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  • NHTSA reviewing third generation Toyota Prius braking

    By Mark Kleis - Posted December 24th 2009

    At least dozens of owners of the latest, third generation Toyota Prius have filed complaints with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in regards to alleged brake failures they’ve experienced. The complaints are centered around the transition from regenerative to traditional braking, and the possibility that extra force is required to properly slow the vehicle.

    According to analysis by The Detroit Bureau, the issues seem to be entered around issues with the regenerative braking system, which is a core component of Toyota’s hybrid technology. The regenerative braking function allows the vehicles to recapture energy while braking, allowing the hybrid to run on electric mode rather than from the gasoline engine.

    In the case of several of the complaints, the Prius either has diminished braking power, or possibly even surges forward with unintended acceleration depending on which complaint you review.

    “What I, and others have been experiencing, is certainly not “runaway acceleration” or anything to do with pressing the gas pedal,” Robert Becker, 2010 Prius owner told The Detroit Bureau.

    “But rather the loss of braking power or braking momentum when hitting a pothole, manhole cover, or the like. This requires the driver to press down again harder on the brakes to slow or stop the car,” Becker said.

    Another Prius owner who filed a complaint offered a more thorough explanation for their experience, “There have been several incidents in which my car seemed to surge forward while I was in the process of braking and hit a bump, railroad tracks or pothole. Initially, I convinced myself I must have been letting up on the brake when I hit the bump, but when this same thing happened three days ago on slippery, icy roads, I knew for 100% certain I had not let up on the brake. My car surged as I was slowly pulling up to a stop sign and gently braking. I came very close to hitting the car in front of me, had to push down on the brakes very hard, which activated the abs.”

    The alleged problems with the Prius’ braking system go beyond simply being a possible danger to its occupants, but some are raising concern of the hazard posed to pedestrians and other motorists. Given the frequency of lacking deceleration while approaching stop lights, stop signs and on surface streets, pedestrians are at a particularly high level of risk.

    An internal NHTSA memo echoed the concerns for pedestrian safety, “It appears that when you hit a bump, the regenerative braking (front wheels only) cuts out, and there is a short delay until the friction braking kicks in. This results in loss of braking, which is experienced acceleration (due to sudden end of deceleration from braking). Net impact is still a loss of braking/ increase in stopping distance. This could be fatal for pedestrians — it happens when approaching stop lights if you hit a pothole.”

    When Toyota was approached by The Detroit Bureau about this matter they initially said they were unaware of the issue, but later released this statement, “We are aware of the complaints filed with NHTSA. The agency has not opened an investigation. We are investigating the issue based on internet traffic, customer comments to Toyota Customer Relations, and NHTSA complaints. It is too early to speculate the final conclusion(s) of our investigation and subsequent actions.”

    47 COMMENTS

    1. photo
      MHW217 days ago

      The term “Moving Forward” has not served Toyota too well as of late.

    2. photo
      jayjc08217 days ago

      Liars covering up even more lies, that’s what me thinks.

    3. photo
      idrinorbarsaku217 days ago

      Sometimes when I brake over a pothole, the abs gets triggered(only on the tire going over the whole) and it is usually involved in potholes that are not even with the ground. I’m not a fan of toyota, but I can’t help but think that these people are only out to hurt toyota, and are making a problem seem SO bad. Can’t come to a stop fast enough? How about you try not going as fast, or avoid those potholes….it’s not that hard!

    4. photo
      Mark Kleis217 days ago

      Do keep in mind the complaints were filed by OWNERS of the Prius – so I’m not so sure they are just out to hurt Toyota, or they likely wouldn’t have purchased from them in the first place.

    5. photo
      sprockkets217 days ago

      This is what happens when software controls the care and not hardware. Brake by wire is asking for trouble, but in this case you have to have it because it is a hybrid.

      idrinorbarsaku, do you have a 3rd gen Prius? Otherwise, your situation has no bearing on this article.

    6. photo
      johnnycanuck217 days ago

      Well this shatters another illusion… I always thought that since Prius drivers think they’re holier than thou braking was achieved through divine intervention.

    7. photo
      idrinorbarsaku217 days ago

      Actually, yes it does, because I mentions it happened due to the ABS!!!

    8. photo
      LRPct217 days ago

      Thats pretty common for ABS.. Subaru and other manuafacters have had TSB’s out for different ABS controllers for the same type of thing. Another reason to avoid potholes and such when driving, instead of texting, putting makeup on, or reading a book.

    9. photo
      nestle_s217 days ago

      This is surprising. I have went over potholes and rails on railroad crossings and my ABS never reacted like the way the Prius owners described on the report. I have pressed the brakes before when I hit a pothole and can’t maneuver because of someone in the next lane, and the brake power never diminished. And I never text or use my cell phone while I drive.

