I’d like to think I’ve got 12 inches, and as long as I don’t measure …

same thing with 1115 and his “GM cars are Crap — that’s a fact” schtick

I think I’ve proven my point far times over, tripleonefive. If you had any clue to actually verify all the information I gave you, you’d find much of it is from the past 20 years, and a lot of it’s from Cadillac, Buick and Oldsmobile. The links are there, and if you have as much time as I believe you do on your hands to argue relentlessly on the internet, I think you should go check them out.

I do give toyota credit for its hybrid system, but it’s still unlikely I’ll ever buy one of their cars

And you have NO facts. Remember when I asked you to provide evidence that GM has made ‘crap’ for the last 20 years? Still waiting. You are still in denial about Toyonda making crap (for 5 years now and counting) all of which I have proven. And you got killed on the argument about Toyonda being “an innovator”

http://www.leftlanenews.com/forums/showthread.php?p=553#post553

It lists all the links of major importance that I used. All the links are very keen and accurate, I tried to use wikipedia the least I could but alas, it has all the information in one place.

You’ve seriously amazed me with your ignorance and childish attitude. Obviously your a racist too, “anything from GM Ford and Chrylser ” (quote taken from auto spies survey, 10/21/2007 at 12:33:55 PM, and you spelled Chrysler wrong, there should be a comma after GM).

“The Japanese are the innovators of the quality car that lasts long and is reliable They are the innovators”

Seriously, go find me a Japanese vehicle, created in the very early 1900′s that’s had everyday use in the colony of German South-West Africa, today’s Namibia, featured all wheel drive and four wheel steering, and existed for over 40 years, until dissapearing with the onslaught of World War 2 (I’m referring to the 1907 Dernburg Wagen, an amazing vehicle that is cataloged on serious wheels, the website, under Mercedes Benz. It’s current location is unknown. Looking back, I must correct myself and Wiki; the first four wheel steered vehicle is the Dernburg Wagen).

Find me a Japanese car, that has experienced well over 2 million miles, millions of sales, and is still sputtering today (A Volkswagen Beetle, as of 1994 Guinness World Book of Records), or the highest record mileage for an automobile with the original gasoline motor without an overhaul- 577,363 miles to 5 Jan 1993 by a 1979 Cadillac Sedan de Ville. I’m sure though, these are no longer the record holders, but the only record book I have on hand is the 1994 Guinness Book of World Records.

Still, go find me a Japanese car that has withstood over 80 years of service, is still in working order, and has sold for a resale price of $17.6 million (I’m referring to the 1931 Bugatti Royale Kellner Coupe, which was sold in 1987 $8.7 million, which has been adjusted for inflation). The only Japanese vehicle to ever win the 24 Hour of Le Mans, is the Mazda 787B (and because you consider Mazda an English mark now, I can even disqualify that win).

Or, on a lighter note, a Japanese car that is smaller than the worlds smallest car, the Peel P50 (I have seen ONE, and their indescribably TINY, one my favorite vehicles since there were such low production numbers, and being such a unique, economical vehicle. “Cheaper than walking”).

So, what do the Japanese have on me? First to slap a navigation screen on a car (on a lighet note, NOT TRUE either, James Bond did it first!!!!!!), or a nice, but not ground breaking or new, innovation on an engine? No, they have nothing on me, the only thing they’ve ever had on me is being able to copy past designs, cheaper, and build on that success. Not to be vulgar, but YOU have nothing on me, you have no facts, no educated opinion. I’m almost certain you haven’t ridden in more than 3 of those vehicles that were listed, and yet you’ve already condemned them.

Seriously 1115, you are getting ass raped left and right by EVERYBODY who is on my side (the fair, unbiased people who buy the best car, not always the Japanese car)

I got your ass now, hillbilly boy! You just posited yourself as Moron No. 1.

1115: I don’t care for “nav,” but the Enclave I thought I had a shot at had it.

Commodore: I don’t think the Fluffer has ever owned a domestic.

jayjc08: good stuff at 10:55s on the 25th. It’ll ignore that information, though.

