“I am a third generation owner of the dealership, and I am not out of a job – not by a long shot. I grew up in and around cars, and have forgotten more about cars than you will ever know.”
—-You are a 3rd generation loser if you have been selling Gm’s let alone Pontiacs. Is Pontiac the “niche” brand? It seems that they are the non existent brand now. I’m sure you grew up around cars, American ones and you think that American’s should buy American even though the Japanese have a better, more reliable product with comparable higher resale values.
Now stop eating out of the garbage and go to a shelter. Make a new sign that reads “Will sell “niche” brand car for food.

“Blather on all you want, most of the rest of the readers here see you for what you are, and I don’t need to address your silly little pointless and pathetic posts.”
—If by “blather” you mean state the facts about Honda and Toyota having a superior product to D3 then yes I will continue to blather. As long as people like yourself continue to lie and exaggerate the quality claims of Ford and GM products with no proof I will continue to post.
If my posts were so silly and pointless then someone on this board would be able to prove me wrong. This has not happened and wont until the D3 (or 2) cars show they are up to par with the J2 cars. This will and can’t happen in the near future.

Jack Jim Turkey- Stop trying to sum up everyone’s posts. If you have proof that Ford and GM make cars on par with Toyota and Honda please show us and stop making false claims. Hey maybe you can get Injuraiv a job cleaning up **** with you.

The Ford Fusion is a very good car. Just marginally shy of the MalCord.

“Honda saw a small drop in Odyssey … sales. I think everybody will see larger drops in minivan sales.

The Fit will rebound this summer.

Lincoln is a star. Don’t know why anyone wants those vehicles, but they do.

johnnycanuck: “So people are snapping up G8s before they’re gone …” Yep.

mayer_ray_nagin: Many Mazdas are nice-looking.

sj79: BMW is the best selling luxury brand in the US. Your statement is analagous to Tom Brady passing Clete Casper as the NFL’s best quarterback.

But you’re dead-on with There was a time when you could dismiss gains by the domestics by blaming it on an incentive advantage- those days are over.” Fleet sales are shrinking, too.

“How can a company with a sterling repuation for quality and efficiency be doing this poorly when its main competitor is on life support?” There’s reputation, then, there’s reality.

KarLoveBoy88: “Ford is gonna have a strong comeback as the worlds best selling auto leader.” ol’ Hank would be proud!

sj79: Everybody with his eyes open know how good some of the new Fords are.

AFSOCSARGE: “I hope the G8 becomes the new Impala SS.” Maybe. As long as any “Impala” is V8 and RWD.

Borat, the best car from a domestic manufacturer is the CTS.

AFSOCSARGE: “Should the G8 become the Chevy Camaro SS Sedan?” No.

tripleonefive: “Yes A4 Toyota and Honda still are great and much more reliable and still have higher resale then the D3 counterparts.” WHAT?

A4: Ford’s vehicles are almost as good as GM’s, and better that Honda’s with the exception of the Accord/TL.

A4: No one can be better than honda, yet not as good as toyota.

johnnycanuck: “Damn, Suzuki and Mitsubishi should just go halfers on one burial plot and save some money.” gOOD ONE.

“A4, really, this is the internet. There’s no room for the facts.” Spoken like a man who lives in the real world!

tripleonefive: Resale values are thoretical at best. I’ll not bother bringing up the Spreen Honda ad again, and I’m reading the U-T today.

global_lightning: Straight GOSPEL at 732p on the 2nd.

Three things are at play here betweenToyota, Honda, and the Big 3 sales :
1. The percieved ‘quality gap’ has been greatly reduced. This has been the primary reason why most Americans have historically aviod Big 3 cars. In particular, most of the younger car buyers haven’t experienced the poorly built U.S. cars from the 1970’s & 1980’s
2. The recent downward pressure on prices have brought the average purchase price closer to their true market value. Big 3 MSRPs for years were artificially inflated, and buyers were taking a huge hit on initial depreciation. Both factors kept people away. This issue has now been greatly reduced.
3. With the overall economy slowing, there is simply a smaller pool of buyers. The sales decrease will have to come from somewhere; with the Big 3 now competitive on quality and price, Honda and Toyota have nowhere to go but down.

tripleonefive: “The PROVEN quality gap has not been reduced but there is much marketing (especially by FOMOCO) to trick buyers into thinking that they are on par with J2 even though there is no such evidence.” WHAT?

