So people are snapping up G8s before they’re gone and ignoring ugly happy face Mazdas. Maybe the public is smarter than I usually give them credit for after all?

Looks like the only thing smiling at Mazda is their stupid-looking cars! Hahah!

Go Ford! Yahoo!

GM is probably having going out of business sales, and seeing Honda in the toilet is no surprise – they were too high last year. When was the last time Acura had an up month? 2004?

Honda and Toyota’s results are pathetic. If you cannot do better than this when two of your competiors are teetering on the edge of bankruptcy you should be ashamed. What are they going to do in 6 months when GM and Chrysler no longer have the threat of liquidation hanging over their heads?

BMW is surpassing Lexus as the best selling luxury brand in the US. Lexus sales have been in the toilet for 2 years or so.

An increase in Town Car and Grand Marquis sales?

…………………..wait, what?

These bricks are leading the way to a comeback?

And MRN- Ford may not be associated with Mazda quite like it recently was, but Mazda is responsible for influencing and contributing technology to many of Ford’s more successful endeavors. So if Ford had the same attitude as you, and magically forgot all they picked up from Mazda, they’d be making much less interesting products right now…

Some of these sales numbers are partially due to the heavy discounts – especially the Town Car, Grand Marquee and Saab 9-7x.

But good going Ford, look at you with you kicking both Toyota and Honda’s behind.

Some of these numbers are scarey – how can you sell only 783 units Saab? I know some Chevy dealerships who used to sell more than that in a month! Mini selling 4,610 is actually pretty good when you consider that’s about half of Acura’s sales, which has a much bigger lineup than just 2 models.

Toyota is offering record discounts. Same with Nissan and Hyundai. There was a time when you could dismiss gains by the domestics by blaming it on an incentive advantage- those days are over. Toyota is offering low financing and higher than average rebates on many models. They increased incentives to counter poor sales in April. It didnt work.

Fusion outsold Altima again. Altima sales were down a whopping 46%. MAlibu was down 10%.

going to check out my G8 GT to be later on today

I agree with sj79 what is going to happen in 6 months when GM is out of courts and has all the new and up and coming cars on their lots?

sj79 and CADDY- When GM is out of court and (hopefully) finished with all their financial drama, and back on the road to business as usual, don’t expect the discounts and incentives you’re seeing now. GM put tons of their taxpayer grab toward creating deals to get cars off dealer lots. When they’re responsible for their own dollar, you won’t see those kinds of deals as much for a while until they start making some more money.

Some people realize this, and if they’re loyal buyers, they know they have to buy now, which is contributing to sales significantly, it;s an oppurtunity. The only thing that concerns me about the loyalist rush theory is the bigger drop in Caddilac sales, as Ford’s Town Car goes up ( a car sold mostly to older and more brand loyal customers).

Toyota and Honda, I think, are waiting until the American companies are back off life support, working more on their own dollar, and are no longer able to offer these deals to you (which are on your dime, more or less. Gotta love irony, huh?). Then they’ll attack with an increase in their own incentives, hopefully some smart improvements to current models, and get back on the up. They’re essentially weathering their own storm, as their competition is helped out of theirs.

Toyota is stale and the results speak for themselves. How can a company with a sterling repuation for quality and efficiency be doing this poorly when its main competitor is on life support? GM is only going to get stronger going forward so Toyota needs to beat them while they are down. 6 months from now its going to be a whole new ballgame. SRX, Lacrosse, CTS wagon, Terrain and Nox this year. Cruze, CTS coupe and Volt in 2010. ANd thats just GM- we all know Ford has a great lineup now with more on the way.

The Fusion came within 3k units of the vaunted Accord- and this is only its second month on the market. Keep in mind the Accord wont be redesigned for another 3 years.

shane:

Your theory is absurd. One reason is that Ford’s sales are outperforming Honda’s and Toyota’s. In case you missed it- Ford is not taking government money. Honda and Toyota have no explanation for their poor sales so I’m glad you do. They most certainly are not intentionally suffering 40% declines to “wait out the market”. That is just nonsense.

Buick only down 17%? Enclave was UP 40%. The excellent new LaCrosse is just getting out there. Look for good sales news there for the rest of the year.

Chevy only down 24%. GMC down 22%.

In looking at Cadillac cars were down 45% while trucks down 26%.

Overall GM trucks were down 21% while cars down 38%. With the Toyota and Honda data it looks like May was a tuck month.

Car manufacturers don’t have the resources to do something with a reaction time that can be described as “beating them while they’re down”.

Creating a new car, or improving an existing model, especially for a company as meticulous and careful as Honda or Toyota, takes a good chunk of time. They can’t just whip out some new car from their back pocket. GM and Ford have a huge advantage into tapping their European market brands and giving America something “new”. Even if it’s not a rebadge, there are things around that exist that they can call new.

Toyota and Honda don’t have that advantage, unless they want to start peddling Kei cars in America, so they can’t react instantly, and will have to fight through it as the American companies are put through life support by us.

If they were responsible for their debt to the American taxpayer, then you’d be looking at a whole different story though.

Shane – my comment regarding Mazdas was about their stupid smile – not about the tech. I like Mazdas, historically, but between that stupid grin and the softness in their new cars I think they are off track and so I am happy to see their numbers down. Wipe off the grin and build in the tight sportiness that made the brand attractive and the numbers will go back up.

MRN- Agreed, on the grille. But if you like past Mazdas, keep an eye on their possible future breaking of their promise. A couple articles back I saw they were putting interest into EV’s. I hope not.

Mazda is a great brand with a really good history. They need to go back to their heritage and come forward with some good products that can fight in the segments they have a good foothold in.

They need to step up their sportiness while keeping prices down, go strong against Subaru and Mitsubishi, and drop the pickup that nobody cares about if they’re never going to give it any love.

The smile is holding them back, I agree. Hopefully their numbers hurting will motivate them.

