We don’t need an “auto czar”. Just as with every major airline, allow the Big 3 to enter into Chapter 11. This will allow them to restructure and survive. It typically helps the airlines, no reason it shouldn’t help them.

testing – for some reason my posts are not showing

Hmmm. odd that they show now.

I vote JohnnyCanuck the new US Auto Czar as we need to better relations with Canada.; I also “Vote for Pedro” to represent our Mexican neighbors to the south to co-czar with Johnny.
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The travesty is that now the US auto industry is becoming government run, and that is not the principles that this country was founded on. I’ll take my next US vehicle in flat paint with stenciled letter designations on the body to clearly show which model it is.

What the big 3 needs is to be able to get rid of is those blood sucking unions. Unions have outlived their useful life and deserve to burn in hell. That alone will bring them back to profitablity. I doubt Obama will allow that to happen since he’s all for them.

Yikes… the federal government running the auto industry… now there’s something to be afraid of…

Only if you’re coming with me LLLL#3. By the way, is it called the Oval Office because someone named Ford used to be in it?

stick2clutch, we don’t need to get rid of the unions, we need to get rid of the upper management whom creates new GM plants in Russia and not here in Michigan. The oil companies would run the auto companies before government would, oh wait they already do! As much as I love GM, there upper managment and ceos are GMs biggest problem.

THIS IS FROM AP NEWS………

“President-elect Barack Obama is pushing Congress this year to approve as much as $50 billion to save cash-starved U.S. automakers”
“Most of the money would be drawn from the $700 billion financial rescue package Congress passed last month or from newly allocated funds.”
“The president-elect also wants the Federal Reserve to extend emergency loans to General Motors, Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC, ”

DID I NOT SAY THIS WILL HAPPEN, THE BIG 3 ARE GETTING THERE BAIL OUT, AND THE FED. IS GOING TO OVER SEE IT.

JUST WAIT TO SEE WHAT THE UNION ARE GOING TO TRY TO PUSH NEXT,
1., ANOTHER IMPORT TAX ON FOREIGN AUTO MAKERS
2., NO MORE TAX BRAKES FOR AUTO MAKERS THAT DON’T HAVE NUMBER PLANTS SATE SIDE
3., AND NO EXTRA TAX BRAKES FOR AUTO MAKERS THAT DON’T HAVE UNIONS

THE UNIONS HELP IN BIG “BUCK$” TO THE OBAMA CAMPAIGN, AS YOU CAN SEE THERE GETTING THERE MONEY’S WORTH,
“SOME ONE TELL “GM” HEADS WHERE IS THE UNEMPLOYMENT LINE STARTS AT”
“OHooo……. THAT’S RIGHT!…….. THEY ALL MADE MORE THEN $200K THIS YEAR, THEY DON’T QUALIFY, TO BAD, SUCKS TO BE THEM………..

Folks, if you don’t think that unions are causing financial problems, take a look at labor hours on a production line and compare them to Toyota in the US. It costs GM around $73 an hour for union labor, an average of $30 more than Toyota and Nissan. Multiply labor hours by units manufactured – it grossly outweighs upper management pay. You could stop paying upper management today, and it still won’t make a dent in the problem. For every active employee, there are more than three retirees on the payroll. What company can operate like that?

I have it on good information that the new auto-czar will be a LLN regular poster.

Here we go ….
I just hope if there’s an Auto Czar, it’s a person who’s never been to detroit.

187out: It would be prohibitively expensive to ship Michigan-built cars to russia.

I am not opposed to unions, but I’m not sure GM can survive without making changes to its labor situation

the big 3 have a lot of old inefficient factories too (production lines) that require a lot more labor to run and cost a lot more to switch production than to close it. japanese are much more efficient hence they can switch production faster or bring new products to market faster. i think in japan their biggest expense is electricity which is cheaper than hundreds of employee’s salaries. i don’t mind the closing of some of these old barns.

just another random rant/ opinion in where the big three suck compared to the competition

The killer for the Unions and the Big Three is actually health care — the damn pensioners are living too long. I’m not joking about this! Many of the union agreements on retirement, pension etc. were calculated back in the 60s when people lived to 65-70; now those people are living to 75, 85, 90+ and that puts decades of extra charges on the pensions and health care promises the automakers made to the unions. Now, I’m not a cold-hearted bastard; certainly these people put in their 30 years and earned their retirement. But carrying the burden of all those pension-drawers is literall (like HavanaRob said) like having a huge, invisible workforce of employees who don’t actually make cars. Lipitor, Cresta, clot-busting drugs and bypasses means that a lot of average joes and janes can add 15+ years to their life with little or no effort, something that the unions could not have forseen back in the ’70s, their height of power vs. automaker management. I don’t think any sane person would argue that the unions WANT to bankrupt their own workplace, they are backed into a corner just as tight as GM, Ford and Chrysler are.