“There is no evidence that they are on par with Honda and Toyota’s quality.” Uh, JUST DRIVE THE CARS!

DrFill: I’m pretty Sure the Camry was the No. 1 seller.
“New Ford and Dodge trucks hurt Tundra sales” That’s true. The new guy always has an advantage to some extent.

carstuff: “1115, exactly what data would you believe on quality?” Good question.

hey bailout: subject-verb agreement!

MasterYoda2005: I think you’re mischaracterized 1115.

“We all know Toyota builds good cars, its flat out the truth.” Why did my little sister just buy a VW? Because her ‘05 Camry is dead. Yes. Two-thousand five. Dead.

mayer_ray_nagin: the accord/TL is not a POS, and is marginally better than the Fusion.

The next good civic will be the first.

tripleonefive: What is used to determine value in the wallets? What someone is willing to pay for a car. I’ve gotta get another Spreen Honda ad.

parts guy: “I actually am not a fan of Hyundai, but I still believe they will grow their market share substantially in the next 5 years and I respect some of the things they are doing.” What! objectivity rears its ugly head.

“Some of my favorite vehicles are Honda products.” Mine, too, though I have a Kawasaki.

“You can stick your fingers in your ears and say ‘La, La, La – can’t hear you’ all you want, but it won’t change anything.” yep.

“Yes, there have been some awful domestic cars manufactured. There have also been some awful imports.” So true!

DetroitWatcher: “@1115: If unbiased data showed that an American car rivaled Toyota’s quality, and all the monthly car magazines backed that up, would you be open to buying it?”

You know the answer to that!

mayer_ray_nagin: “Gentlemen gentlemen gentlem, 1115 dismisses American cars because his mommy told him to.” I have a couple of theories on that subject.

injunraiv: I owned a disabled Honda Starting it was a gamble, shutting it off was a damn gamble, and the rear wiper … Wouldn’t work during a Midwestern winter, but come a 100-degree summer day and it’s like watching a Peter North movie.

tripleonefive: “Bottom line is they are still unreliable and not equal to the quality of a J2 car.” WHAT? By the way, If unbiased data showed that an American car rivaled Toyota’s quality, and all the monthly car magazines backed that up, would you be open to buying it?

06/03, 10:32 AMPOSTED BY:
sj79: “too many people are cross-shopping with Hyundai.” if these are smart people, that’s a battle Toyota loses every time.

“Buying a dull, overpriced Japanese product due to ’superior’ quality when all new cars have warranites makes no sense at all.” True dat!

The 370z (I hate that name) is indeed a truly exceptional product .

sj79: Toyota doesn’t sell luxury cars in the USA.

tripleonefive
:I don’t need anything else but the fact and its fact that Honda and Toyota are more reliable dependable cars and they have resale to show it.” WHAT? Fact: That Honda has four tires. Fact: Ten people bought hondas. Fact: A Honda XOXO has a 3-liter, 200 hp engine. NON–FACT: Honda and Toyota are more reliable dependable cars.
Theoretical resale value is vaguely if at all related to quality.

A Buick can’t be fairly compared to a rebadged Toyota.

If anyone drove a Camry fro, ‘81 to the present, would he not buy another Toyota?

People are buying Ford and GM cars because times are hard and they’re looking for value.

“Honda has a better more reliable product than D3 and people know it.” Again, WHAT?

06/03, 10:23 PMPOSTED BY:
tripleonefive: “No evidence that Toyota quality is decline (sic).” Just wake up and gou out into the world.

“Toyota is the leader in hybrid technology,” I agree there.

“(Toyota’s faux-luxury division) has an 8 speed transmission on 2 cars by the way. An 8-speed auto. To what end? To trick dumbass americans into thinking thery’re buying a BMW/Benz/Audi equivalent?

“J2 has been beating American in quality and reliability for years and looks like they will for years to come.” Again, WHAT?

“–I talk about quality and resale bc those are proven. Again, WHAT?

“Chevy commercials just attack Toyota and Honda and offer facts that really aren’t that impressive.” It’s you’re choice to be impressed — or not.

tripleonefive: Last GM I saw on the side of the road (I-5) was a tow truck …. hauling off a Toyota.