Ford is gonna have a strong comeback as the worlds best selling auto leader

Shane:

I will repeat this once again: Ford did not take money from the government. Did you get that part? Ford has beat Toyota the last two months and has generally been posting smaller declines than Toyota for quite some time now. How do you explain that? Ford is not gaining share based on taxpayer loans. You cannot excuse or dismiss their performance. Ford has some very nice, fuel efficient product out now with more on the way.

IN addition, your suggestion that forcing the other American automakers to pay back their debts would hurt them in the sale race is baseless. Monthy sales figures are based on product and incentives- nothing more. While the government could hurt Chrysler and GM’s balance sheets by demanding full repayment they would not affect sales in a negative manner. As GM has proved, you can record great monthly sales and still lose money each quarter.

sj79- I NEVER said that Ford took money from the Government. I was pretty much refrerring to GM 100% of the time in the above posts, because I have huge respect for Ford for NOT taking my money, I think they’re on top as far as the American brands go. Ford is going to keep doing a comeback the way it should be done. But as far as the baselessness of the payback statement, if they were to pay back the money in full, they couldn’t support themselves without needing further support, and would have to liquidate. Last I checked selling zero is quite a difference.

Ford is doing business right. I see them as competition for Toyota, I’d leave GM out of it entirely because they’re recieving so much support. As far as true competition, yes, Toyota has work to do to stay with Ford, but I don’t really respect any improvement in GM that they can’t make without help from the United States’ wallet.

lLINCOLN-up That’s right, read it and weep, Japan. Drive a Ford, drink a Coke, Smoke a Lucky Strike.

IT’S ALL ABOUT AMERICA….Just follow the Doctor’s orders

How did Ford compare to last year? Yes it was a great month for them, but it was for Chevy too, and they still saw a drop.

Go G8! Maybe it’ll be spared somehow, with some badge.

1115, toyota is grrreat by the way.

I hope the G8 becomes the new Impala SS it would be a great move by GM

-Sarge

When Toyota’s numbers come in you will see that they had the worst month out of the top five.

“Edmunds expects GM sales to drop 36.9 percent, Ford Motor Co (F.N) 28.5 percent, Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T) 40.6 percent, Honda Motor Co Ltd (7267.T) 39.3 percent and Nissan Motor Co Ltd (7201.T) 35.1 percent.”

I am surprised because Toyota offered huge incentives in May.

AFSOCSARGE- 1000% agreed. Screw a front wheel drive SS.

Gimme a G8 with a couple bowtie badges and call it an SS.

I see GM was down 30% while Ford 26%.

I did a quick spreadsheet analysis and if you only look at the remaining 4 GM brands, “new” GM was down 24%. And I think we can assume some of those “bad GM” buyers will move to the new GM brands in the future.

shane train

We may get our wish GM reported that they will discontinue the Impala SS last week it maybe a sign of the G8 move which would make sense. The Malibu would compete with the Ford Fusion While the Impala on the G8 Platform would Compete with the Chrysler 300/Charger

-Sarge

There will be no RWD Impala. Not there was a need for it. Impala was always selling well. Perhaps the best car from domestic manufacturers.

shane train

Chevrolet Drops Impala SS
http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2009/05/chevrolet-drops-impala-ss.html

We will see what is in The Cards hopefully the G8

-Sarge

Carstuff:
You did a spreadsheet analysis?
Dam man you are on your game.

I would imagine the strange increase in Town Car/Grandma Marquis sales is largely due to a “get ‘em while you can” mentality. People, or more accurately, livery companies, know that the days are numbered for the big Panthers and they’re hoarding them….

A redux/echo…

Sometimes you have to go through the pain in order to experience the joy
This too shall pass
Know what I’m sayin’
It’s all good
Chillax;-)

DB9;-))

PS. What’s that… Should I get One of my babies a sister before they’re all gone:’-(( Hmmm,,, One’s been offered…;-)

PS to the PS. If it wasn’t for Ford, Mazda would be SOL, they were dying in the nineties… What platforms does Mazda employ? Don’t bring up the 6 canard… The 3 is a great car.. the front clip… well… who wants to drive a ‘toon?:-))

PS. Cubed. The fleet queen, aka Impala, needs to go…. what… 1988 – don’t be ridiculous lol:-))

GM would be really “Silly and would be “Sleeping On The Job” to let a vehicle with a 68.3 sales increase go!

not one of GM’s “core” units, had pretty miserable sales – except for the soon-to-be-dropped G8, which saw an astounding 68.3 percent increase to 3,081 vehicles

It would be a smart move it gets the same Fuel Mileage as the Current Impala and a Hell of a better car than the Impala !

-Sarge

There’s a Masarati Dealer next to where I live, my question – how can they make it selling maybe 10 units last month?

Should the G8 become the Chevy Camaro SS Sedan?

Yeah, you read that right, Chevrolet Camaro SS Sedan. If there can be a BMW M3 sedan why not a four-door Camaro?

The Camaro and the G8 already share a platform and although their engines aren’t exactly the same they’re pretty close. Leave the Impala for family duty and keep the rebadged G8 what it should be — a full fledged sport sedan.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/g8-impala-rear.jpg

I think this is Right On Target !

Chevy would have new Life and Excitement !

-Sarge

” but its Legacy sedan increased sales 53 percent despite a redesign on the horizon thanks to healthy incentives”

-Yeah, and people saw what the redesign looked like. Eww.

Camaro Sedan… I nearly lost my lunch. And I **HATE** Chevy. I’ll never forgive Dodge for the current Charger being a sedan. The Challenger should be the Charger with the 1971 styling, which I think is a MUCH better looking car than the Challenger was. The current “Charger” should have just been Magnum with both 4-door and wagon versions.

Yes A4 Toyota and Honda still are great and much more reliable and still have higher resale then the D3 counterparts.
Honda and Toyota arent giving away their cars like GM and Ford are nor do they have govt support like GM. Honda and Toyota can still get more for their cars due to their superior build quality and excellent records for reliability GM and Ford dont have that option and have to deeply discount their piles bc they know they wont sell one unless they do
So “by the way” your pathetic attempt at sarcasm is still baseless .