The Unions have a serious problem with corruption, organized crime and kickbacks; that needs to stop. The auto companies have suffered with idiot executives who were somehow utterly blind to the fact that gas was actually going to get more expensive in the future; that needs to be fixed. But letting them both fall on their faces isn’t the way to go about it.

I will be traveling to Washington DC to see the new auto czar (AC in DC) as my company, Blue Sky- Motors (BS-M), is in need of a bailout. Unlike the others I am only asking for one billion dollars in funds, and would be willing to kickback one million dollars to the AC in DC as a goodwill gesture, plus dinner. My union consists of the one between my wife and I, and lately my union has been acting-up requesting an increase in clothing allowance, but I believe the issue is surmountable. I have a new game-changing vehicle called the Static (designed on paper to compete with the Volt) that zapped rather than zipped, but in theory I have no doubt the world will flock to our showrooms (currently, we use one of our residential garage bays) to purchase the Static when production begins. Where is the office of the AC in DC located so that I can receive my handout?

I don’t think people really understand that, regardless of the reason, GM has basically failed. Now, instead of having to face the reality of that failure, GM is going to be handed a huge chunk of cash with virtually no strings attached.

People are worried that the government is going to somehow ruin GM or ruin some supposedly fundamental American values, but they’re sort of ignoring the fact that GM has already done both of these things. GM will burn through this 25 billion and when it’s gone they’ll be looking for another handout.

Analysts Paint Bleak Picture for GM

procrastinate now,

Would you buy a new car from a bankrupt company? People can fly on a bankrupt airline because their money is only an investment in something immediate: a flight. People buying cars have warranties and service to worry about.

Automakers have gone bankrupt before (REO, Auburn-Cord-Deusenberg), and continued operating. But they rarely survived because people wouldn’t plunk down their hard-earned on what could likely become an orphan.

It would be disasterous for GM is they declared bankruptcy.

Once again, their management in the ’80s and ’90s made bad decisions. But that’s only part of why GM and Ford are hurting so badly. The other side is the unlevel playing field that the state and federal governments have made for the American automakers with their cost structures, and the horrible PR they get for trying to adjust them (i.e., strikes, layoffs, plant closings, etc.).

I’d rather have Uncle Sam set up a “car czar” and give GM and Ford $50B than have to pay that much in entitlements to 1.5M unemployed workers because they got laid off their their companies went under.

the japanese are more efficient and able to produce more cheaply BECAUSE they don’t have unions. It’s not just their pay, the union also controls quality and the amount of work the union workers can do, they ALSO weigh in on design and “dumb it down” making it less appealing to the buyer if they feel their “workers” would have to do too much work to get it down the line.

Unions aren’t just about 70+ dollars an hour they are also about working 5 minutes of the hour, and preventing any real innovation or exuberance in the workforce. If the unions had been dissolved 10 years ago with the Big3 just getting mirror deals with labor in the foreign makes’ plants in the US you’d see the big 3 on top in every category.

Once again, I share the same sentiments as LLLLNo.3.

My only question is… can we just stop with the “Czar” of this and the “Czar” of that? Especially when “The Big Cheese,” “Grand Poobah,” and “Godfather” still go unused?

@inline6, your points are valid, but at least unemployment, retirement benefits, etc. have a caps to their terms, the car companies could bleed the US taxpayer to death for generations to come (not to mention the war debt that has yet to be addressed). The changes would have to be so drastic for the car companies that the shock alone might kill them at this point. Then there is the hurdle of regaining consumer confidence to buy from them again—this takes time, and time is what the US car companies no longer have. Matters are tough all around.

02WRXPSM is right about the crippling cost of healthcare for these retired union workers who selfishly live well into their 90’s. I’m a fan of the 3 generation rule, where no family is allowed more than 3 generations alive at once. Let the elderly say hello to their great-grandchildren when they’re born, then it’s off to the crematorium! It solves a lot more problems than just GM’s financial situation.

inline6 also had a good point about people not wanting “orphaned” cars that won’t be supported from companies that consumers feel might go bankrupt.