“He is in fantasy land. It must be hard work defending mediocre product 24/7. I do admire anyone who can be so passionate about Toyota products.”
—I’m not passionate about Toyota or Honda. I simply like that they have reliable quality products that have a high resale value

I know he is insane if he says Toyota products LOOK better than the competition. Even avid Toyota fans know the cars are either ugly or forgettable.
–Once again trying to change the subject. Since I have already proven you wrong I guess I can give you some opinion. It is of my opinion that the Toyota and Honda designs are more appealing that the GM Ford designs Im waiting for you to dwell on this to deflect that you haven’t proven me wrong on my resale reliability facts

”Toyota is a company that used to make looms and decided to start making cars. They have idea how to give a car any soul or personality. They merely crunch numbers and churn out dull, reliably vehicles. There are no “car guys” at Toyotas, just engineers and beancounters who have been trained in Kaizen.”

– Yea, beancounters and reliably vehicles. You can be a “car guy” while stuck on the side of the road with your Ford or GM

By the way ,
The reason that Injuraiv doesn’t respond is bc he was kicked out of his local library for using the free internet too much. He lost his job bc his Pontiac dealership is closing. Since he is mad with me someone ask him how his garbage can fire is going Inj?? He is another person who is biased towards American vehicles bc he lived in America. It all works out since he is now lives on the streets and will get to see much of America

—Now that is not nice lol and just untrue. If my arguments were stupid you would be able to disprove them. Yourself along with Injuraiv, Caddy V and the other village people haven’t offered any solid proof to show that D3 cars are equally as reliable to the J2

“I know who you are talking about, but your logic is lacking. Toyota is doing everything GM and Ford have done including allowing quality to decline”

—No evidence that Toyota quality is decline that is merely conjecture

”Over investing in trucks, relying on fleet sales, offering discounts that deflate resale value, engaging in arrogance that leads to mediocre products, lagging when it comes to technology such as direct injection, turbo’s and 6 speeds, etc.”

—-As I stated before Toyota is the leader in hybrid technology and the things you mention have nothing to do with quality and reliability. When GM makes a reliable turbo of their own, the CTS with Direct injection runs for years without a recall and the reliability is high then maybe I’ll care. Lexus has an 8 speed transmission on 2 cars by the way

“Toyota has been arrogant for a long time but the sales numbers are finally reflecting that arrogance.”
—- I guess you are either insecure or just hate a Toyota for producing reliable vehicles that GM and Ford cant compare to. J2 has been beating American in quality and reliability for years and looks like they will for years to come.

”Their product is lackluster which is why you keep talking about resale and quality. You have to beat those issues to death because you can’t talk about product”.

—–I talk about quality and resale bc those are proven. I don’t want to talk which car is the fastest with some dolts online. I argue fact and you it upsets you that no matter what you post it hasn’t derailed the facts that I stand by when I first posted on this board. Changing the subject won’t help you and I could care less about your opinion. I just want the facts ma’am

“Toyota agrees which is why their ads focus on vague claims such as “Toyota quality saves you money” instead of talking about the merits of the product.”

—-The Toyota commercials that I have seen just simply state the proven facts that they have very reliable cars with high resale values. Chevy commercials just attack Toyota and Honda and offer facts that really aren’t that impressive. I’m supposed to like a Malibu over an accord bc its 4 cylinder model get 1 more mpg in the city than the Accord? The next time Firestorm is on TV just take a look at the fine print on the bottom of the screen. It’s ridiculous. Ford just holds their own studies and claims whatever they want but either way they are liars. I just saw one and the commercial claimed that their quality can’t be beat by Honda or Toyota yet provided no evidence at all to back the claim up. The Fusion Hybrid can’t even get 38 mpg and they claim it’s getting 41. It an act of desperation bc they know they have an inferior product. None of the Fords have stood the test of time and the “new “Gm’s were recalled so they are unreliable just like their “old” cars.

“I have driven a 2008 Corolla and 2009 xB recently (both fleet cars of course) and they are thoroughly average in terms of build quality, material quality and the driving experience.”