For the Canadians that troll left lane news Ford of Canada had a 7.1 percent decline in May 09 compared to May 08. I don’t know how that others did yet.

Payton Byrd

What do you think of this Charger:

http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/dodge/charger-1999.html

While I fully agree with you I gave way to the losing market of the 2 Door car in America. I do not know why it happen but a 2 Door does not sell well other than the Sport Coupe arena. I really do not see another Mid Size 2 Door Car ever in America which is very sad.

All the Chargers from 1966-1974 were All Beautiful the 1975 Charge/Cordoba was the Beginning of the end for the 2 Door Charger.

-Sarge

General Motors of Canada Ltd. fell 12.4
Chrysler Canada Inc.’s sales fell 50
Toyota Canada Inc. down 25.2 %
Honda Canada Inc. down 17 per cent from May, 2008.
Mercedes-Benz Canada Inc. reported 2,344 sales, up 6.9 per cent over May, 2008.

Percentage drops and gains don’t really mean anything, especially when you are comparing a 10M SAAR to a 16M SAAR last year. Right now I care about Polk data more than anything else, but it lags 1 month behind.

actually 1115, it says right in the article that Toyota is giving away the highest incentives they ever have, and it looks to me like Ford is kicking the sh!t out of them. You’re screwed buddy.

Here’s another fun fact from TWO YEARS AGO

“A report released by RDA Group today shows 2007 model year Ford, Lincoln, and Mercury cars made during the first quarter of the year are nearly equal in initial quality to those made by Toyota, and better than those made by Nissan. Ford vehicles received a score of 1456 problems per 1000 vehicles, while Toyota scored 1453 and Nissan received a 1457.”

This was before Alan even had any major influence, and now Ford’s quality is even better, and it has been proven that Toyota’s is faltering. 8=====================================D thats for you 1115.

Oh look 2009 numbers too!

“Ford surpasses Honda in initial quality and remains in a statistical tie at the top with Toyota.
Ford’s initial vehicle quality improved 5 percent over last year.
Ford customer satisfaction continues to improve and is equal to Toyota and Honda.”

Ford, down 25.5 percent to 137,167
Toyota, down 39 percent to 135,661

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz
i could do this all day

Damn, Suzuki and Mitsubishi should just go halfers on one burial plot and save some money.

The entire car companies have reported their sales numbers and on the surface GM and Ford were not down as much May to May as Toyota, Honda and other foreign makes. I am amazed that no one has pointed out that May was a record month for Toyota and Honda last year. With gas at 4.00 plus a gallon Civics and Corollas were flying off the lot. If the FIT had been on the ground it would have sold out!!! If I remember this was the month in 2008 that Civic out sold the Ford F150 and that was a big story.

People have short memories. Ford and GM were in a terrible decline in May of 2008 so to be down 24% this year in May is horrific. Are we going to be ecstatic in September or October when they have an increase?

Honda was up over 50% May 2008 vs 2007 and this was primarily due to panic on the consumer’s part. In my opinion 2009 should be compared to 2007. Do those numbers.

Bunch of uninformed short memories!!

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-boost-incentives-to-stop-sales-slide.html

adnoh, the bottom line is that Ford sold close to 2,000 more units than Toyota, thats just cold hard facts, percentages or not.

A4, really, this is the internet. There’s no room for the facts.

A4 Yes don’t confuse us with the Truth and Facts

We love to Believe in Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin !

-Sarge

A4 I work for Honda (the profitable car company) not Toyota. And in this country Ford with all of thier fleet sales and truck sales should out sell Toyota. The point was that there is nothing good about Ford’s numbers. Honda on the other hand will continue to be profitable.

RDA Group is NOT a car group its a Marketing research group just like JD Powers and Consumer Reports
Once again your attempts are pathetic my friend Your argument is still baseless
And naturally GM and Ford arte going to sell more if they have more brands
And why dont you look at some fun facts from today yesterday or yesteryear thatshow the resale valuies of J2 and D3
Thank you once again
Keep trying

Three things are at play here betweenToyota, Honda, and the Big 3 sales :

1. The percieved ‘quality gap’ has been greatly reduced. This has been the primary reason why most Americans have historically aviod Big 3 cars. In particular, most of the younger car buyers haven’t experienced the poorly built U.S. cars from the 1970’s & 1980’s

2. The recent downward pressure on prices have brought the average purchase price closer to their true market value. Big 3 MSRPs for years were artificially inflated, and buyers were taking a huge hit on initial depreciation. Both factors kept people away. This issue has now been greatly reduced.

3. With the overall economy slowing, there is simply a smaller pool of buyers. The sales decrease will have to come from somewhere; with the Big 3 now competitive on quality and price, Honda and Toyota have nowhere to go but down.

The PROVEN quality gap has not been reduced but there is much marketing (especially by FOMOCO) to trick buyers into thinking that they are on par with J2 even though there is no such evidence.
The primary reason why most Americans avoid Big 3 cars is bc they are not as reliable and have benn making and selling poorly built cars from the 1970’s & 1980’s and today (check the GM recalls and the FOrd f 150 and mustang recalls and of course Chrysler) The Big 3 are now competitive on price, but there is no evidence that they are on par with Honda and Toyota’s quality.

The drop in gas prices this year has definiely hurt sales of cars like the Corolla and Prius
And special incentives like Hyundai Assurance (with similar programs at GM) have also hit a sweet spot in the market
Camry had a strong month, and is within shouting distance of #1 vehicle sold in US this year
New Ford and Dodge trucks hurt Tundra sales
Nothing “pathetic” going on, as SJ likes to assert
DrFill

1115, exactly what data would you believe on quality? Seem like every data point brought up is poo pooed by you. You seem not to believe anyone but yourself.