To sum up, I suggest we all turn our backs on orphans and the elderly and let them fend for themselves

@inline6, as Lariat said, your comment is valid. But, C 11 is not necessarily a death sentence. The main similarity that the airlines and the Big 3 have in common is something that is no longer necessary: unions. Without a major restructuring, those parasites will continue to bleed the companies dry. And yes, the waste of useful life management needs to be kicked to the curb, as well.

I also see one of the major problems as wall streets (shareholders) constant demands for greater and greater profits, simply making a constant profit year in year out is not enough to ensure a steady share price, it has to be constant growth or nothing.
I’m only an engineer so cannot see the point of having a high share price, the money that is paid for shares no longer go’s to the company in question, the shareholders are not liable for any of that companies costs or responsibilities, yet constantly demand profit gains.
Which to a greater or lesser extent is one of the reasons the big three are busy setting up in every third world country they can, to cut costs (Increase profits).
A countries financial system is nothing more than a circle, you need people earning money to buy the products that allows the companies that make the products to pay the people that make said products and so on and so forth.
If in the quest for greater and greater profits you remove the workforce from the circle you all of a sudden don’t have anyone to buy the products that you are making so much more cheaply somewhere else.
If anyone thinks the housing market is going to recover any time soon wait until a couple of hundred thousand auto workers suddenly don’t have pay checks any more…..

TO ALL THE IDIOTS OUT THERE WHO THINK TOYOTA DOESN’T HAVE A UNION, YOU DON’T JACK ABOUT AUTO NEWS, BECAUSE THE NUMMI PLANT IN FREMONT, CA IS UNION!

02WRXPSM…… YOU HAVE SPOKEN THE WORD OF TRUTH… A MAN BROTHER…

MOSTLY EVERY ONE HAS A VALID POINT, THE UNIONS ARE BACK AND STRINGER THEN EVER, THEY ARE PUSHING FOR THE “BIG 3″ TO STAY A FLOAT BUT ALSO TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF A OPENING DOOR, WE ALL KNOW THAT THE UNIONS ARE TO TAKE SOME OF THE BLAME, AND THE CUTTING COST, SHORT CUT’S THAT THE AUTO MAKERS HAVE MADE IN ORDER TO MAKE A BUCK, IS ALSO TO BLAME, WE ALL KNOW THAT THE FED. IS GOING TO BAIL OUT THE BIG 3, AND THE UNIONS WILL TRY TO GIT MORE IN TO THE POLITICS IN ORDER TO MAKE FOREIGN AUTO MAKER WORK WITH THE UNIONS, WITH THE ECONOMY AT IT’S BRAKING POINT DON’T BE SURPRISE TO WHAT HAS YET TO COME….

The 90s great economy debunks all your crap about unions, healthcare and japanese building better cars.
All of you are obviously too you young to remeber the 90’s when GM, Ford and Chrysler were all ahead of Toyota and the japanese auto industry.

IT’S THE ECONOMY STUPID!!!!!!!!!

howsmydriving- its need more oil… thats where he has been

If you have never worked in a union, you don’t have the right to bash them! Thats like a chickenhawk, someone when it was there time to go to war(like nam) they were chicken and dodged the draft, now they come back 30+ years later and there hawks, and want to kick butt and rubber stamp the Iraq war.

murderedout: the NUMMI plant is partly-owned by GM – that’s why they have a union.

I say: let the industry fail to BK, and bust the unions. It’s an antiquated organizaion set up in the middle of the Industrial Revolution that protected employees from inadequate safety provisions and below-par working conditions. Now, we have OSHA and the Labor laws, so the unions have no more relevance.

Federal Deficit Balloons On Bailout Costs

DaSpyda: It’s called a JOINT VENTURE! Both ways, it’s still union!

Pull all the troops out of the useless Iraq and Afghan wars, and stop giving out foreign aid to other countries. We can bail out other countries and AIG( which is now taking the taxpayers money and giving blank checks to CEOS who take 100,000 dollar vacations), but we can’t bail out America’s bread and butter of the economy, the auto industry? And you blame unions, healthcare, and quality issues and effeciency?

DaSpyder: Do you work, or have you ever worked in a Union? If you let the auto industry fail, not only will there be over 3 million jobs lost, there will be a global depression. How do i know this? HISTORY!

