I don’t like this.

oh great… more crappy gas

Vehicles that are equppied with E-85, get WORSE fuel economy than standard NON-E85 vehicles. By raising the level to E-15 or something, u can expect the MPG drop a little…..

Looks like we’re stuck with unleaded regular gas for rest of our lives!!!

Hey Congress! I have an idea on what you can do with these leftover corn cobs!

“Although most industry experts universally agree that corn-based fuels are not the answer to our nation’s energy dilemma, the Environmental Protection Agency is currently considering a measure that would require a significant bump in ethanol usage.”

That’s our government at work folks, ain’t ya proud?

Ethanol is corrosive… And can damage engines not designed to run it… Ever wonder why they have specially designed E85 vehicles? Because normal car engines would be damaged if they ran 85% ethanol!

so is it really a democracy when a corporate lobby is powerful enough to institute legislation mandating the expanded use of their product?

Wake up and smell the coffee. The issue is not MPG, the issue is that we are making countries like Russia, Venezuela, and all of the middle east rich. Countries that do not share the same values that we do. The cold war was won because we were able to outspend the Soviet Union. Now all of the above counties are rich and we are a 3rd world country.

^No, it just means that our elected officials are a bunch of whores.

(that was a reply to “leftwingagenda”

pampanga prince- Let me put it this way. As already pointed out, fuel economy decreases some as more ethanol is used. When using E85, it’s approximately a 10-20% decrease. So with E15 expect a small drop of a few percent in your vehicles fuel economy. So you’ll go through that tank of E85 quicker, and in the end only consume a SLIGHT amount less of petrol.

@ Pampanga Prince, you are absolutely correct that this move isn’t motivated to get us better fuel economy, but instead to burn something that comes out of US soil rather than Arab deserts.

The problem is however, that a much more meaningful impact could be made a lot sooner by simply switching to diesel fuel. If 1/3 of americans drove diesel powered cars, we would eliminate the entire amount of oil that we import from Saudi Arabia… and that doesn’t even take into account what we could do with Bio-diesel

Yeah were a third world country!! Travel much???????

I too am very frustrated that we don’t have diesel here. The manufacturers have a “wait and see” attitude to make sure a market exists in the U.S., but how can we create a market if more companies don’t offer diesels? Especially the Japanese. I do love the Audi commercial. I am open to all alternatives to gasoline.

I noticed the other day when I filled up my new Ranger for the first time that there was a No E85 symbol right on the gas cap. It’s already us vs. them.

The EPA is completely misinformed and probably retarded. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was a bunch of monkeys throwing staplers at a bunch of options stuck onto corkboard with chewing gum.

^huh? Johnny, I’m following you on twitter only because I’ve seen you post on here, lol

of course the US won’t clearly let diesels take over! If they did, car sales from imports and euros would destroy domestic car sales!!!!!

Ethanol SUCKS!!!!!

Great…the radicals at the EPA are going to give us even ****tier gas. The corn industry can’t be blamed for wanting higher demand; if this goes through the clowns in D.C. are entirely to blame.

“Not surprisingly, corn-producing states are supporting the legislation, arguing the measure will boost the U.S. economy and create thousands of new jobs.” BULLS@@T it takes less than 30 people to manage a farm of 10k acres with modern equipment. the only thing this kind of legislation is good for is making the corn farmers the new “oil barons”. farmers arent going to hire more people to handle what they already do just fine.

Let’s face it, this is just the work of a bunch of lobbyist trying to make more money for themselves and corn growers. And what is the outcome? Worst fuel economy. As much pollution or more then regular gas due to the processing of ethanol and lower mpg. Higher corn and grain prices as the supply is used for fuel rather then food. Higher corn and grain prices mean higher meat and milk prices because it then cost more to feed the livestock. So does ethanol make sense? NO! But everyone is out to take as much money as they can from you.

The whole reducing foreign dependence on oil story is just cover for making more money for farmers, who already get WAY too much money from us. How much oil does anyone really think we’re going to replace by using corn based ethanol? All it does is drive up food prices…

Arena, I think you answered correctly to Pampanga Prince, too. That answer will work for just about any question. Check it out:

“Do the new CAFE standards mean we will be buying smaller cars?”
“No, it just means that our elected officials are a bunch of whores.”

“Does the Medicare problem mean the destruction of our country?”
“No, it just means that our elected officials are a bunch of whores.”

“How’s that peanut butter sandwich?”
“Our elected officials are a bunch of whores.”