CS you know what I believe and no I am not repeating it

Thanks to GE fleet pushing the Ford Fusion they had a great month. Too bad it’s becoming such a fleet vehicle. I guess Ford looks at it as a throw away car. Borrowed platform & assy. in Mexico I figure Ford is looking at it as a make a buck vehicle that will be sold in volumes at fleet discounts. To hell with the “real” customer. Doesn’t matter where it is engineered or built as long as it’s passed off as American. Looks like their approach to Hybrids is the same way. No “real” development in the U.S., each unit awards Toyota with royalties. Borrow it (Battery “Sanyo”, electric motor “Toshiba”, internal combustion engine “Mazda”….. all Japan) slap it together and put you nameplate on it. This isn’t engineering…… this isn’t an American company. Years ago the WHO sang about not getting fooled again….. The American people have had enough….. we “Won’t Get Fooled Again”.

Hey tripleonefive

The quality findings that Ford is touting is bogus….. Ford funded the study and it was performed locally by a group in MI. The study results actually showed Ford in 3rd place behind both Toyota and Honda. Ford at first did not manipulate the results they just stated that they were on par with Honda and Toyota. Then, Ford marketing released the commercials where they stated that they could not be beaten in quality by their J2 rivals. I interpret Fords results like the results of the college ACT: Toyota received a 30, Honda a 29 and Ford a 25. To get some colleges the 25 would be thrown out and the 30 and 29 would be considered for acceptance. Nice try Ford. If I had the 29 or 30 on the ACT I sure as hell wouldn’t consider the 25 equal to my results. Ford basically rounded up and stated that they were on par. Sorry Ford….. there is a difference.

I would exactly worry about Toyota and Honda being outsold by Ford or GM and especially Chrysler. For years Detroit has given away cars with incentives and residuals have always been below the imports. Honda and Toyota are laughing all the way to the bank….bottom line profit per vehicle sold and ownership experience. As far as the Big Three are concerned….Ford is the only company on the right track given the imports competition. Chrysler please bring back the K-Car/Reliant…what a hit! GM please bring back Cadillac Cimarron I need a laugh! I am so happy I am an owner of both loser companies….

I love reading all the banter back and forth……its so refreshing to see the Toyota penis suckers (TRIPLEONEFIVE) sweat. It really just makes me smile. Listen, we all know Toyota builds good cars, its flat out the truth. But I am ecstatic to see that American companies like Ford who DID NOT TAKE MY MONEY TO STAY AFLOAT are doing so well. So cheers to you Ford!!!

I know you cant disprove my points so these serve as a false victory but the bottom line is Im still correct

in the words of 1115: “CS you know what I believe and no I am not repeating it”.

I think Sarge has it figured out!!: “…don’t confuse us with the Truth and Facts
We love to Believe in Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin !
-Sarge”

On another note, I think Toyondas are good cars but a bit too expensive, and I believe their sales are down because right now there are so few buyers willing to spend a nickel more than they have to to get a decent car.

Regardless of whose study you believe or don’t believe, the Fusion is just one example of a good, competitive car. Even if you don’t think it is “the best”, it is a solid value, and reliable. That is what people want right now. The fact that Ford hasn’t asked for govt money also helps them win over some buyers.

I think Ford (and Hyundai) stand to gain the most from the current market reality as they have both shown tremendous gains in vehicle quality in recent years, and they offer solid value to their buyers. Toyota (and Honda to a lesser extent) will feel some pain, but they will manage just fine in the long run.

Wo! New Fusion sales are at about 19,800 and the Accord is at 20,800 – the Fusion is at a record and the Accord is down from about 41,000 last year. Seems people are recognizing that the Accord is a POS and the Fusion is an awesome car and deal – it really is! Civics are in the crapper too, and …. even The Fit Is No-go because it is down. Honda just can’t catch a break these days between their assy soccer mom mobiles and the fact that their gussied up crApura brand hasn’t had an up month in a half a decade.

PG Since you love America so much Im sure you respect what is used to determine value in courts Look up what is used in US courts of law to decide value and look at auto publications not marketing research companies
There is no credible evidence that the Fusion is a reliable car and certainly no evidence that it is on par with the Accord or Camry which have PROVEN reliability and high resale
Joke all you want talk about Easter Bunnys tooth fairies but there is no factual evidence to back up what you or CS say about cars from Ford or GM

And where is your “court of law” evidence to prove the Fusion ISN’T reliable? Hmmm. Let’s see what you come up with. I am genuinely interested.
How does respecting Ford and Hyundai for their improvements make me a lover of America? Last I checked Hyundai wasn’t American. I actually am not a fan of Hyundai, but I still believe they will grow their market share substantially in the next 5 years and I respect some of the things they are doing.

I am open minded enough to like some domestic vehicles and some imports which means I am not blindly loyal to cars only from America, Japan, or even from just one automaker. Being in the automotive industry, I am exposed to all vehicles and I appreciate their differences, and their strengths.

Some of my favorite vehicles are Honda products, but I also acknowledge that they have some flaws – have you talked to anyone who has shelled out $4000 plus to fix the tranny in their Accord/Odyssey/TL or other similar product lately? I have. Toyondas are great, but they are not immune to problems. You can stick your fingers in your ears and say “La, La, La – can’t hear you” all you want, but it won’t change anything.

Yes, there have been some awful domestic cars manufactured. There have also been some awful imports. Do the D3 deserve constant bashing without some acknowledgement that they have done a few things right over the years and are putting some excellent products on the market now? Nope. Reality is that there is very little “black and white” in the automotive industry – it just isn’t that simple. There is a lot of grey, and that grey includes the realities that the D3 can make some cars that are decent, and that Toyota and Honda screw up once in a while. That’s life.

@1115: If unbiased data showed that an American car rivaled Toyota’s quality, and all the monthly car magazines backed that up, would you be open to buying it?

FYI: I’ve only ever purchased one domestic (a Ford). So far, it has proven as reliable as any of my previous Honda’s. Wouldn’t have a problem purchasing from either company in the future.