CA36GTP: The only thing that keeps the S2000 from being the worst Miata knockoff is the MR-2.

Commodore: the 8-speed auto is supposed to make you forget you’re just buying a Toyota Celsior. But I think Hyundais are good.

“LOL sure the marketing is keeping the Japanese cars running and keeping them more reliable than the Americans.”
It’s marketing that makes people THINK Japanese cars are more reliable. That’s good for everybody.

I bet my little sister trades her Camry in for something else. “Saturn Error?” The only Saturn error there ever was was when I bought a civic instead of an SL1.

MHW: I’ve owned three imports and had one good ownership experience.

“An import owner won’t trade a proven Accord or Camry in.” The owner of a Proven ANYTHING is unlikely to switch brands. I’ve owned a cavalier and an Olds. Buying a Buick. A former co-worker drove a civic for 17 years. She bought a CR-V. Not my choice, but I can’t blame her.

Commodore: there is no true far left or far right in the U.S.

Decent GM cars by division:

Chevrolet:
Malibu: Best Commuter coffin available in the U.S. (Old one was good, but styling and marketing made it a rental car)
Corvette: World’s best sports-car value.
Tahoe: My mom drives one. Great!
HHR: good idea, poorly executed.
Silverado: World’s best truck.
Suburban: Most dependable …
Camaro: We’ll see, but historically great more often than not.
Cobalt: OK, but not spectacular. At least it’s no civic or corolla.

Pontiac:
G6: Descendant of the longest lasting midsizer from the ’80s.
Solstice: best miata knockoff.

Saturn:
Aura: see Malibu.
Astra: We’ll see
Sky: see solstice
Vue: best cute-ute ever!
Outlook: Acadia twin

GMC:
Acadia: Glenn Beck says this is the best car ever
Yukon: I like it, esp. the Denali
Sierra: see Silverado

Buick:
Lucerne: I like it, but not my cup of tea.
Enclave: I’m buying one. ‘Nuff said.

Cadillac:
CTS: Yeah! Better than the G35, which is a good car.
STS Seats in the mid-’90s model were too narrow. At least it’s not an Accord or Crown.
XLR: Any pimp would be proud
Escalade: Caddy takes the Japanese route.
(Yes, all others are decent at the least)

Hummer:
H2: I wouldn’t buy one, but I’d like to spend a half-hour in one in the swamps of Louisiana.
H3: ditto.

Saab:
9-3 (the new one, with XWD)

The fluffer will never admit he’s wrong.

MHW: “The Tahoe and Suburban are also leaders in there segment and enjoy all the goodness of the Silverado.”

That’s a lot of goodness!

Pontiac:
G6 (you said you liked it) Likes the coupes styling not the engineering Im sure it drives like hell
G8 (+ Wagon, Ute versions)- Holden imported autralian crap Not proven in the US
Solstice – Pretty nice so far you have 1

Saturn:
Aura- The Error Opel unproven crap from Europe Drove like hell (I rented one in April 07) Wont beat the Accord camry or even the Sonata at this point
Astra- Ass tra same as above I will rent one and see how crappy it drives
Sky- Same as the Pontiac so I guess that is 2 for you
Vue- Looks nice but its the same story as the Error
Outlook- Nice but GM made too many copies and they wont get to redesign it soon enough It will fade away

GMC:
Acadia Same as Outlook
Yukon Same as Tahoe
Sierra Same as Tahoe

Buick:
Lucerne-Nice if we are selling it in China This is the USA and people dont buy these Has no track record to go on Unproven
Enclave Same as the Outlook

Cadillac:
CTS- Like the interior but not matching up to the G35 or any car from Europe
STS- Bloated not better than a GS Lexus or RL
XLR- Its a Vette so the roof will fly off
Escalade- Oversized overpriced but I do like it so you are at 3
(all others are decent at the least)

Hummer:
H2 (does what its made for, and it was not made for MPGs) Please
H3 Please
And hopefully the H4 will be good Please

Saab:
9-3 (the new one, with XWD) I like the Saab but GM is ruining them I will give you 4 then

You were right GM has 4 good vehicles instead of 3 Dont forget the recalled Torrent and Equinox I liked those also (lol)
The Japanese are the innovators of the quality car that lasts long and is reliable They are the innovators of high resale value and %’s
They have it and GM doesnt
Thanks

jayjc showed you 3 feet across your screen of examples of innovations that were NOT made by the Japanese and yet you still insist that the Japs are leaders in innovation? HOW?