    10. photo
      sprockkets217 days ago

      idrinorbarsaku, this situation is happening due to the car trying to figure out whether to brake via regeneration or via the actual brakes, not ABS tripping over a pothole. YES, that may be its way of doing ABS since it can’t do it via regenerative braking, but then again, 2 gens of Prius owners don’t have that issue.

      Yes, we know, you hit a pothole and ABS triggered. What car do you have?

    11. photo
      jdasch1217 days ago

      Many hybrids have that “lag braking” feel when they are switching regen to friction. Escape Hybrids, and civic hybrids have some of that ” I wonder if the brakes are going to engage” feeling. Prius drivers tend to dismiss all of the cars shortcomings the most….this brake problem must be real for them to come out of the closet and say something.

    12. photo
      idrinorbarsaku217 days ago

      I wasn’t saying that this problem is due to the abs, I was simply stating that you can get something similar to happen from abs. As stated in the post, “loss of braking power or braking momentum when hitting a pothole, manhole cover, or the like” can happen when you brake and abs gets triggered over an uneven pothole(one that is lower than the ground traveling on), or just random holes. When this happened to me, you could feel the car stopping, then letting loose as the abs came on, then a couple of moments after massing the manhole cover, you would feel the braking stop again. To me, it seems like abs is getting intertwined with the regenerative braking and normal braking…. they seem to be eerily similar!

      nestle_s,
      do you have a prius?

    13. photo
      A4217 days ago

      I’ve been having “lag braking” when mine get wet on my damn VW that just had it’s brakes inspected (and came out with a gold star). Toyota sucks, but these cars obviously don’t operate the same as your “regular” car, so take that into account.

    14. photo
      carstuff217 days ago

      Yep it is those darn Toyota owners trying to screw those darn folks who buy those feren cars. Toyota is american, isn’t it?

    15. photo
      Zesty Honda217 days ago

      My Accord does the same thing when braking hard and hit a pothole or bump; I think this is just a normal design of ABS.

    16. photo
      wyVern217 days ago

      It’s No.1 CURSE…
      Yeah Toyota, U bring this on urself.

    17. photo
      The Pill217 days ago

      idrinorbarsaku so your experiences with another vehicle is evidence that those reports from owners of current gen Prius’ are mean spirited attempts to smear Toyota? Your argument as well as your reasoning makes ABSOLUTELY no sense regarding the Prius braking issue.

      Where are your facts to back up your anecdotal so-called experiences involving Toyota Prius’?

      When are Toyota “apologist” and acolytes going to stop living in a place called Denial and face the honest, straight forward fact(?) that Toyota, like many large corporations, cares only about their bottom line and not yours? Unless of course you are a shill for this brand and their arrogant, lying, cover-ups!

    18. photo
      daiso216 days ago

      poor quality toyota. they use cheap parts.
      toyota always kill people, and they hiding its problem.

    19. photo
      daiso216 days ago

      Ex-Toyota Lawyer Accuses Automaker of Destroying Rollover Evidence.
      According to CBS News, an ex-lawyer for Toyota of North America has filed a racketeering suit against his former employer. ToMoCo’s former managing counsel Dimitrios P. Biller accused the automaker of illegally withholding evidence in hundreds of rollover death and injury cases, in a “ruthless conspiracy” to suborn evidence of its vehicles “structural shortcomings.
      http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/29/cbsnews_investigates/main5273636.shtml

    20. photo
      daiso216 days ago

      Toyota always pushing 30% ‘cutting cost’ to their supplier. Because of this, Supplier should use cheap components.
      Toyota is always same as ‘made in China’ quality.
      Toyota is no better than Chinese or India auto makers.

    21. photo
      daiso216 days ago

      The Toyota Urban Cruiser, the European version of the Scion xD, received a poor overall rating of 3 stars from the European New Car Assessment Programme.
      The reason for the three star rating was the poor score of 58% for adult occupant protection

    22. photo
      daiso216 days ago

      Toyota’s troubles too long ignored

      Toyota’s reputation for safety and reliability suffered a major hit recently when it issued recall notices for close to 4 million vehicles susceptible to sudden acceleration.

      But the automaker’s actions aren’t the only ones that warrant scrutiny.

      Since 2001, more than 1,000 owners of certain models of Toyota and Lexus vehicles have reported problems with over-acceleration, according to a review of federal data by the Los Angeles Times.