*You what I have discovered their is allot unsubstituted Believing going on here which is very humorous. Has anyone ever made the attempt to “Substrate” their clams ?*

Should Read:
You have here what I have discovered is allot of unsubstantiated Believing going on here which is very humorous. Has anyone ever made the attempt to “Substantiate” their clams ?

Sorry I did this late at night

-Sarge

1115, very sad. Again you will not answer a pointed question to you. Some nebulous answer like ” you know what I believe so I will not answer”.

No, I do not know what you believe. I can only presume what I said is correct.

You do not believe any data but your own opinion and all data is false.

Gentlemen gentlemen gentlem, 1115 dismisses American cars because his mommy told him to.

It’s that simple.

Carstuff/Mayer_ray_nagin

I researched the Ford Fusion and from Automotive Journalist All Agree the Fusion has High Quality and High Value, What is Amazing I have the reports to “Substantiate What I State” Why others make claims and just because “They Believe” them that will make them true !?

“Don’t Confuse Us With The Truth and Facts We love to Believe in Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin !”
-Sarge”

1115 is a broken record, and she’s a fool. Personally, I’m glad that maybe people are waking up to the FACT that American cars are as good as or better then their J2 competitors, and buying ‘American’ is better for this country.

BTW, I was thinking of 1115 the other day in real life. I had to go around a disabled Honda… Made me giggle!

The current cars from Ford have not stood the test of time. The new Fusion has about another 7 trouble free years to go and the last Mustang was recalled. The NEW Gm products have all been recalled as well so they are the same as the past POS GMs .I dont even have to talk about Chrysler
Bottom line is they are still unreliable and not equal to the quality of a J2 car

Injuraiv how are you? Im not sure that you should be thinking about me bc Im not one of those guys but thanks anyway. How is the begging for change thing treating you ?
Do you have a sign that says “will sell Pontiac for change?”

1115 is still a moron. He is trying to justify Toyota’s terrible performance by lying about incentives, Toyota is offering RECORD incentives and its not working. There is cash back on every Toyota and most offer low financing deals as well. Honda is offering cut rate leases to lure buyers and its not working. Why? Too many stale, overpriced designs and too many people are cross shopping with Hyundai, Ford and GM. Its that simple.

Also, TOYOTA DID NOT HAVE A RECORD MONTH IN MAY 2008!. Someone made that fallacious statement and its a crock. Toyota’s sales were down 8% iin May 2008. There is no excuse for their performance.

1115 provides no basis for his claims of superior import quality and he knows that quality is about the same across the board. Cars rarely have major quality problems in 2009. Even if that werent the case new cars are covered by WARRANTIES. Perhaps 1115 has heard of these but they protect the buyer for 3-4 years from paying for repairs. Buying a dull, overpriced Japanese product due to “superior” quality when all new cars have warranites makes no sense at all. On top of that you get a better warranty with a Detroit vehicle which suggests they stand behind their product.

The resale value of Toyotas and Nissans are being gutted by incentives and sales to rental agencies. They are doing exactly what Detroit did for years and it will lower resale over time. If there is no advantage in resale value and no advantage in reliability there is no reason left to buy Japanese unless its a truly exceptional product like the 370Z.

@1115: If unbiased data showed that an American car rivaled Toyota’s quality, and all the monthly car magazines backed that up, would you be open to buying it?

BTW: Toyota issued a couple of recalls this year, too.

Mini #s are amazing,

They outsold the entire lineups of Mitsu, Suzuki, Hummer and Saab. And sold more then half as many as Acura, Audi, Infinitti, Saturn, Buick, Cadillac and Volvo. Amazing!

“I would exactly worry about Toyota and Honda being outsold by Ford or GM and especially Chrysler. For years Detroit has given away cars with incentives and residuals have always been below the imports. ”

Do you read or watch TV? Incentives for import brands are at all time highs. All Toyota does these days is advertise the latest deals. They are giving cash back and low financing and cut rate subsidized leases. Toyota is acheiving these results WITH high incentives. Imagine what would happen if they stopped putting cash on the hood? GM’s rebates aren’t even much higher than Toyotas. GM has been focusing on low interest loans.

“Nothing “pathetic” going on, as SJ likes to assert”

Dr.Fill:

Give me some of what you are smoking. POsting a 40% decline when your top competitor is being trashed in the media is not impressive. What exactly is positive about Toyota’s results? Gas prices are an excuse. Toyota sells many vehicles that are not hybrids so the suggestion that the only reason they are down 40% is because of the sluggish demand for hybrids is ridiculous. Hybrids were only 14k out of 152k total sales for Toyota. Why aren’t their trucks, minivans, luxury cars and SUVS selling? The cheap gas should help them in the same way high prices boosted the Prius last year. Also, the camry did not have a strong month. Scion is a failure too- only 5k units between 3 models. Considering Americans are looking for low prices and good mileage Scion should be doing well right now.

I have never said Toyota and Honda are immune to problems. Please show me where I allegedly said that.
My argument (as always) is referring to D3 cars vs. J2 cars and not Hyundai thus the “broken record” reference of Inj. He would know about that bc he is probably performing on the streets now with a Bob Seger vinyl playing in the record player

The only thing that I have to say about Hyundai is that they are a great company. I would buy a Hyundai over a D3 product

triple stupid:

Do you have ANY reasons to recommend Japanese cars beyond reliability? New cars have warranties so you are taking NO FINANCIAL RISK with regards to reliability within the warranty period. JD Power, CR and every other source claims that domestic quality is increasing and that cars are far less problematic than even 10 years ago. Reliability isn’t a major concern for most buyers which is why you see so many defections from Honda and Toyota. People do not care about reliability because they know most cars are reliable and thus they are checking out Ford, VW, Hyundai, etc. Once Honda and Toyota are unable to convince people that they have a monopoly on reliability (that is happening now) they wont have much left to peddle.

Keep on making excuses and telling yourself everything is fine. Honda may be OK in the long run but Toyota is slowly being chopped down to size by aggressive competitors and its great. Mark my words– 2008 will be the peak for Toyota in terms of US marketshare, worldwide sales and profits. One would think the $7.7B loss would have been a clue to someone as dense as you are that there is a problem at Toyota. They have already said they will post a bigger yearly loss in 2010. Now THAT is moving us forward.