See if you can come up with your own questions for that answer. It’s a great answer to almost any question.

“What is the meaning of life?”
“Our elected officials are a bunch of whores.”

Ah, the wisdom.

Doesn’t this contradict the efforts to increase fuel economy? My metro area mandates E10 as a winter blend. Everyone I’ve spoke to consistently lose 5 – 10% fuel economy with the E10, not to mention a slight loss in performance. Yep, it’s just about lobbyists. Too bad there’s no way to use them as fuel. Just kidding. Beside, the carbon sludge that they would turn into would just tar up our engines anyway.

Carbon/gas tax, more ethanol and diesel, and a progressive vehicle tax based on weight and engine displacement would get Americans out of their trucks and lardy SUVs and sedans and into lighter fuel efficient vehicles. And end dependence on hellholes like Saudi, Iran, Venezuela, Nigeria for oil. Get with it, Greatest Country On Earth.

The only way I would ever be willing to concede to a mileage based/road usage tax is if another tax was to concede. Of course, that would never happen, because of the greed that exists in Washington. Sorry, but we’re already overtaxed, and about to be rapped up the bumhole if some planned taxes come through.

jayjc, come live up here. We’re bent over so far you can use our butts for bike racks.

@johnny
That is not a pretty mental image

@mtzo
Oil is fungible – anything we manage to not use just makes it cheaper for others and supply and demand means there will be an offsetting increase in consumption somewhere else. At best a neutral outcome. Emulating Europe is not desirable – if the US grows at 2.5% and the EU grows at 2% for 100 years – our economy will be more than 50% bigger than the EU. Currently the US GDP is 9.5% less than the EU.

Politicians are whores with a next election time horizon.

Wow when will the gov ever learn. They obviously know nothing about automobiles. First cash for perfectly good cars to get destroyed and now they want to jump on e15 without even thinking if that will cause a problem. Its a good thing they think at least before they decide to go to war, oh wait nevermind lol.

@ LEFT LANE NEWS; Correction IT’S $786 MILLION FOR BIOFUEL RESEARCH NOT BILLION. IT HAPPENS, KEEP THE GOOD ARTICLES COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

beatusmongous, what’s the matter, the truth hurting your Congressional demigods? Lobbyists have 0 power but a lot of influence because Congress is a whore house.

Gotta disagree with most of you.

WE need to get rid of oil usage from overseas asap. Obviously electrics are both too expensive and do not have the range needed. Hybrids are a step in the right direction but still too expensive for prime time. The extended range is the next step but again too expensive for prime time. Diesel is a possibility but AGAIN too expensive for prime time with the onerous emission requirements.

We as Americans with gas under $3 refuse to drive less or buy smaller cars. So what else is left?

Ethonal is the only short term solution. And it will not be coming from corn in the mid term. A much better solution is to use our garbage and junk to make it. It is actually cheaper than making it from corn and is already proven. Just need to have a market for it and forcing E15 or E20 would do it.

“patented bacteria is able to turn most forms of garbage into ethanol at cost of about $1 per gallon — less than half the current cost. The still-experimental fermentation process is capable of turning feedstocks such as municipal wastes, old tires, wood chips and even corn stalks into ethanol fuel”

http://autos.canada.com/autoshow2008/story.html?id=65a17afb-f4fc-44ac-99bc-fdd4ecb98292

BUT with all that we cannot just raise to E15 until it is tested and most likely it will take years to change over all the motors (including mowers, etc). So the only solution is to offer both E10 and E20 at the pumps with the SAME price (MPG weighted). How we charge the same price is up to someone else.

i wonder how much money is coming from the oil lobbyist on this ethanol issue. why are people falling for these non-issues, when deep down everyone knows its the oil company’s behind this issue. 5% increase in ethanol = 5% decrease in profits for the oil company’s. so exxon will make $1.6 billion instead of $1.65 billion, poor exxon, and bp exects.

carstuff,
How about we fukin use DIESEL!!! We can make it here! It’s just that the us makes no good diesel vehicles for the average user, while most other foreign auto manufacturers have plenty of diesels that would RUIN the US auto industry! The day ethanol becomes standard will be the day I realize that the Prius Kicks ASS!

Live Green, Go Yellow.

GM is a leader in E-85 capable vehicles. I am completely for this because all the imports who don’t have E-85 capable vehicles will be up sh1ts creek. It will speel the end for imports, excluding diesels. The guys around here are wearing their “30″ buttons, maybe they chould be wearing “60″ buttons instead if this passes!