I am trying to make progress here so that we can agree on some things which would make it easier when we continue to argue in the future. At least we won’t start all over in every new thread involving domestics or imports. I mean, where do you get the 20 years of bad cars? I can agree with you to some degree on that but can you please provide your evidence for that claim?

And now you are back to saying they once make three decent cars. That is a gross underexaggeration and you know it. Decent GM cars by division:

Chevrolet:
Malibu
Corvette
Tahoe
HHR
Silverado
Suburban
Camaro!!
…maybe Cobalt

Pontiac:
G6 (you said you liked it)
G8 (+ Wagon, Ute versions)
Solstice

Saturn:
Aura
Astra
Sky
Vue
Outlook

GMC:
Acadia
Yukon
Sierra

Buick:
Lucerne
Enclave

Cadillac:
CTS
STS
XLR
Escalade
(all others are decent at the least)

Hummer:
H2 (does what its made for, and it was not made for MPGs)
H3
And hopefully the H4 will be good

Saab:
9-3 (the new one, with XWD)

That is 27 vehicles up there that I listed. I don’t want to spend a week debating each one, but the point is that you are very wrong and biased to say there are just 3 good ones. Instead of arguing with you (assuming you disagree with some of my choices) I will knock off 7 off the list. That’s 20 vehicles that GM makes that are “decent vehicles” as you call them. I call them VERY competitive. And don’t just respond to my list, give your evidence on how GM made crap for the last 20 years like you claim and at least admit that you are wrong about the innovations argument – don’t be so stubborn! We proved you wrong, just admit it so we can agree that at least the Japs are not any bigger innovators than everyone else.

You can prove those articles by posting them otherwise you are a liar. An import owner wont trade a proven Accord or Camry in for an Error or Maliboo.
If the owner had a Mazda 6 or Suzuki or something along those lines then maybe but not the top two Japanese cars
Ill be waiting for your links
Did you look up past vs passed ?

In the longest post in LLN history which I don’t have the time to read (but am confident that he killed all your arguments), jayjc talked about ALL the innovations Americans have made which you convinietly failed to mention. We were building cars LONG before the Japs were. In fact, Japanese started building their cars not too long before they were fighting us in World War II.
Americans were responsible for things such as mass-producing cars, automatic transmissions, and MANY others as listed in jayjc’s list.

If you think that the Japanese are being innovators with such things as 8 speed transmissions, you are being FOOLED because they are simply bringing back useless things from the past. The first 8 speed was in a MOSKVICH (a Soviet car) from decades ago. What Lexus did was simply bring back that idea. It is like in the 30s when cars went from V8s to V12s and then to V16s. Useless!! It has been done before, and it was useless. Same with electric cars – they are not new. They were the first cars Detroit build and they have been built long before the Japs. It is all simply GOOD MARKETING and you fall right into it. That is why you like Hyundai so much, they are simply the best at marketing (almost as good as Toy).

As we have shown you, Japs SUCK in quality lately (since at least 2003, as I showed you in the other thread because they are plagued by massive recalls), the Japs are NOT better innovators as we just proved to you (maybe in TVs, but I do NOT want to see the US auto industry go the way of our consumer electronics industry) so the only thing you have left to go on is style, which as you said is subjective but the vast majority of people (even import buyers) agree that their cars are BLAND

Not that it isn’t still fuckin’ sweet in an S2000.