Your arguments about the J2 vs D3 are stupid. I know who you are talking about, but your logic is lacking. Toyota is doing everything GM and Ford have done including allowing quality to decline, over investing in trucks, relying on fleet sales, offering discounts that deflate resale value, engaging in arrogance that leads to medicore products, lagging when it comes to technology such as direct injection, turbos and 6 speeds, etc. Toyota has been arrogant for a long time but the sales numbers are finalyl reflecting that arrogance. Their product is lackluster which is why oyu keep talking about resale and quality. You have to beat those issues to death because you can’t talk about product. Toyota agrees which is why their ads focus on vague claims such as “Toyota quality saves you money” instead of talking about the merits of the product. I have driven a 2008 Corolla and 2009 xB recently (both fleet cars of course) and they are thoroughly average in terms of build quality, material quality and the driving experience. Hyundai designs better smalll car interiors than Toyota.

Do you have ANY reasons to recommend Japanese cars beyond reliability?

New cars have warranties so you are taking NO FINANCIAL RISK with regards to reliability within the warranty period.

Keep on making excuses and telling yourself everything is fine.

Honda may be OK in the long run.
Toyota is slowly being chopped down to size by aggressive competitors and its great.

Yeah, this is why I stopped arguing w/ 1115 a looooong time ago…

I don’t need anything else but the fact and its fact that Honda and Toyota are more reliable dependable cars and they have resale to show it. I am of the opinion that they look better as well but unlike you I like to stick to the important issues

New cars have warranties so you are taking NO FINANCIAL RISK with regards to reliability within the warranty period.

Well that’s good for Ford and Gm bc they still have unreliable piles

The companies mentioned are marketing research companies and their data is flawed. A Buick that doesn’t sell as many or have as many models can’t be fairly compared to Lexus which does more volume and has more gadgets in their vehicles

Really where are these so called defectors? The Malibu doesn’t convert import buyers at any higher than 5% last time I checked. Also they don’t mention which models are being traded It could be an 81 Camry for an 09 Malibu

Don’t lump VW and Hyundai in with the conversation unreliable Ford and GM. People are buying D3 cars bc they are inexpensive. They will regret it when they break down and get recalled.

They will be fine. Once people realize that they bought a cheap American pile to save a buck and it breaks down and get recalled they won’t buy American anymore

I don’t have to make excuses I have the resale numbers on my side. You are coming up with every which way to bury Toyota and I’m sorry to say Toyota will be fine

I know Honda will. Honda has a better more reliable product than D3 and people know it

Aggressive, yes. reliable and dependable, no. Toyota still has the best hybrid technology out there and they have almost every Lexus model offered as a hybrid. Competition is great but Mark my words– Toyota and Honda will be fine and GM will go down. Ford will be ok and who knows with Chrysler.

sj79:
I love the “now that is moving us forward” line
Good close.

TO MUSH TO READ…..

HAD TO PUT MY, “2 CENTS” ,IN……

posted by: tripleonefive
…….“I don’t need anything else but the fact”

Dude, we all know what you need but it’s going to be tough for you because before you’ll get your one chance in life at it you’re going to have to save up a lot more pennies from mowing your parent’s lawn and then find a hooker willing to stoop down low enough to consider you.

Triple on stupid is incapable of responding with any intelligence or maturilty. He is in fantasy land. It must be hard work defending mediocre product 24/7. I do admire anyone who can be so passionate about Toyota products. I know he is insane if he says Toyota products LOOK better than the competition. Even avid Toyota fans know the cars are either ugly or forgettable. Toyota is a company that used to make looms and decided to start making cars. They have idea how to give a car any soul or personality. THey merely crunch numbers and churn out dull, reliably vehicles. There are no “car guys” at Toyotas, just engineers and beancounters who have been trained in Kaizen.

“Your arguments about the J2 vs. D3 are stupid.”

—Now that is not nice lol and just untrue. If my arguments were stupid you would be able to disprove them. Yourself along with Injuraiv, Caddy V and the other village people haven’t offered any solid proof to show that D3 cars are equally as reliable to the J2

“I know who you are talking about, but your logic is lacking. Toyota is doing everything GM and Ford have done including allowing quality to decline”

—No evidence that Toyota quality is decline that is merely conjecture

”Over investing in trucks, relying on fleet sales, offering discounts that deflate resale value, engaging in arrogance that leads to mediocre products, lagging when it comes to technology such as direct injection, turbo’s and 6 speeds, etc.”

—-As I stated before Toyota is the leader in hybrid technology and the things you mention have nothing to do with quality and reliability. When GM makes a reliable turbo of their own, the CTS with Direct injection runs for years without a recall and the reliability is high then maybe I’ll care. Lexus has an 8 speed transmission on 2 cars by the way

“Toyota has been arrogant for a long time but the sales numbers are finally reflecting that arrogance.”
—- I guess you are either insecure or just hate a Toyota for producing reliable vehicles that GM and Ford cant compare to. J2 has been beating American in quality and reliability for years and looks like they will for years to come.

”Their product is lackluster which is why you keep talking about resale and quality. You have to beat those issues to death because you can’t talk about product”.

—–I talk about quality and resale bc those are proven. I don’t want to talk which car is the fastest with some dolts online. I argue fact and you it upsets you that no matter what you post it hasn’t derailed the facts that I stand by when I first posted on this board. Changing the subject won’t help you and I could care less about your opinion. I just want the facts ma’am

“Toyota agrees which is why their ads focus on vague claims such as “Toyota quality saves you money” instead of talking about the merits of the product.”