GM. AN American Revolution

@ Pampanga Prince

“Now all of the above counties are rich and we are a 3rd world country.”

Pampanga has always been part of a 3rd world country…and all of the above countries were always rich, ever since.

Don’t forget to drain your tanks if you won’t be using the motor for a month, this **** breaks down quick.

I bet Sta-Bil is voting for E15.

Need more oil for GM – “30″ must stand for the for the number of employees left at the company. Kind of scary, but OK.

Need more oil for GM – Forgot to add. GM may be a “leader” in E85 vehicles, however they seem to have abandoned the trend. Currently, not including the pickup trucks, they only E85 cars at GM are the Monte Carlo and Impala with the 3.1V6. GM only used made E85 available on pushrod driven cars which are being phased out very quickly. Additionally, on those two cars, fuel economy drops 25% when run on E85 because the cars are tuned for gasoline (due to availablility). Facts trump rants.

(Ooo. Sorry for my grammar. LLN could use some online text editiing software.)

This is getting stupid and the corn-producing states need to be kept in check ASAP.

Everybody involved in ethanol research agrees that corn-based ethanol is basically the bastard child of bad and expensive farming subsidies and early technological innovation. Until we have another way that’s energy efficient to produce ethanol, like switch grass, hemp or sugar cane (look at Brazil, they’re doing it right), then nothing should be done to our gas.

Plus it limits the performances of our cars and reduces our gas-mileage, so please tell me where the pro lays…

Hey Needs More Penis- of all the words to get wrong you had to mis-spell the word “spell”. No gold star for you today. Now take your Bob Lutz pictures and go touch yourself in the corner..

FORD – we dont need Goverment Money

i agree that we need an edit function on our comments i hate posting a great pithy rant just to see i misspelled “the” somewhere in there…

i think the EPA bashing here is myopic, though…as much as you want to believe any green-minded agency is out to destroy your life, you missed the point of the article…congress is mandating more ethanol usage, and congress is under the sway of the corn industry…this is a lobbyist driven movement…the EPA, in this case, is just the messenger…the real head vampires are the guys paid by the corn industry (lobbyists) to get legislation pushed through congress…

I’d have to agree with what most people are saying on here and what I’m saying has probably already be said. Ethanol is not the way to go. Lets look at it from a different view. Lets take massive areas which could be used to produce food for people and use that land to “grow” fuel that will decrease our MPG. If you think that increasing Ethanol in our fuel will decrease the dependance on foreign oil you are sadly missinformed. It would most likely increase our dependance on oil, lower MPG means for time at the pump, which in turn means for money going to foreign oil producing countries.
And 2wheeled, you are correct about the corrosive properties of ethanol based fuels. Though its only harmful to rubbers and plastics, so gaskets etc.. would be effected the most. I don’t feel like having all my engine gaskets replaced every year or so just because my fuel is eating away at them.

Id, the reason the marques do not sell hardy any mainstream diesels here is because they are too expensive. Emission rules and the diesel itself adds too much cost for high volume. Saying you want it does not make it so.

And while we make it here the oil still comes mostly from overseas.

Not sure how the “US industry” not having good diesels here has anything to do with all the other marques not bringing over their diesels. IT IS THE COST that keeps all of them from selling here.

does congress ever consider sugarcane, or soybeans? these are both crops that can be grown in huge quantities WITHOUT placing a great shortage on food and driving up prices. Sugarcane is the way to go, but congress is just too slow.

ooo, that rhymes!

If the concept of E10 and now E15 is to reduce usage of fossil fuels, but in turn it lowers MPG and you burn more gallons of gas, doesnt that mean in the end you burn just as much fossil fuels and it’s benifits are completely mute? Add in the deterioration of your engine components and it becomes very transparent that this is simply lobbying at its finest….

Using corn for fuel is an INSANE idea. I’d like to shoot the guy who came up with it.

You want to use more ethanol… here’s what will happen.

Gas companies start buying corn from farmers to turn into fuel… which means the price of anything that uses corn directly or indirectly is going to go up. Corn meal, corn syrup, corn oil, corn fed beef and chicken, milk and eggs, any product that is made with milk and eggs… you see where this is going?

We have technology today that could make cars run off of water… but we are smart enough to know better. There is only so much water to go around… and I pay $1.50 for a 20oz bottle of it all ready, what happens when people start pumping millions of gallons of it into their cars.

