I’ll miss big V8 power, but not much if a real usable alternative is fielded. Stop getting cold feet and let’s have one last party worth going to!”
.
As much as disdain Lutz, he is, in own roundabout way (and probably to move product) is stating the exact same thing as Blakkarr—this is it for the romp-stomping V8 everyman days, and if you ever wanted an affordable V8 of any remaining substance, then buy it now! It’s an American icon that’s passed its heyday.

Yeap, once again Blakkarr nailed it. The solution to all this is indeed technology.

“Under the new CAFE law, automakers must have a fleet average of 35 mpg by 2020.”

Or what?

frylock350: I’ll say adapt or else. The cost of swiss watches went up by on average 20% over the last 4 years. I don’t hear anyone complaining because those who are in that hobby usually already have the dough. American auto buyers have been spoiled for the longest time. Lowest tax on brand new vehicles, cheap gas, low cost of maintenance, more choices than anywhere else in the world and so on and on… yet you guys are still bitching about it. Really, the only reason why I would want to go back living in US is because I can have a really nice supercars collection. Over here a brand new Audi TT 2.0T is US$ 100K. But since I can’t race them on public streets, I’d have to postpone that plan for now.

My point: look elsewhere and see why others have to settle for a $2500 car to have a decent transportation for their family. V8’s are unnecessary and being unnecessary they are nothing more than luxuries.

Pffft! And for 1 measily f*cking mile per gallon they scrap the entire RWD program?!? WTF is up with that? I’m SURE if they used some lightweight materials here and there it would more than cover that stupid 1 MPG loss. This is pathetic, Bob Lutz!

Did anyone ever complained about driving characteristics of Audi A6 or A8? Volvo s80? They are front wheel drive. Benz S class and BMW 7 with diesel motors can meet CAFE requirements for 2020 today. Nobody ever complained about performance of those motors either. What the fuss? Lutz is a typical corporate bureaucrat who is overpaid for doing nothing.

We’re upset because our choices are being taken away by people who can afford an S-class, etc. I’m not talking about supercars either. I’m talking about everyday transportation. I’m talking about $20k trucks. Americans like pickup trucks. We buy well over a million of them a year. And if you look outside the city you’ll begin to understand why.

I live in Chicago now, but I used to live in Upper Michigan which is a very snowy region. Imagine a 7 inch snow that isn’t plowed for 2 weeks. Salt is never laid, just sand. A 4×4 pickup is simply the best way to navigate that. AWD is not an adequate replacement for a 4×4 with ground clearance. Would you rather hit a deer in a Silverado or an Audi TT? How about a Camry or a Suburban? If you live in such regions you will invariably hit some of these critters and no amount of skilled driving can prevent it. I’ve hit deer in my old Silverado and the damage wasn’t crippling to the vehicle and the deer was in no danger of coming up my hood and impacting the windshield. Being able to drive away from that is HUGE as we are talking miles of 2-lane road with nobody else on it. Spotty cellular service at best with massive deadzones of no service. Police presense is sparse. Hitting a deer @60mph will total most modern cars and due to all that lovely aero design with sloping hoods and such, that deer is coming right for the winshield. Top all that off with icy road conditions in the winter. A pickup truck is simply the safest and most intelligent way to deal with all of that.

Then there’s the fact that not everybody has this nice chic urban lifestyle. Ever try to drive on a 2-rut road in an Audi anything? Ever try to pull a boat with a Camry? Ever try to haul an ATV in the bed of a Colorado? Where do i put a 6ft fishing pole in a Malibu? How about tossing a freshly killed deer in the back of your cute Euro-hatch. These are all things full-size pickups excel at doing. This is a way of life for a large portion of the American population. In case you were thinking of suggesting that a V6 pickup would suffice, try passing a tractor-trailor on a 2-lane while pulling a boat. The instant torque of a pushrod V8 is very useful here. With the truck + trailer you are talking about moving around 10,000lbs around an 18 wheeler in a matter of seconds. A V6 will not suffice for that.