—-The Toyota commercials that I have seen just simply state the proven facts that they have very reliable cars with high resale values. Chevy commercials just attack Toyota and Honda and offer facts that really aren’t that impressive. I’m supposed to like a Malibu over an accord bc its 4 cylinder model get 1 more mpg in the city than the Accord? The next time Firestorm is on TV just take a look at the fine print on the bottom of the screen. It’s ridiculous. Ford just holds their own studies and claims whatever they want but either way they are liars. I just saw one and the commercial claimed that their quality can’t be beat by Honda or Toyota yet provided no evidence at all to back the claim up. The Fusion Hybrid can’t even get 38 mpg and they claim it’s getting 41. It an act of desperation bc they know they have an inferior product. None of the Fords have stood the test of time and the “new “Gm’s were recalled so they are unreliable just like their “old” cars.

“I have driven a 2008 Corolla and 2009 xB recently (both fleet cars of course) and they are thoroughly average in terms of build quality, material quality and the driving experience.”

—–Once again it’s just a bias one sided opinion. I don’t know where you were able to rent a Corolla but please let me know bc I would love to rent one All I get to rent are American cars I have driven the Saturn Aura the Pontiac G6 and the new Malibu and they were below average in all of the aspects you mentioned. The Corolla is a compact car so I’m guessing you wanted a performance oriented or luxury car. If that is the case then you should rent one.

“Hyundai designs better small car interiors than Toyota. “
——Once again that is your opinion. It’s off topic and the bottom line is Toyota and Honda build better vehicles than GM Ford and Chrysler (I may just stop mentioning the latter)

LOL I’m watching the GM bankruptcy commercial Ha Ha Ha

“Triple on stupid is incapable of responding with any intelligence or maturilty.”
First off it’s Maturity, secondly Triple on stupid …mature

“He is in fantasy land. It must be hard work defending mediocre product 24/7. I do admire anyone who can be so passionate about Toyota products.”
—I’m not passionate about Toyota or Honda. I simply like that they have reliable quality products that have a high resale value

I know he is insane if he says Toyota products LOOK better than the competition. Even avid Toyota fans know the cars are either ugly or forgettable.
–Once again trying to change the subject. Since I have already proven you wrong I guess I can give you some opinion. It is of my opinion that the Toyota and Honda designs are more appealing that the GM Ford designs Im waiting for you to dwell on this to deflect that you haven’t proven me wrong on my resale reliability facts

”Toyota is a company that used to make looms and decided to start making cars. They have idea how to give a car any soul or personality. They merely crunch numbers and churn out dull, reliably vehicles. There are no “car guys” at Toyotas, just engineers and beancounters who have been trained in Kaizen.”

– Yea, beancounters and reliably vehicles. You can be a “car guy” while stuck on the side of the road with your Ford or GM

By the way ,
The reason that Injuraiv doesn’t respond is bc he was kicked out of his local library for using the free internet too much. He lost his job bc his Pontiac dealership is closing. Since he is mad with me someone ask him how his garbage can fire is going Inj?? He is another person who is biased towards American vehicles bc he lived in America. It all works out since he is now lives on the streets and will get to see much of America

TripleDumbass, I am a third generation owner of the dealership, and I am not out of a job – not by a long shot. I grew up in and around cars, and have forgotten more about cars than you will ever know. Blather on all you want, most of the rest of the readers here see you for what you are, and I don’t need to address your silly little pointless and pathetic posts.

Who knows where it goes from here.
LLN: “The good
Toyota division beat out Chevrolet after last month’s surprising slip to third place.” sounds like cheerleading.

The Ford Fusion is a very good car. Just marginally shy of the MalCord.

“Honda saw a small drop in Odyssey … sales. I think everybody will see larger drops in minivan sales.

The Fit will rebound this summer.

Lincoln is a star. Don’t know why anyone wants those vehicles, but they do.

johnnycanuck: “So people are snapping up G8s before they’re gone …” Yep.

mayer_ray_nagin: Many Mazdas are nice-looking.

sj79: BMW is the best selling luxury brand in the US. Your statement is analagous to Tom Brady passing Clete Casper as the NFL’s best quarterback.

But you’re dead-on with There was a time when you could dismiss gains by the domestics by blaming it on an incentive advantage- those days are over.” Fleet sales are shrinking, too.

“How can a company with a sterling repuation for quality and efficiency be doing this poorly when its main competitor is on life support?” There’s reputation, then, there’s reality.

KarLoveBoy88: “Ford is gonna have a strong comeback as the worlds best selling auto leader.” ol’ Hank would be proud!

sj79: Everybody with his eyes open know how good some of the new Fords are.

AFSOCSARGE: “I hope the G8 becomes the new Impala SS.” Maybe. As long as any “Impala” is V8 and RWD.

Borat, the best car from a domestic manufacturer is the CTS.

AFSOCSARGE: “Should the G8 become the Chevy Camaro SS Sedan?” No.

tripleonefive: “Yes A4 Toyota and Honda still are great and much more reliable and still have higher resale then the D3 counterparts.” WHAT?

A4: Ford’s vehicles are almost as good as GM’s, and better that Honda’s with the exception of the Accord/TL.

A4: No one can be better than honda, yet not as good as toyota.

johnnycanuck: “Damn, Suzuki and Mitsubishi should just go halfers on one burial plot and save some money.” gOOD ONE.

“A4, really, this is the internet. There’s no room for the facts.” Spoken like a man who lives in the real world!

tripleonefive: Resale values are thoretical at best. I’ll not bother bringing up the Spreen Honda ad again, and I’m reading the U-T today.

global_lightning: Straight GOSPEL at 732p on the 2nd.

Three things are at play here betweenToyota, Honda, and the Big 3 sales :
1. The percieved ‘quality gap’ has been greatly reduced. This has been the primary reason why most Americans have historically aviod Big 3 cars. In particular, most of the younger car buyers haven’t experienced the poorly built U.S. cars from the 1970’s & 1980’s
2. The recent downward pressure on prices have brought the average purchase price closer to their true market value. Big 3 MSRPs for years were artificially inflated, and buyers were taking a huge hit on initial depreciation. Both factors kept people away. This issue has now been greatly reduced.
3. With the overall economy slowing, there is simply a smaller pool of buyers. The sales decrease will have to come from somewhere; with the Big 3 now competitive on quality and price, Honda and Toyota have nowhere to go but down.

tripleonefive: “The PROVEN quality gap has not been reduced but there is much marketing (especially by FOMOCO) to trick buyers into thinking that they are on par with J2 even though there is no such evidence.” WHAT?