—–Once again it’s just a bias one sided opinion. I don’t know where you were able to rent a Corolla but please let me know bc I would love to rent one All I get to rent are American cars I have driven the Saturn Aura the Pontiac G6 and the new Malibu and they were below average in all of the aspects you mentioned. The Corolla is a compact car so I’m guessing you wanted a performance oriented or luxury car. If that is the case then you should rent one.

“Hyundai designs better small car interiors than Toyota. “
——Once again that is your opinion. It’s off topic and the bottom line is Toyota and Honda build better vehicles than GM Ford and Chrysler (I may just stop mentioning the latter)

LOL I’m watching the GM bankruptcy commercial Ha Ha Ha

Dude, we all know what you need but it’s going to be tough for you because before you’ll get your one chance in life at it you’re going to have to save up a lot more pennies from mowing your parent’s lawn and then find a hooker willing to stoop down low enough to consider you.

HAD TO PUT MY, “2 CENTS” ,IN……

New cars have warranties so you are taking NO FINANCIAL RISK with regards to reliability within the warranty period.

Well that’s good for Ford and Gm bc they still have unreliable piles

The companies mentioned are marketing research companies and their data is flawed. A Buick that doesn’t sell as many or have as many models can’t be fairly compared to Lexus which does more volume and has more gadgets in their vehicles

Really where are these so called defectors? The Malibu doesn’t convert import buyers at any higher than 5% last time I checked. Also they don’t mention which models are being traded It could be an 81 Camry for an 09 Malibu

Don’t lump VW and Hyundai in with the conversation unreliable Ford and GM. People are buying D3 cars bc they are inexpensive. They will regret it when they break down and get recalled.

They will be fine. Once people realize that they bought a cheap American pile to save a buck and it breaks down and get recalled they won’t buy American anymore

I don’t have to make excuses I have the resale numbers on my side. You are coming up with every which way to bury Toyota and I’m sorry to say Toyota will be fine

I know Honda will. Honda has a better more reliable product than D3 and people know it

Aggressive, yes. reliable and dependable, no. Toyota still has the best hybrid technology out there and they have almost every Lexus model offered as a hybrid. Competition is great but Mark my words– Toyota and Honda will be fine and GM will go down. Ford will be ok and who knows with Chrysler.

Keep on making excuses and telling yourself everything is fine.

Honda may be OK in the long run.
Toyota is slowly being chopped down to size by aggressive competitors and its great.

Do you have ANY reasons to recommend Japanese cars beyond reliability? New cars have warranties so you are taking NO FINANCIAL RISK with regards to reliability within the warranty period. JD Power, CR and every other source claims that domestic quality is increasing and that cars are far less problematic than even 10 years ago. Reliability isn’t a major concern for most buyers which is why you see so many defections from Honda and Toyota. People do not care about reliability because they know most cars are reliable and thus they are checking out Ford, VW, Hyundai, etc. Once Honda and Toyota are unable to convince people that they have a monopoly on reliability (that is happening now) they wont have much left to peddle.

Keep on making excuses and telling yourself everything is fine. Honda may be OK in the long run but Toyota is slowly being chopped down to size by aggressive competitors and its great. Mark my words– 2008 will be the peak for Toyota in terms of US marketshare, worldwide sales and profits. One would think the $7.7B loss would have been a clue to someone as dense as you are that there is a problem at Toyota. They have already said they will post a bigger yearly loss in 2010. Now THAT is moving us forward.

The only thing that I have to say about Hyundai is that they are a great company. I would buy a Hyundai over a D3 product

Dr.Fill:

Give me some of what you are smoking. POsting a 40% decline when your top competitor is being trashed in the media is not impressive. What exactly is positive about Toyota’s results? Gas prices are an excuse. Toyota sells many vehicles that are not hybrids so the suggestion that the only reason they are down 40% is because of the sluggish demand for hybrids is ridiculous. Hybrids were only 14k out of 152k total sales for Toyota. Why aren’t their trucks, minivans, luxury cars and SUVS selling? The cheap gas should help them in the same way high prices boosted the Prius last year. Also, the camry did not have a strong month. Scion is a failure too- only 5k units between 3 models. Considering Americans are looking for low prices and good mileage Scion should be doing well right now.