NO ONE IS BASHING THE UNIONS, IT IS ONLY THERE FOR ALL TO SEE THAT THEY ARE THE ONE’S PUSHING MORE FOR THE BIG 3 TO GET FEDERAL AID. NO BIG 3, NO UNION FOR THE AMERICAN AUTO INDUSTRY,

THE COMMENTS I POSTED ARE JUST SOME OF THE THINGS THAT “THE UNION HEADS” HAVE LOBBY IN THE PAST, AND WITH THE CURRENT ECONOMY AT IT’S BRAKING POINT, WE NEED SECURITY IN OUR NATIONS BIGGEST INDUSTRY, “THE BIG 3″

BUT YOU HAVE TO ADMITTED THAT THE UNION HEADS CAN BE WORST THE AUTO MAKERS THEM SELF’S, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT $50 BILLION OF OUR TAX MONEY, TRUE MOST LIKELY FORM THE $700 BILLION FOR THE BANKS

THE POINT IS THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO PAY FOR IT, AND GREED, B.S. RED TAPE AND LOST OF DIRECTION FOR “LIVING IN THE MOMENT” AND NOT LOOKING FORWARD IS WHAT MADE THE BUBBLE BURST, AND WE ALL ARE GOING TO PAY FOR IT, IT ALL COMES FULL CIRCLE….

I blame the economy and the wars that are draining the economy. Happened in WW2, and the auto industry went to crap. History repeats itself. WAKE UP PPL, GM isn’t the only auto industry that is in a downward spiral, all of them are. So if you use healthcare, unions or quality, as your theory, to why they are down, it does nothing to help your arguement.

The only people who are going to bail them out is the rich taxpayer! Unless any of you are rich, you can’t cry about the bailout and say they are using your taxmoney. Yes it does come around full circle yard dog, because the rich who get taxcuts, then buy foreign cars, also ship American jobs over seas, to avoid paying taxes, are now getting stiffed with the bill and I LOVE IT!

If you argue “well Toyota didn’t ask for a bailout” all I have to say to that is, don’t speak too soon!!!

MURDEREDOUT…..

DUDE WE ALL WANT FREE MONEY, UP-CORES, TOYOTA, NISSAN, AND EVEN SOME EURO ARE GOING TO ASK FOR CA$H, BUT THE BIG 3 WILL BE FIRST TO GET IT, AND IF THE OTHERS WANT SOME, THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GIVE IN TO THE “NEW SYSTEM” YA…. WE ARE GOING TO PAY FOR IT BUT THE UNIONS ARE GOING TO ENJOY IT THE MOST…..

Just because the companies go bankrupt doesn’t mean the factories will shut down and “millions” will be out of work.

Look at what the airlines did, years ago…

Stop drinking the kool-aid – or look into what happens when a large company declares bankruptcy. It doesn’t always mean the company goes under as there are TWO different types of BK: Chapter 7 (liquidation) and Chapter 13 (reorganization). BK allows companies to modify existing agreements that are contributing to the financial crisis – ie., unions. Factories will still make cars, people will still be employed – but at far more realistic wage scales. I mean, $70 an hour, plus “bennies” to work a dang machine???

I don’t have to work for a union to understand the so-called “benefits”. After all, the unions have plenty of HISTORY of blood-sucking companies dry.

And, BTW, look around; there’s already a deep world-wide recession.

Sorry, that was Chapter 11 Reorganization: http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/13/news/companies/gm_bankruptcy/index.htm?cnn=yes

I’ll be holding a press conference next week from Camp David………
DrFill

187out:

The auto industry just changed to war-implements production during WWII, those companies were still healthy.

jackjimturkey:

If the auto industry was still healthy during WWII , there wouldn’t have been a Great Depression!

“we are going to pay for it” -yard dog, yeah only we the rich people will pay for it, not me.

DaSpyda were did you come up with 70$ an hour? Right there tells me you do not understand the Union. You do have to work for a union to understand a union! The Unions are the ones that saved people from making low slave wages as they do in the southern states.

I vote for Roger Penske
I also vote for him to take over GM.
Rick Wagoner must go.

How ’bout this… GM becomes a holding company, and spins Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac, Buick, Hummer, GMC, and Saab off into independent companies (in which they keep some equity). One or more of these individual companies will fail, but at least the strongest won’t be brought down by the weakest.

FYI the Nummi plant is half GM it has to be union