Let the flame war begins!

sounds about right… I have been notice a little bit of dilution in Toyota. I just wish that Honda had a more exciting product offerring. I like the Si, but I’ve outgrown all that.

Hopefully they will redesign the TSX with a performance edition.

import haters?

Anyone know the exact rankings?

Very interesting, but it sounds about right. This could get ugly.

Ford’s got the goods…they just can’t market them!

Ford and Chrysler are both dead for all I care. GM’s got some good things coming, what with the Astra and the G8, and even the new Malibu looks pretty decent. Ford is still selling us 8 year old cars, when the rest of the world had a newer version years ago, and Chrysler is being kept alive by the 300/Magnum/Charger.

Wait, they praise the **** out of Ford for 90% of their cars being AVERAGE or ABOVE AVERAGE, then say they’ll stop recommending the Camry because it’s in FIFTH PLACE?

Consumer reports?

could someone post a link to the real report?

It’s CR so take it with a grain of salt, people.

No surprise to me that Toyota slipped given what I’ve been reading about issues – the surprise is that CR admits it. I am surprised soobie is in the top 4 even though they don’t make a bad car.

The CR surveys are not scientific per se, they survey only their readership which may show a bias since people tend to subscribe to stuff that tells them what they want to hear (just like they vote for candidates). If I were Toyota I’d be concerned because my impression is that the average CR reader is Toyota-friendly and so if they slipped that bad in a year amongst their believers, then there is a real problem. Conversely, if the American marques improved significantly amongst those who constantly read “don’t buy American” then they must be doing something right.

One thing that may also be interesting is to know the numerical stats for the difference between #1 and # 10 or #20. If the difference is maybe 1 repair per 500 vehicles sold then it is not a particular risk, but CR never releases those stats so we will never know.

deanster… I don’t think the ford products come highly recommended. I think that they were just complementing ford on their progress.

Wow I cant wait to see how certain patriots spin this.
CR isnt reliable until they say Toyota has slipped lol.

I always thought that Honda and Toyota were equal in reliability. I never was a fan of Subaru but I have heard they are solid so maybe they will be on the list next time. Of course Im a Honda and Acura fan more so either way Im right. GM Ford and Chrysler have a looooong way to go (2022).

I guess my posts about this being a pro-domestic site have prompted them to be fair again. Only time will tell

Since Toyota’s getting so big I’m not that surprised that they slipped, but once again, to all of you domestic humpers, all I gotta say is..”I told you so”.

Also, for people that don’t like the results, stop blaming CR, and start blaming the companies. I hate when people keep blaming CR every time they don’t like an outcome, it’s reality, deal with it.

Can anyone explain why imports are more reliable than domestic vehicles? I’ve never heard it. tripleonefive is pretty steadfast in support of his misperception. And he/she’s a great example of the arrogance displayed by the import crowd.

Here’s the answer that I expect:
Why are imports better? Because domestics are unreliable. Why are domestics unreliable? Because imports are better.

i guess my posts about this being a pro-domestic site have prompted them to be fair again.
.
are you serious?
.
i thought they were always fair (lln) all they do is paste articles the have read, i dont thin this has anything to do with you.

CR is like “Life for Dummies”.
If you lived and bought what they said, you’d be one big fat boring dullard.

If someone could explain to me why CR has a different reliability rating for mechanically identical vehicles built on the same production line for vehicles like the Toyota Matrix / Pontiac Vibe, Pontiac Solstice / Saturn Sky, Mazda B series / Ford Ranger, etc., then maybe I would give them a little credibility. Until then, CR should stick to rating shampoos and toasters.

I just think that people should at least take something from CR and these articles. It’s not all bs, there is some truth behind these things, even though they are flawed tests. But then again, JD Power is a flawed test as well, and people love to cite that. No ranking of reliability will be perfect or will please all groups, but all groups should be able to get something out of every ranking test.

lamboz i agree and disagree, agree with toyota growing faster than than their q.c. can keep up with, which will eventuall be ironed out we all know that. and the part i disagree with is the domestic humper i told you so part, all theese guys will do is argue that their favorite domestics are improving.
and another note this does prove jag is doing better under ford here lately.

