But I think the biggest problem with the PT Cruiser is that it’s a Chrysler, which can carry the connotation as a bad car. The sad part is that Chrysler has been living up to their name rather well.

The Vibe may be alien to Buick’s market image, but the car could be redone inside and out to offer Buick a smaller, more fuel-efficient upscale car. With impending CAFE regs, Buick will need something this size. They’ll probably get younger buyers that way, too.

I enjoy the disocurse, too. And our hopes of GM finding success through better the streamlining and supporting of its divisions are the same. As far as I’m concerned, Pontiac can go, and so can Saturn. Opel (hell, if they started from scratch, it wouldn’t have to be the Opel name…it could be Vauxhall or Holden, if they wanted) can come over. I wouldn’t mind, personally.
I just think that there’d be blowback for GM killing two American-branded divisions, only to bring a Euro-branded division over to replace them. And it would take a lot more time and money to get people to shop it than a brand that’s already established and just needs to educate the buyer a little better as to the changes it’s made and what it now offers.

I still think GM could more effectively target import oriented shoppers with Opel than Saturn. Opel has almost no market identity and possesses European origins that GM could exploit to appeal to a portion of the market who avoids domestic products like the plague. Under Opel, the products wouldn’t need to be diluted/decontented/altered from their Euro counterparts like they do when they need to fit in with Saturn’s limited MSRP range (despite GM’s misguided but well intended efforts, Saturn is still perceived as a value brand instead of an upscale Euro sourced brand). If GM wants to continue to spend money to support a brand that essentially cannibalizes Chevy’s sales, it will stick with Saturn. If GM wants to establish a brand that they could effectively utilize to attract import shoppers and increase market share, then they will go with Opel.

I also think the Vibe should be given to Chevy. As attractive as the HHR is, I don’t think its retro styling appeals to everyone. The Vibe could serve Chevy (the corporation’s high profile affordable brand) well as a more contemporary counterpart to the HHR. I don’t think it should be given to Saturn because it competes with the Astra. I also think it is too out of step with Buick’s image and status to be included in that division’s lineup.

Although we don’t totally agree, I did enjoy exchanging ideas and counterpoints with you. Ultimately, I hope GM can figure out how to streamline their U.S. operations and properly position their divisions to target different portions of the market.

2. Caprice was a Chevrolet not a Buick.

1) The Solstice handily outsells the Sky
2) The Vibe couldn’t go to Chevrolet because it’d compete with the HHR (so give it to Buick or Saturn)

I don’t think GM’s got the werewithal to truly transform the Pontiac brand. It is far too damaged by cars like the Firebird, Fiero, T1000, Sunbird/Sunfire, and Grand Am to get really any respect from anyone. And if Pontiac’s going to get the sales numbers GM’s expected in the past, it’s got to give the brand the same kinds of vehicles that Chevy sells.

I think the Saturn transformation will be far more effective given a little time. And the LAST thing GM needs is to ditch two known commodities for a division that hasn’t been here since 1979, didn’t have great connotations then, and would require tens of millions of dollars year after year, at first, in advertizing to educate buyers. Nah, Saturn’s already trying to do that with its Aura and Outlook.

You’re right, though. I do think Pontiac is the weakest link in the GM chain, and its cars either need to go to Chevrolet (G8, G6 coupe/convertible, Solstice), Saturn (Vibe), Buick (G8-based Caprice), or GMC (Torrent) and the division should be folded. At least one-third of Buick’s line is the hot-selling and quite fantastic Enclave. That’s SOMETHING to build on. Otherwise, continue to expect to see half-assed attempts at reviving the brand in the future, and a continue sales malaise for the division.

But to fold Pontiac and Saturn into Opel? Nah. That’ll create more problems than it solves.

For example, would the Pontiac G8 ST do any better or worse in the market if it was badged as a Chevy El Camino instead? Probably not. In fact, it might sell better given the El Camino’s somewhat iconic status with many Americans. The G8 would have made a great Impala flagship sedan for Chevrolet and probably would have sold better given Chevrolet’s larger dealer network and marketing budget (It would also have prevented the current overlap situation between the 2008 Malibu and current FWD W-body Impala in Chevy’s lineup; the W-body Impala could have been relegated to fleet sales as the “Impala Classic”). The Vibe would sell just as well if it were badged as a Chevy. The G5, Torrent, and Canadian G3/Wave are just rebadged Chevy clone products that could be discontinued and no one would really notice. The G6 sedan is overshadowed by the Malibu and Aura. The G6 coupe would have made a nice Chevy Monte Carlo (much better than the bloated and disfigured last gen W-body version). The G6 convertible could be replaced by a “TwinTop” coupe version of the Insignia if GM was smart enough to develop one and offer it in the U.S. The Sky overlaps and outsells the Solstice; wouldn’t a luxury retractable hardtop roadster be a better way to utilize this platform as well as give Cadillac a more affordable and fuel efficient alternative to the XLR?