      Many of the incidents ended in crashes, and at least 19 people have been killed. The number of deaths is higher than the 11 linked to similar problems in vehicles produced by all other automakers combined.
      http://hamptonroads.com/2009/11/toyotas-troubles-too-long-ignored

    23. photo
      daiso216 days ago

      Toyota to recall 43,000 cars in China
      2009/12/25

      TOKYO — Japan’s Toyota Motor Corp. is recalling about 43,000 cars in China due to a defect that may cause engine oil to leak, a company spokesman said Friday.

      The recall affects four models, the Lexus ES 350, the Lexus RX 350, the Highlander sports utility vehicle and the Previa minivan, said the spokesman, Yuta Kaga.

      It comes just months after Toyota announced its biggest ever recall in China, affecting about 688,000 vehicles, due to a defect in the electric window system.

      Toyota’s reputation for quality has been dented recently by a series of recalls or safety issues, including a fatal accident in California involving an accelerator pedal that jammed under the floor ma

      http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/091225/business/japan_us_auto_company_recall_toyota_1

    24. photo
      carstuff216 days ago

      Zesty, this is not what you are experiencing in your Honda. Unless of course yours is a hybrid which means you also are also having a problem.

      Yes an ABS equipped vehicle can get “confused” during a braking event when the wheel is off the ground (after pothole) BUT in the Prius hybrid it sounds like their are more issues in play due to the combination of regen braking and normal hydraulic braking which leads to a longer period of non braking.

      Most likely Toyota will say it is normal for a hybrid and leave it at that. At least until they are forced to put tie straps on the brake pads to hold them tighter against the drums.

      Seriously, the solution will most likely to put more emphasis (computer driven) on hydraulic braking over regen which will lower the mpg.

    25. photo
      LRPct216 days ago

      drums huh..?? I didn’t know the Prius had drum brakes…

    26. photo
      carstuff216 days ago

      Actually I have no idea. Just sounded better than discs when using tie straps.
      :)

      But yes it has 4 discs.

    27. photo
      masteryoda83216 days ago

      i really believe that Toyota is sucumbing to the curse of the Big Three–being big just for sakes of being big doesnt lend to building quality cars. It just doesnt.

    28. photo
      psiclone216 days ago

      To people that say this is just more dog piling on Toyota: with no denigration intended, most Toyota owners are not mechanically inclined or auto-savvy people; that could be said of most vehicle owners in general, but particularly Toyota owners, in my opinion. I think what we’re actually seeing unfold here is that many Toyota owners have historically been too intimidated to report problems because they figured the “situation” (never “problem”) was either only perceived or due to their own fault. After all, they were talking about a Toyota. The prime reason they bought the vehicle was because it was a Toyota.

      Again, without any denigration intended, average Toyota owners strike me as having the ‘safety in numbers’ mentality and as being more likely than most to only ‘come out of the closet’ against Toyota if done en masse with others. Thanks to the giant slug known as the MSM, Toyota owners have noticed the herd has started moving.

      From what little information is available to the public on the topic, the problem sounds to be more related to the regenerative braking system than common ABS response oddities. Typically concerns like these aren’t brought to light unless there is an inordinate amount of complaints received. If the complaints were consistent with previous generation Prius or other hybrid models, it probably wouldn’t have been identified. The only other thing I can think of is that as more people convert to hybrids, just as when having converted to SUVs, they will not properly anticipate differences in the ways the machines operate, thereby promting more complaints.

    29. photo
      CiNO216 days ago

      I wonder why problems always come to world largest automaker. Sometimes misunderstanding becomes misleading.

    30. photo
      Borat216 days ago

      When I drove large GM cars and Ford Taurus from rental companies, after releasing accelerator pedal and start applying brakes, cars accelerated. I mentioned this fact to rental reps and was told that it happens often due ABS use. Those cars where not Priuses.

    31. photo
      idrinorbarsaku216 days ago

      daiso, I agree.

      There seems to be a huge domino affect going on in toyota recently. I would be lying if I said I didn’t like it though.

    32. photo
      Lyndongolden215 days ago

      Our household has owned a wide variety of vehicle over the years.

      Out of all the cars, three were VERY sensitive to braking over rough pavement…with frequent ABS activation and extended stopping distances: 2002 Subie WRX , 2004 Subie STI, and 2004 Ponti Grand Prix.

      Both Subies were involved in minor rear-enders thanks to the hyper ABS.

    33. photo
      Bubs Solo215 days ago

      Notice how this is a Phil free zone…That guy is such a tool.

    34. photo
      Tranced25215 days ago

      I have a 2nd Gen Prius, and have the same issue. For the most part, it’s not alarming, but when coming up fast to a light, it can be unnerving. Where I live, even the white markings on the roads are raised up high enough to manifest the braking power loss. When you’re aware of it, you can adjust your braking habits to suit your car. However, this doesn’t help in situations where you’re just not expecting the issue to rise. I feel very unsafe when braking behind another vehicle, and often the car comes to a rest closer to the car in front than I anticipate by many feet. I can see the cause for complaint, as it surely diminishes your capability to properly stop the car at the point you intend.