The only saving grace could be the 4.5L Diesel. The thought of 500ft-lbs (that’s more than an LS7 makes kids!) gets me all giddy inside. With 310hp and all that torque a 4.5L Silverado should be good for 0-60 in ~7.5s I figure. The 2500 Ram Mega Cab with the Cummins I drove was crazy fast for its size. It still doesn’t have the sound of a V8, but at least I wouldn’t be sacrificing performance or reliability. I just hope it doesn’t lose passing power (a hard pull from 50-80) over the gasoline V8s. I could always keep a V8 sports car in the garage for occasional cruising.

I do actually understand not using an RWD Impala. Impala is a high volume car and will be purchased by plenty of people who just don’t care about RWD or V8 power. They’ll buy it because its a big Chevy. People who just don’t care would be better served by a more efficient FWD platform. I say update/modernize the W-body. Its already proven to be reliable, its efficient and its inexpensive. Zeta isn’t dead either. It lives on in the G8 which as a low volume car is entirely sustainable in CAFE, especially since its a rebadge so not much design efforts went into it. Camaro, while hot and exciting, is selling in a market that isn’t that big, so again not a huge CAFE factor. If they keep selling a V8 G8, they’re both cutting V8 volume by not offering it on Impala and keeping RWD V8 customers happy with the G8. So I can have my muscle car and everyone who isn’t into that can have their economical car.

frylock350: Ok buddy, if it’s indeed out of necessity due to your living conditions then yea more choices would be nice. Or at least have them available at layman prices. I agree that a nice solution would be diesel. The 4×4 Ford Rangers we’re using to transport mine explosives through rough rocky mountain roads are sufficient with their 2.5T diesel engines. The only problem comes when they decide to cheap out and mix the gas with cooking oil or whatever oil they have at the moment.

Quoth the Raven: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frylock, great post!

GM is wayy over-reacting. Jesus, the standard goes into effect in 2020. Those Zeta cars would have been out of production for years by then. Why not produce them in the meantime? Are you just going to throw all the money you’ve already spent away? I also don’t buy that RWD platforms have to be any less fuel efficient than an FWD. Back in the 70’s that was true when everything (axles, diffs, shaft) were made of iron, but I don’t thing these days that’s necessarily true. I have a BMW325 that is much more efficient than a 2000 Golf I had. Plus, it’s faster, handles better, roomier, etc….

Another reason, why I’m voting for paul in the primaries, Hopefully abolishing the CAFE will be the solution.

@Veda. Compact/Midsize pickups, while certainly capable, really fall short when you push them. My buddy drives a 06 Tacoma V6 and it just can’t do the work my Chevy can. Plus he can’t get an ATV into his bed. Plus its a narrow vehicle and doesn’t seat three across the back as well as a crew cab full-size does. We tow a 22′ fishing boat and his truck is really stressed to pass on the two-lanes when loaded with the boat, some gear in the bed and 5 guys in the cab. My Chevy is able to pull far harder at those speeds with the same load. For me strong passing power is a safety issue. Plus at the end of the day his Tacoma only returns 1-2 more mpg than my V8 Chevy does on 87 octane and sometimes not even that much. People who don’t use pickups for what they are often don’t realize the limitations of midsizes. They’re great for getting offroad, and great for hauling motorcross, mountain bikes, kayaks, etc but they really can’t handle being laden with lots of passengers and stuff hooked up to the rear. Maybe the 5.3L Colorado will change that, but somehow I doubt it. And you can’t replace the roominess of a crew cab full-size either.

If GM opts for a 4.5L V8 Diesel with 310hp/500ft-lbs I’ll snap that up in a hurry. Performance shouldn’t suffer vs the 5.3L V8 and should actually be better. Plus the ability to burn biodiesel would be awesome. I hope GM can address the NVH issues that diesels in general have though. Their pushrod V8s are amazingly quiet for what they are. While I hate the sound of a diesel I can certainly appreciate a motor that has only 5 less hp than my 5.3L with ~150 more ft-lbs.

Oh and cooking oil? Now that’s a short sighted solution. Cheap out on fuel and risk damage to the engine, which is quite pricey.