“Ok well build quality-Japanese win” – because nobody builds nice vehicles outside of the Japanese evidently?-Not the American car companies

“Technology- Japanese win First in dash nav, Vtec, Hybrid tech” – no other vehicle manufacturer has ever advanced technology? Yea the other companies did it later but the Japanese were first

“Style- It’s subjective but Japanese still win” – if it’s subjective then how can they win?
Well I said its subjective so in my opinion the Japanese win
Keep up

Ford’s CD3 platform=Mazda’s, the platform was designed in Japan By Mazda.

It’s called Fords because, they use it, and have controlling interest in Mazda.

The vehicles themselves couldn’t be any more different from each other, the CX-9 has Ford’s V6, but that V6 that is now larger and built in japan, the CX-7, and CX-9 are all Mazda, the suspension, the interior, the styling, the dynamics, share nothing with Ford, nearly same goes for the 3 and 6, with a few exceptions.

The DISI turbo found in the CX-7 is all Mazda.

Ford needs Mazda.

The only two re badge jobs are the Tribute and the B-Series, get a f***ing clue you half wit.

The thing is, you don’t use logic. Whatever you have stuck inside your head about Japanese Auto manufacturers is gibberish and your as ignorant as…

I’m gonna coin the term *as ignorant as a 1115*, but despite that…

build quality-Japanese win

If you really must dwell on the past, then I will also. Auto manufacturers have been building cars for MUCH longer than Toyota or Honda have been. Do you have any clue how many Model T’s still exist? Over 100 years, they were never recalled, and their warranty was never “extended” (pathetic excuse). 500,000 doesn’t sound like a big number, compared to the amount they sold, but over a period of 100 years that’s more, than compared to the few million Corollas that have lasted, since 1966.
And now, I’ll be reasonable and dwell on the future. Tell me, what is the title of this page? Currently, Nissan is recalling .65 million cars! And it’s too bad for you, Nissan IS a Japanese company, and if you want to agree, go suck it. They still have their international design bases located in Atsugi-Shi, Kanagawa of Japan, where it’s been since 1954, and their headquarters, scattered, but it’s main headquarters still in Japan. Their alliance with Renault has bared fruit, but they haven’t shared many internal components vital to each others business.

And simply on the first page of an LLN search of “recall”, Toyota has recalled 1.1 million cars (remember, this is just the first page, not overall recalls or recalls not mentioned by LLN). That’s almost all of the results on the page, combined!
And that’s still not the end of it. Of the most recalled vehicles in 2007, Toyota is second on the list, Nissan is fourth, Suzuki is seventh, the Infiniti G35 coupe is 10th, and the Nissan Versa is 12th. Of that same list of vehicles recalled in 2007, 35% of them were of Japanese origin, the second most to any country! Vehicles of American origin, a mere 14%.

Many American cars do hold their value well. According to Kelly Blue Books 2007 values, the Chevrolet Corvette will retain it’s value the best, compared to all other vehicles in the industry, as of 2007. Also, Volkswagen is predicted to hold the most value of any one auto manufacturer in the United States.

Also, according to Kelly Blue Books, I compared a few vehicles.

Ford Edge- SE trim, 3.5 liter Auto, base, msrp at $26,025.00, invoice at $24,625.00, and blue book at $25,635.00.
Toyota Highlander- 3.3 liter auto, not base, msrp at $26,625.00, new car invoice at $23,770.00, and blue book at $25,427.00.
Honda Pilot- 3.5 liter auto, msrp at $27,690.00, invoice at $25,138.98, and blue book at $26,444.00.

Toyota Camry- Base, msrp at $19,130.00, invoice at $17,558.00, and blue book at $18,085.00
Ford Fusion- Base, msrp at $18,155.00, invoice at $17,041.00, and blue book at $17,211.00
Honda Accord- Base, msrp at $19,260.00, invoice at $17,525.16, blue book at $17,527.00.

Now, those weren’t necessarily used car prices, but it does show price flux over short periods of time.

A comparable 2004 Honda Accord is KB recommended at $12,785.00. A comparable 2004 Mazda 6 (you did pretty much say Mazda was American, did you not?) is KB recommended at $13,365.00. Also, a comparable 2004 Chevrolet Impala did pretty good too, at $11,650.00. Not as high of a resale, but it wasn’t sold for as much in the first place. If you want to argue that the Impala isn’t quite in the same demographic, then we can compare the Chevrolet Malibu, which did even better considering it’s base price.