I appreciate Pontiac’s history and people’s fond memories of its past. I know many people would be upset if the division were discontinued, but it really doesn’t make sound business sense for GM to continue to support it. Chevy serves the same purpose as Pontiac (straddling the affordable and performance segments) and does it much more effectively than Pontiac. It seems like GM could more efficiently cover this portion of the market by focusing the corporation’s limited resources on providing the best products and marketing to support the corporation’s high profile (and global) volume division (Chevrolet).

Overall, I think GM has an effective weapon in its arsenal to target import customers and gain back some market share without overlapping or competing directly with Chevrolet. That weapon is Opel. I don’t think Saturn or Pontiac can successfully do this because both brands have too much baggage in the market. Both Saturn and Pontiac should be folded into Opel. The brand’s next generation of products would be perfect vehicles to attract import shoppers (starting with the Insignia) and the brand could be molded and marketed to ensure that it appeals to this portion of the market.

I’
m not usre “G8 ST” was popoular at all.

El Camino was a good name. I don’t no Y a pontiac can’t have it, chevy us mnot bringing it back. Duz any1 do malibu conversions?

not lame!
yes, MPG will ink or wswim this vehicle.

Th Holden Commodore Ute is GR8

I want one in hot pink. Maybe two-toned with orancge

If they can afford a toy, there R better choices out there, but do those ecvaq what the el camino edoes/

They should bring the sport wagon to america. and that epsilon II spourt tourer.

, it’s not a stupid idea

this is not a piece o’ junk

Toyota isn’t an option 4 any1 w/ smarts
the SSR was cool.

While extended-cab pickups started appearing toward the end of the ’70s, it is interesting to note that truck/SUV sales exploded in the 1970s. Jeep sold 30,000 vehicles in 1970. By ‘79, they were selling 230,000.

The ’70s was the first decade of the “active lifestyle youth” as a marketing segment. That’s why trucks and SUVs (hell, even station wagons and vans) got all sorts of sporty packages in the ’70s. Take the Jeep J10 Honcho, for instance.

The only thing that makes it seem like the SUV craze started in the late ’80s was the ‘79-80 energy crisis/recession. Trucks were selling out to the bare walls until then, which is what prompted AMC, Audi, and Subaru to make the first “crossovers”, the AWD AMC Eagles, Audi Quattros, and Subaru 1600s. The energy crisis abated their growth until gas prices came back down in the mid-’80s.

If we in the US had used these for 40 years instead of our 50 million pickups on the road every year- we’re talking about several BILLION TONS of oil saved. We wouldn’t have had to invade Iraq and murder 1.2 million Iraqis for their oil.

Ozyran is absolutely correct. You appear to have no understanding of the automobile market of the 1970s. The vast majority of pickup trucks then and before were two-wheel drive single-seater work trucks. Extended cabs did not exist. Crew cabs were confined largely to the job of hauling work crews to job sites. Four-wheel drive trucks were purchased only by people who needed to drive them off-road–and I don’t mean the beach. For the most part, they were purchased by men in rural areas.

It was not until much later that pickup trucks became cool. The death of the large rear-wheel drive sedan motivated suburbanites to replace them with four-door six-passenger pickup trucks. As the real truck replaced the large sedan in the suburban driveway, the El Camino died. Ford’s Ranchero had died the a decade earlier.

I think GM realizes this though. That’s why they are only importing about 12,000 what, a year?

Personally, I can see a ute doing very well though, especially in the current conditions. I think your all wrong, a ute about this size with a good four cylinder could do very well, average 25 miles to the gallon, and such a large bed. And really, despite the V-8 we might be surprised to see this do well.

G8 ST? How stupid.

The entire reason why the El Camino (and others like it) were popular at all was because of the gas crises of the 70s. If gas were cheap people would just buy a real truck.

If not right now what time would be good for it?

Personally I don’t know if ANY time is a good time for such a vehicle. But if ever there was a time that the business case would have a chance in hell it’s when gas prices are high.
Comment by SigmaHyperion”

SigmaHyperion, go back and read your automotive history books.

The El Camino first hit the showroom floor in 1959 as a styling exercise and competition for Ford’s El Ranchero pickup truck. It remained with the lineup until 1987, when GM killed off the G-body line in favor of the more popular FWD vehicles being produced.

It had NOTHING to do with fuel economy. It had EVERYTHING to do with styling and image.

THIS piece of junk needs to find its way to the crusher and then melted down for use in better vehicles like the upcoming Camaro.

A throwback to the past? How about a worthy successor to the LUV instead of the incompetent piece of junk called the Canyon or Colorado? And certainly not this thing.

You want a nice, efficient truck that handled well and looks decent Toyota has already made a pretty good example: The X-Runner. You don’t need a car-based truck just to have good handling. Now, mind you, *I* wouldn’t want a Toyota, but they set a good example of a truck that handles pretty well when they built the X-runner.