I think just removing the V8s as standard equipment on cars would be good. Often people buy upper trim packages for the goodies, not the V8. Just like how Malibu is offered in LTZ trim with an ecotec. You’ll see less buyers go for the more powerful engine. Pontiac G8 is a great place to still provide a V8 to customers who want it but keep it out of the hands of those who don’t really care. It won’t be a volume car and will be sought only by those who want it for what it is. I’m all for reducing the number of inefficient motors out there for those who just have them because that’s what the car came with, but I don’t want to take them from those who specifically targeted them.

CAFE is good, CAFE is right … save in the good times to live through the bad times. But I don’t expect the monkeys to get it.

The Impala should stay front wheel anyway, it’s their best seller so why would they change it? I can’t imagine anyone selling a volume large rear wheel drive in this day and age anyway. If they want to bring out large RWD sedans and coupes at some point, make it really nice and call it Caprice. Or make it smaller and sportier, sedan and coupe, and call it Chevelle. Best model name they ever had and they don’t use it..

GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!! GM vehicles SUCK!!

Screw GM and Lutz, I’ll be hanging on to my 300/SRT8 for a looooooooong time.

Caddies put Volvos to shame!
Caddies put Volvos to shame!
Caddies put Volvos to shame!
Caddies put Volvos to shame!
Caddies put Volvos to shame!

I got my Grand Marquis…it can squeeze high 20’s MPG on the highway.

I’ve counted as many good Volvo’s in the junkyard as Caddies….they both suck.

nice try, Implusive….. Volvo isnt even in same class with Caddy!! Volvo competes with Saab, Acura, Audi and the likes.
Caddy is much upscale-type of company and fights with BMW, Mercedes, and others.

Get Real, you got facts to back up for that statement u made about the junkyard?? Volvo’s been known to last forever.

I’m not a die hard fan of Volvo. Im just leasing one right now. Well, only 5 more months left of my 2006. I love cars too much. I get bored easily. Im on my 8th car in 10 years. Always new and leased.

I just simply hate GM cuz they produce nasty, nasty looking cars and trucks, with an exception of the new Mabliu (its a start). Also, Toyota too. Just pure plain nasty vanilla and always all tan inside. They are producing too many cars, just to beat GM and forgetting about the quality!!
I’m open to all other car companies. I respect those brands. Just not lame GM and Toyota!

‘S-60′, if you can repeat “GM vehicles suck!”, then I can repeat “Caddies put Volvos to shame!” In fact, my claim is FACT, classmates or not.

I still don’t get all these last minute platform killings due to 2020 CAFE requirements. That’s 12 years away from now, which is an entire platform lifespan, sometimes TWO platforms. Very few models are in production for 12 years with no change to the platform. The Accord and Camry get overhauled roughly every 5 years. You don’t see Toyota or Honda killing any new product platforms for 2020 CAFE standards right now, do you?

So leave what’s in the product pipeline alone, and focus on 35 MPG for CAFE standards for the NEXT generation platforms.

Boo CAFE!

Didn’t want another GTO anyway, but how can you call something FWD an Impala?

SigmaHyperion: good points at 631p on the 20th

Blakkarr: good points about the V8s.

El Aleman: You’re right about the raping of the name’s heritage.

S-60: you mean fewer, dumbass.

frylock350: “Ever try to pull a boat with a Camry? Ever try to haul an ATV in the bed of a Colorado? Where do i put a 6ft fishing pole in a Malibu? How about tossing a freshly killed deer in the back of your cute Euro-hatch.”

Those things are Sins, and you should not be doing those things. If your lifestyle requires something bigger than a Prius, you need a new lifestyle.

The General should keep the Malibu as the volume car, and make the Impala something special.

Z06ified” “I still don’t get all these last-minute platform killings due to 2020 CAFE requirements. You don’t see Toyota or Honda killing any new product platforms for 2020 CAFE standards right now, do you?”

I don’t understand that either, but maybe they’re trying to get sympathy and say that’s how long it’ll take to develop new stuff.