“There is no evidence that they are on par with Honda and Toyota’s quality.” Uh, JUST DRIVE THE CARS!

DrFill: I’m pretty Sure the Camry was the No. 1 seller.
“New Ford and Dodge trucks hurt Tundra sales” That’s true. The new guy always has an advantage to some extent.

carstuff: “1115, exactly what data would you believe on quality?” Good question.

hey bailout: subject-verb agreement!

MasterYoda2005: I think you’re mischaracterized 1115.

“We all know Toyota builds good cars, its flat out the truth.” Why did my little sister just buy a VW? Because her ‘05 Camry is dead. Yes. Two-thousand five. Dead.

mayer_ray_nagin: the accord/TL is not a POS, and is marginally better than the Fusion.

The next good civic will be the first.

tripleonefive: What is used to determine value in the wallets? What someone is willing to pay for a car. I’ve gotta get another Spreen Honda ad.

parts guy: “I actually am not a fan of Hyundai, but I still believe they will grow their market share substantially in the next 5 years and I respect some of the things they are doing.” What! objectivity rears its ugly head.

“Some of my favorite vehicles are Honda products.” Mine, too, though I have a Kawasaki.

“You can stick your fingers in your ears and say ‘La, La, La – can’t hear you’ all you want, but it won’t change anything.” yep.

“Yes, there have been some awful domestic cars manufactured. There have also been some awful imports.” So true!

DetroitWatcher: “@1115: If unbiased data showed that an American car rivaled Toyota’s quality, and all the monthly car magazines backed that up, would you be open to buying it?”

You know the answer to that!

mayer_ray_nagin: “Gentlemen gentlemen gentlem, 1115 dismisses American cars because his mommy told him to.” I have a couple of theories on that subject.

injunraiv: I owned a disabled Honda Starting it was a gamble, shutting it off was a damn gamble, and the rear wiper … Wouldn’t work during a Midwestern winter, but come a 100-degree summer day and it’s like watching a Peter North movie.

tripleonefive: “Bottom line is they are still unreliable and not equal to the quality of a J2 car.” WHAT? By the way, If unbiased data showed that an American car rivaled Toyota’s quality, and all the monthly car magazines backed that up, would you be open to buying it?

06/03, 10:32 AMPOSTED BY:
sj79: “too many people are cross-shopping with Hyundai.” if these are smart people, that’s a battle Toyota loses every time.

“Buying a dull, overpriced Japanese product due to ’superior’ quality when all new cars have warranites makes no sense at all.” True dat!

The 370z (I hate that name) is indeed a truly exceptional product .

sj79: Toyota doesn’t sell luxury cars in the USA.

tripleonefive
:I don’t need anything else but the fact and its fact that Honda and Toyota are more reliable dependable cars and they have resale to show it.” WHAT? Fact: That Honda has four tires. Fact: Ten people bought hondas. Fact: A Honda XOXO has a 3-liter, 200 hp engine. NON–FACT: Honda and Toyota are more reliable dependable cars.
Theoretical resale value is vaguely if at all related to quality.

A Buick can’t be fairly compared to a rebadged Toyota.

If anyone drove a Camry fro, ‘81 to the present, would he not buy another Toyota?

People are buying Ford and GM cars because times are hard and they’re looking for value.

“Honda has a better more reliable product than D3 and people know it.” Again, WHAT?

06/03, 10:23 PMPOSTED BY:
tripleonefive: “No evidence that Toyota quality is decline (sic).” Just wake up and gou out into the world.

“Toyota is the leader in hybrid technology,” I agree there.

“(Toyota’s faux-luxury division) has an 8 speed transmission on 2 cars by the way. An 8-speed auto. To what end? To trick dumbass americans into thinking thery’re buying a BMW/Benz/Audi equivalent?

“J2 has been beating American in quality and reliability for years and looks like they will for years to come.” Again, WHAT?

“–I talk about quality and resale bc those are proven. Again, WHAT?

“Chevy commercials just attack Toyota and Honda and offer facts that really aren’t that impressive.” It’s you’re choice to be impressed — or not.

tripleonefive: Last GM I saw on the side of the road (I-5) was a tow truck …. hauling off a Toyota.

Wow, I can’t help but think how long that post had to take!!!

“Triple Dumb Ass”
- Creative (looks up the word sarcasm)

“I am a third generation owner of the dealership, and I am not out of a job – not by a long shot. I grew up in and around cars, and have forgotten more about cars than you will ever know.”
—-You are a 3rd generation loser if you have been selling Gm’s let alone Pontiacs. Is Pontiac the “niche” brand? It seems that they are the non existent brand now. I’m sure you grew up around cars, American ones and you think that American’s should buy American even though the Japanese have a better, more reliable product with comparable higher resale values.
Now stop eating out of the garbage and go to a shelter. Make a new sign that reads “Will sell “niche” brand car for food.

“Blather on all you want, most of the rest of the readers here see you for what you are, and I don’t need to address your silly little pointless and pathetic posts.”
—If by “blather” you mean state the facts about Honda and Toyota having a superior product to D3 then yes I will continue to blather. As long as people like yourself continue to lie and exaggerate the quality claims of Ford and GM products with no proof I will continue to post.
If my posts were so silly and pointless then someone on this board would be able to prove me wrong. This has not happened and wont until the D3 (or 2) cars show they are up to par with the J2 cars. This will and can’t happen in the near future.

Jack Jim Turkey- Stop trying to sum up everyone’s posts. If you have proof that Ford and GM make cars on par with Toyota and Honda please show us and stop making false claims. Hey maybe you can get Injuraiv a job cleaning up **** with you.

FORDS THE BEST **** THE REST