Do you read or watch TV? Incentives for import brands are at all time highs. All Toyota does these days is advertise the latest deals. They are giving cash back and low financing and cut rate subsidized leases. Toyota is acheiving these results WITH high incentives. Imagine what would happen if they stopped putting cash on the hood? GM’s rebates aren’t even much higher than Toyotas. GM has been focusing on low interest loans.

They outsold the entire lineups of Mitsu, Suzuki, Hummer and Saab. And sold more then half as many as Acura, Audi, Infinitti, Saturn, Buick, Cadillac and Volvo. Amazing!

BTW: Toyota issued a couple of recalls this year, too.

Also, TOYOTA DID NOT HAVE A RECORD MONTH IN MAY 2008!. Someone made that fallacious statement and its a crock. Toyota’s sales were down 8% iin May 2008. There is no excuse for their performance.

1115 provides no basis for his claims of superior import quality and he knows that quality is about the same across the board. Cars rarely have major quality problems in 2009. Even if that werent the case new cars are covered by WARRANTIES. Perhaps 1115 has heard of these but they protect the buyer for 3-4 years from paying for repairs. Buying a dull, overpriced Japanese product due to “superior” quality when all new cars have warranites makes no sense at all. On top of that you get a better warranty with a Detroit vehicle which suggests they stand behind their product.

The resale value of Toyotas and Nissans are being gutted by incentives and sales to rental agencies. They are doing exactly what Detroit did for years and it will lower resale over time. If there is no advantage in resale value and no advantage in reliability there is no reason left to buy Japanese unless its a truly exceptional product like the 370Z.

Injuraiv how are you? Im not sure that you should be thinking about me bc Im not one of those guys but thanks anyway. How is the begging for change thing treating you ?
Do you have a sign that says “will sell Pontiac for change?”

BTW, I was thinking of 1115 the other day in real life. I had to go around a disabled Honda… Made me giggle!

I researched the Ford Fusion and from Automotive Journalist All Agree the Fusion has High Quality and High Value, What is Amazing I have the reports to “Substantiate What I State” Why others make claims and just because “They Believe” them that will make them true !?

“Don’t Confuse Us With The Truth and Facts We love to Believe in Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin !”
-Sarge”

It’s that simple.

No, I do not know what you believe. I can only presume what I said is correct.

You do not believe any data but your own opinion and all data is false.

Should Read:
You have here what I have discovered is allot of unsubstantiated Believing going on here which is very humorous. Has anyone ever made the attempt to “Substantiate” their clams ?

Sorry I did this late at night

-Sarge

I am open minded enough to like some domestic vehicles and some imports which means I am not blindly loyal to cars only from America, Japan, or even from just one automaker. Being in the automotive industry, I am exposed to all vehicles and I appreciate their differences, and their strengths.

Some of my favorite vehicles are Honda products, but I also acknowledge that they have some flaws – have you talked to anyone who has shelled out $4000 plus to fix the tranny in their Accord/Odyssey/TL or other similar product lately? I have. Toyondas are great, but they are not immune to problems. You can stick your fingers in your ears and say “La, La, La – can’t hear you” all you want, but it won’t change anything.

Yes, there have been some awful domestic cars manufactured. There have also been some awful imports. Do the D3 deserve constant bashing without some acknowledgement that they have done a few things right over the years and are putting some excellent products on the market now? Nope. Reality is that there is very little “black and white” in the automotive industry – it just isn’t that simple. There is a lot of grey, and that grey includes the realities that the D3 can make some cars that are decent, and that Toyota and Honda screw up once in a while. That’s life.

I think Sarge has it figured out!!: “…don’t confuse us with the Truth and Facts
We love to Believe in Leprechauns, The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus and the Great Pumpkin !
-Sarge”

On another note, I think Toyondas are good cars but a bit too expensive, and I believe their sales are down because right now there are so few buyers willing to spend a nickel more than they have to to get a decent car.

Regardless of whose study you believe or don’t believe, the Fusion is just one example of a good, competitive car. Even if you don’t think it is “the best”, it is a solid value, and reliable. That is what people want right now. The fact that Ford hasn’t asked for govt money also helps them win over some buyers.

I think Ford (and Hyundai) stand to gain the most from the current market reality as they have both shown tremendous gains in vehicle quality in recent years, and they offer solid value to their buyers. Toyota (and Honda to a lesser extent) will feel some pain, but they will manage just fine in the long run.