There was a logical reason that gasoline was chosen as a motor fuel 100 years ago. It has a high energy potential, is (relatively) abundant, and isn’t really useful for any other purpose.

The only reason that people are pushing so hard to get off of petroleum products is because the vast majority of petroleum is controlled by countries who aren’t exactly friendly towards the US or its allies. Thus we see the foolishness of having your economy and livelihood completely dependent on sources and factors outside of your own control.

Not much has change in the minds of the out spoken… Funny how one’s opinion is part only a extension of one’s vasts knowledge of their self’s little world.

The truth is that Corn-Gas is widely accepted in 3rd world country’s. And that if they with their limited resources can adapt to greener means… Why not the U.S., well we all know the answer to that question BIG OIL, money talks and everyone has something to say… One thing for sure is that the U.S. Military is the Largest, THE LARGEST consumer of Petrol-Fuel in the WORLD…

Unless Federal and Local Governments make the switch them self to Cleaner Burning Fuel, it’s all B.S.

With the vasts selection of vehicles on the market and the developing of Cleaner-Fuel rising. Corn-Fuel, Bio-Diesel, alternate mixtures of Jet-Fuel, it’s very possible that in the next 2 years a switch can be made. It should not be a hard to do…

But like I said, one’s opinion is only a extension of one’s vasts knowledge of their world…

Raineman, the world consists of over 70% water, I think there might be just a little bit more water to go around than there is fossil fuels.

Plus its been raining for a couple of days where I am, if there was an easy and affordable way of converting water into liquid hydrogen people could just collect rain water, convert it to hydrogen and fuel there automobile. Two major problems with this scenario right now though. The Government is to easily influenced by outside sources (oil companies etc) that they will not seek other means for fuel. As well liquid hydrogen is a little more volatile than petrol so theres that risk. But BMW has been producing 7 series over in Europe that can run on both conventional fuel and liquid hydrogen. It is possible for the automotive industry to stop relying on petrol based fuel but why would they? If anyone has seen the documentary “who killed the electric car?” will know that automotive manufactures do not want to stop using petrol. GM scrapped there EV project to go with the gas guzzling Hummer H2. Auto Manufacturers do not care about alternative fuel/Hybrid/Electric vehicles as they lead us to believe.

ic3m4n
there is a lot of water in the world, but most of it is SALTWATER, hard to purify, and not profitable.

ic3m4n
There is a lot of water in the world, but most of it is SALTWATER, hard to purify, and not profitable. So we should use things that can help our country, like sugarcane and soy beans.

satwater purification is still cheaper than oil production. But like I said its not a likely option until we can find a save, chear and reliable way to produce hydrogen from water.

If the democrats cared about making terrorist countries rich from oil they would let us drill here. But they use emissions to back their stupid idea. Did they hear? CARB HAS RECENTLY PUBLISHED THAT ETHANOL POLLUTES MORE THAN GAS!!!

Raineman,

Sending money to farmers is much better than sending money to muslim terrorists that want to kiil you. You’re almost contradicting yourself.

That is the other thing… The US is sitting on its oil waiting on everyone else to run out so that they can charge anything they want for it. Oh, and the US currently imports most of its oil from Canada; I believe it is currently something like over 50%. And with all the oil the US is importing, they are then turning around and re-exporting part of it. What a mess!

Oil production pays for itself. Sure everyone’s noticed that those are easily the biggest companies on the globe right now. Saltwater purification is difficult, and has been noted since looking at drinking water sources. There is a lot more in the water than just salt(no duh).

I really don’t see how producing ethanol will do anything beside make more work for farms. Having to clear those wild, natural fields to plant it with their diesel powered tractors….then harvest it with more diesel power. I don’t quite understand why people can’t accept the fact it takes energy to make energy. Hydrogen is no different. In order to get all that hydrogen, it does take power. And where does most of that power come from? Coal. Natural gas. Nuclear power. Unless you actually pay for the more expensive renewable energy.

The reason we have an oil infrastructure is because it is energy that is readily available. The only thing that costs oil companies is exploration. And wouldn’t you know, we keep finding more. Its not as finite as people believe it to be.