There’s a lot more, but I won’t let it consume my time.

Technology and Innovation- Japanese win First in dash nav, Vtec, Hybrid tech
Figuring your age, I don’t expect you to really know what technology is, especially in a car.

The first internal combustion engine was derived by English inventor Sir Samuel Morland, who used it to drive water pumps, but was refined by Jean Joseph Etienne Lenoir (Belgian Born) to drive other mechanical parts. The MacPherson strut design was drawn up by a man named Fornanca of Fiat, in the 1920′s, and was then refined by Earl S. MacPherson, who worked at Ford. The Chapman strut, was designed by Lotus cars founder, Colin Chapman, who was British. Thomas Newcomen created the first cylinder-piston engine, in 1712 at Dudley Castle. A Frenchman named Etienne Lenoir patented the first practical gas engine in Paris in 1860 and drove a car based on the design from Paris to Join ville in 1862. In 1876, Nokolaus Otto patented the Otto cycle engine. Chrysler Corporation introduced the first commercially available power steering system on the 1951 Chrysler Imperial under the name Hydra guide. The first 4WD system was made by Dutch company Jacobus Spyker in 1902. The first tow truck was born in 1916 in the city of Chattanooga, after Ernest Holmes, Sr.. The Antoinette, a short lived French automobile manufacturer, was the first to use a V-8 engine in his cars. Lancia developed it’s first V-6 engine in 1950. Cadillacs 1981 Seville was the first full production car to feature cylinder deactivation, with the 1905 Sturtevant 38/45 six being the first vehicle to showcase cylinder deactivation. The first supercharged engine was the Mercedes 40 hp. The first Electronic Fuel injected car was the Volkswagen type3 & 4. The first four barrel carburetor was the 1941 Buick. The first turbo-charged car was the Oldsmobile Cutlass. The first point ignition was the Cadillac Model Thirty. The first engine with a removable cylinder head was the Ford Model T. The first gas turbine car was by Rover. The first wankle engine was put into production by NSU. The first Ute was the Ford Australia Coupe Utility. The first overdrive was on the Chrysler Airflow. The first 8 speed was on the 1960 Moskvitch 410/411, not Lexus. The first automatic transmission was Oldsmobile’s Hydra-matic. The first 7 speed automatic transmission was on the Mercedes Benz Trip-Tronic. The first front wheel drive car was the 1924 Tracta. The first Mid engine car was produced by Rumpler. The first mass produced sedan was the 1911 Speedwell Motor Car. The first hatchback was the 1953 Aston Martin DB2/4. The first CVT in a car was used by the 1958 DAF 600 “A-Type”. The first AWD car was the Jensen FF. The first independent front suspension was used on the 1949 Ford Vedette. The first fully active suspension was used on the 1983 Lotus 92. The 1919 Hispano-Suiza H6 was the first car to use disk brakes on all four wheels. The first electronic parking brake is on the Lincoln LS. The first use of cruise control was on the 1953 Imperial. The first run flat tire was used on the 1974 Mini 1275GT. The first HID lights were used on the Lincoln Mark Vlll. The first retractable headlights were on the 1936 Cord. The first multiplexed wiring system was used on the Cadillac Allante, although there had been similar systems before it. The first AC alternator was equipped on the 1960 Valiant. The first electric self-starter was used by Cadillac in 1912. The first car to equip air conditioning was the 1938 Studebaker Commander. The first climate control was used on 1964 Cadillacs. The ABS system was very much pioneered by the Jeep Grand Cherokee, and was the first SUV to feature ABS. The first traction control system and “Fly by wire” technology was featured on the BMW 7 series. The Cadillac Deville was the first vehicle to feature “night vision”. The Ford Model T was the first vehicle to reach the 1,000,000 sales mark. The first “heads up” display was on the Oldsmobile Cutlass, and the first airbags were also featured on an Oldsmobile (one of my favorite marks). The first 6 airbag system though, was on the Audi A8. The first windshield defroster was on a Studebaker, as was the first windshield washer and air conditioner (as I mentioned). The first full electric, Chinese electric vehicle is the Miles Electric (on sale currently- it’s the first Chinese vehicle in America, for that matter). The first turn signals were used on the 1939 Buick, and first tilt away steering column on the 1928 Buick. The first four wheel steering system was used on the 1938 Mercedes 170VL, which was a venerable military truck. The highest specific output of any engine was the Dauer 962 LM, which was generally speaking a road version of the 962 that won the 24 hours of Lem Mans twice, World Sports Car Championship in 85′ and 86′, the IMSA GT Championship every year from 1985 to 1988, and the All Japan Sports Prototype Championship from 1985 until 1989. The 2007 Shelby Ultimate Aero TT has the highest amount of horsepower in any vehicle, let alone it just broke the Bugatti Veyrons record, and has the most specific horsepower to weight ratio. The lowest European fuel consumption title holder is the Volkswagen Lupo. The Henney Kilowatt was the first transistor regulated, modern electric vehicle put into production, while the Detroit Electric is often considered the first electric vehicle.