      I do believe that this is a regenerative braking transition, as you can really hear the difference. The regenerative braking creates a “whine” where the traditional braking doesn’t. Under normal, uninterrupted braking, the regenerative braking kicks off at around 7mph, where the traditional braking kicks in. The car does not “surge.” When a seemingly slight bump or notch is driven over under any braking, the whine disappears after the bump, along with roughly 50% braking force. It is very noticeable and VERY SCARY at times. This is not only over pot-holes as described above, but manifests even over white painted road markings less than an inch high.

      My car is 100% reliable, and I love my Toyota product, but brakes should behave consistently.

    35. photo
      carstuff215 days ago

      olds, that is the old Prius.

      “Disc brakes are now used on all four corners, replacing the front disc/rear drum brakes in the current model.”

    36. photo
      Harrison215 days ago

      Well they weren’t too smart buying a hybrid to begin with…

    37. photo
      alsvw215 days ago

      Stop it all of you, its not about braking or safety. It’s about the elusion of safety, and all about making a profit. Don’t you all get it. God, what a bunch of losers.

      Oh, my god. That sounded so much like dr.filledwithcrap. What is going on with me, I mean toyota makes the best cars in the world. I would put my children and parents in one, its the only car to drive.

      What the hell is going on, I can’t stop it. I have lost my mind.

      Toyodaa = crap

    38. photo
      mikemaj82215 days ago

      yea, my ABS does this too….when I’m stopping hard in the snow or rain. lol wow.

    39. photo
      408cid ZJ214 days ago

      Darwin was right

    40. photo
      oldraven214 days ago

      This has nothing to do with the difficulty of bringing new technology to market. This is the third generation Prius, and so the third generation of regenerative braking on the vehicle. This is called screwing up something you already had figured out. Look for more of this from Toyota, once the 30% cheaper parts start hitting the streets.

    41. photo
      kenavt214 days ago

      With all of the Toyota screwups lately (the recall in particular, I feel that a shift is happening. I think that GM and especially Ford are starting to bounce back. With great new products (Fusion,LaCrosse, Volt, Malibu, Mustang) the Big Two revival is starting. Chrysler,meanwhile, is just so far behind with models like the Sebring and the PT Cruiser there is littlehope outside of assimilation into Fist.

    42. photo
      Blakkarr214 days ago

      @Kenavt,

      Fist? LOL! Wah-Tah!

      I know you meant FIAT. Still that sounded like CHRYSLER was being bought up by a weapons manufacturer or something.

    43. photo
      Blakkarr214 days ago

      I think this is all a side effect of TOYOTA getting too big and being too comfortable. Yes I am pleased that they recently launched a super car, which they will not actually sell, just lease… which is a legal euphemism for Car Rental, and will have a new small sports car out soon. I would buy the SUBARU version myself.

      But this company is falling into the same trap that got GM in so much trouble: Quantity trumping Quality. In the end Mr. TOYODA better get it in his head that being biggest doesn’t count for much if you are not the best too. It’s better to be the best, not merely thought of as the best, than to be the biggest.

      Don’t worry. I expect VW to hit the same problem when they are “the largest automaker in the world” for a few years. Although this might take longer as VW is getting bigger by buying companies up and not building the cars themselves. AUDI and PORSCHE (Cayenne is a sport oriented Tourag, remember?). as it is VW will not be trying to build dozens of different cars, but perhaps managing them across several subsidiaries, companies owned by another company.

    44. photo
      johnnycanuck214 days ago

      I gave Mr Toyoda credit for finally getting the LFA out from under its cloak of invisibility as well as the FT-86. All these accusations against Toyota were the result of decisions that did not occur under his watch. In fact it’s very much the same situation as Sergio Marchionne is facing with Chrysler. People are overly quick to judge and lay blame for the handiwork of the previous regime all the while conveniently overlooking the reality that it’s just impossible to make some changes quick enough to silence the critics.

      And no, I’m not doing the Doc’s dirty work here and neither am I defending Toyota. The Prius may have been around for a decade now, but on the grand scale of the automobile as we know it a lot of the technology is very much cutting edge. I don’t care who it is, there are always going to be issues when you’re the one leading the pack, and when it comes to hybrids Toyota is that guy… like it or not.

    45. photo
      shaver213 days ago

      This seems minor to me, but. Clearly the problems are mounting for Toyota. Im not sure it will matter to the minnions though. And there woes have not got nearly the press it deserves.

    46. photo
      beatusmongous213 days ago

      “Fist” had me rolling. That was really funny.

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