As for countries not being friendly with us…I can’t believe you think everyone in the UAE or Saudi or Angola is a terrorist. They may get contributions from corrupt officials, but they don’t control the oil. Governments control the oil! And I can easily say that must make “Big Oil” some of the most charismatic folks to talk governments into selling their resources to the world. And irc, we don’t have many contracts with Iraq. Before the last war, most of them were with Total (French). They probably resumed those contracts after the Iraqi parliament was established, but I don’t follow that news. If it still worries you that your funding terrorism for some reason, just buy Conoco (not that is matters much, all oil ends up in the same refinery pretty much).

Even when we exhaust oil in the possible centuries it would take, the lack of gas or diesel would be the last of your worries. It will be global anarchy. Then another stone age when the fighting is over. Or bronze age if things are favorable.

For ethanol, I feel sorry for the scientists that have been ridiculed for siding against the environmentalists on this one. Everything else has already been said one way or another.

I guess Rational Thinker didn’t find my comment very funny. Oh, well, you can’t please ‘em all.

I am with Raineman

Keep it at petroleum. There is a reason it is used, like he said. Using corn throws the prices of all its products way up. It hurts the average man who then can’t afford the expensive ethanol. Then prices have to go up for that to counteract the lack of sale. Then include lower mpg and less is sold. Etc.

We burn petroleum because we can’t eat it.

ZL-1
I see what you are saying… but the major problem is at the rate the world is producing oil its not going to take centuries to run out of fossil fuels, its extremely unlikely that it’ll ever happen in our life time but it could easily happen in my childrens lifetime.

In an ideal world the energy required for hydrogen production would come from other renewable energy sources i.e solar hydro-electric, wind. But again those areas aren’t being invested in nearly as much as they should be.

What is needed is a fuel source thats value is close to or greater than that of fossil fuels. Ethanol isn’t the answer when it takes almost twice the amount to get the same amount of energy from fossil fuels.

Also its not entirely about running out of fossil fuels, we need a fuel source that doesn’t pollute our environment as much as fossil fuels

We have more to worry about methane than CO2(20 times more potent). Its a little complicated(to me), but between diffusion and density of the air, CO2 eventually falls to the earth and is used in all sorts of natural processes like photosynthesis and its in many rocks to form compounds like calcium carbonate, which we use every day in environmentally safe products.

As for the amount of oil, I don’t even think our children will have issues. I myself am not a geologist, but I grew up with one, work for many, and even my father-in-law is a geophysicist. I know no one would care for details, but the way businesses work is that they are only willing to scale with what is needed at the time plus 6 months. We have tankers that sit offshore that are loaded, just waiting for when the price is right to sell. And they will sit out there for months, even making an artificial shortage if they have to just to sell. If you are looking at the supply as to what we are drilling right now, then you have to look 6 months ahead to see the reaction to the demand(how long it takes to increase production, really). If you look at supply as to how large the reservoirs are…then I can’t help you. Shell doesn’t want BP to see its cards. Chevron doesn’t want Marathon to see its cards. Thats the reason why everyone thinks we’re going to run out, but its just because they are guessing how much we have made compared to how much we are developing.

Now this is just my scope of things since I don’t work for anyone as big as Core Lab or Weatherford (not that many here know who they are anyway), but Nigeria was the talk of the town in the 90s, and now it looks like Angola. But that doesn’t mean Nigeria stopped. It just stopped developing. The wells there are still producing. And its not just offshore stuff. We keep drilling into new reservoirs in places like Kazakhstan. Even Oklahoma is still building wells into fields that still have life in them. Again, not saying I know everything, but everything I do know says we’re fine economically. Its the politicians I worry about, hehe.

Demand will drop off of in countries like China where the population is getting ready to make a sharp decline in the next two generations. Japan will be even worse, but then their demand is nowhere near as high.

As a side note, we have plenty invested in wind. They’ve ruined my uncle’s “sky as far as you can see” horizon. Hydro electric we need to be careful with since it can effect coastal and river ecologies. I now wish I wrote down the show, but there was a state(east coast, I think) that tried installing three HE generators, and they became more trouble than help. One was always inoperable and then discovered that they were sucking in fish, either killing or injuring them. This was just a small scale experiment to see if it would be okay to implement dozens, and it was decided that they couldn’t continue. Solar would be a great idea for small areas(already used on many houses to save on a/c costs). On a large scale, you would need a huge amount of real estate. Even sending up solar satellites would be impractical on a large scale because of how much would be lost in the atmosphere. And for small scale it is too expensive to implement. Cars are simply not large enough to put enough panels on them for highway driving. This was a pretty big side note….

Live Green, GO Yellow.

GM. AN American Revolution