The first hybrid was actually the 1901 Lohner-Porsche, in the beginning of the 1900′s, which had electric motors in the wheels, and an engine creating juice for those engines. If you’d like to argue it wasn’t high production, then the 1904 Auto-Mixte of Belgium was.

Style- It’s subjective but Japanese still win

The car of the Century Award was given to the Ford Model T, announced on December 18th of 1999. From 26 nominees, none of them were manufactured or designed by a Japanese automotive engineer. The finalists, the top 5 vehicles, had no input at all from Japanese technology or designers. Sports Car international, in choosing vehicles from the 1960′s to the present time, has featured Japanese sports cars only five times, out of 60 times. Sports Car International chooses these cars based on performance, design and engineering. The second generation TT has been honored with many awards including the inaugural Drive Car of the Year, Top Gear Coupe of the Year 2006, Fifth Gear Car of the Year 2006, Autobild ‘Most Beautiful Car’ and World Design Car of the Year 2007, as well as being a finalist for World Car of the Year. The designer of the Audi TT, Walter de Silva, picked up an impressive four prizes at the Auto Bild Design Award ceremony not too long ago.
The Japanese are very, very dimly lit in the automotive design world.

“Technology- Japanese win First in dash nav, Vtec, Hybrid tech” – no other vehicle manufacturer has ever advanced technology?

“Style- It’s subjective but Japanese still win” – if it’s subjective then how can they win?

I find it hilarious that all you have left to convinced yourself are a bunch of biased car magazines (which I am pretty sure agree that the imports are too bland hence they lose the ‘style’ category) and resale values of of KBB.

And in your habit of generalizing things, you seem to think that just because one Honda had a good resale value, ALL imports have a good resale value.Well let me tell you that NO imports have better resales than the domestic pickups and SUVs. In addition, many large cars and crossovers from the domestics beat out the imports in resale.

“ALL Toyondas are better than the domestics”? What Toyonda beats the Corvette, the Silverado, the Tahoe, the Suburban, the Enclave, Outlook, Acadia, G8, CTS, Solstice, Sky, and so on. And those are only the ones that K.I.L.L the imports. There are many other cars like the Aura, Malibu, Vue, Astra, and so on that are very competitive to the imports and are better in some ways and worse in others.

I do believe I understand your problem with resales. A LONG time ago when you bought your first new car, you liked it for a while and enjoyed the new car smell while it lasted and then you tried to get a new one. But that depreciation must have hit you so hard that you were forced to keep your car to this day so now you only buy used cars or imports for fear that the domestics havent changed a bit ever since you bought your brand new ’92 Accord. That explain a lot of things: your obsession with resales, you living in the past, and you worshipping imports.

Look up the GM Product Catalog and you will find that the only Buick models are the Lucerne, Lacrosse, and Enclave. I know you want those other ones to be on the list because it would help your argument but…..too bad.