I still don’t think Consumer Reports should be trusted.

But on this issue, they are correct – they are also not the only ones that have recognized that Toy has fallen dramatically in quality. But it’s okay Toy. You can make a come-back. See you in 2022!

1115, give it up already. In the past week there have been like 5 articles that prove Toy is not that great after all. And also give up calling me a ‘patriot’ and trying to say that I want people to buy American because they are American.

Bryce, my explination of it is that during the 80s and 90s, people bought whatever crap the big 3 put out, no matter how terrible it was, because there simply wasnt a better option. The big 3 didnt bother to design quality cars because people were going to buy them anyway, so why bother making them good. Then in the late 80s Honda and Toyota stepped up providing cars that were very dependable.

It took the big 3 about 15 years and several billions in lost profits to figure out that most people cared more about dependablity than the car being made in the good ol’ US of A, and that if they were to stay in business, they were going to have to start building cars that rivaled the imports in terms of quality. Some have stepped up (GM) others have not (Ford). But, reputations take a long time to remake in the consumer world.

Bryce, there isn’t a misperception. We’ve owned every maker of domestic at my house and some imports… and guess what. I don’t know what they do, but the import cars are more dependable. And if I can’t site specific proof, it still doesn’t change the fact that there is a large despairity between the reliability of domestic automobiles and their more efficient import counterparts.

I think that this can be seen by the fact that Japanese cars have a much better QC program than domestic cars do. You can even see it in body panel and interior gaps. Imports makers generally over-engineer their parts.

At 140k miles I had changed my ford’s alternator twice, replaced the clutch once, had axle work done, replaced my A/C compressor, and blew my head gasket. My japanese car, now at 110k miles, hasn’t had a single issue yet. Even if it breaks down in the next 30k miles, it will still be much more dependable than the ford.

Although I’m glad to hear that Ford is doing well Conumer Reports is probably the most biased there is. I really don’t believe any of the reports that come out by any of the testing companies like JD Power and CR. It’s seems to be whoever pays them the most gets top honors.

Bryce, I’ll attemp to answer your question if you’ll open minded you may understand. There is no such thing any longer as domestic and imports. Perhaps as much as 70% of “imports” sold in US are made in US. About the same number of imports are made actually outside of geographical boundaries of US in Canada and Mexico or in Korea and sold under “stars & stripes” flag.
Having said that, lets look at the problem of reliability as it is exists for “domestic” brands/manufacturers. They (domestics) are driven by quarterly reports to Wall Street, internal politics within companies and all other forces none of us will know and may no’t understand. On another hand, Japs are driven by company loyalty that cuts both ways: employees are loyal to the company and company is loyal to employees. Employees work in company for life. You will not hear Honda exec jumping ship to Toyota, if he is of Japanese origin. As a matter of fact, I am not aware of any Japanese executives jumping ship (they may did in fact and I was not aware so someone on this forum will enlighten me, I am sure). That was major reason why Gnosn job of being accepted at Nissan was so difficult: he was outsider. You can call it company chauvinism, but it is what it is. Whole his life employee is working for the company, but not in our sense: he does what he’s made himself love to do (I don’t believe they were born with love to screw cars together). They care about what they do and improving the process constantly. Apparently that was the goal of Saturn, when it started and it actually did work for a while. But our brilliant domestic management screwed things up as soon as hard times hit them (right after the start). Another problem is our corporate mutual hate (in every company I’ve seen): engineers hate bean counters and vise versa. As a result, when stock price hits fan (often enough) CEO listen to bean counters and good ideas get screwed by cheaper suppliers, cheaper materials, more pressure etc.
Making cars is complicated long term process that requires discipline and love of cars. Our domestic management may like cars, but likes quick buck better and they driven by definition of career.
I think Toyota is skipping down, because they decided that “when in Rome do as Romans” and that of course showed up. Honda did not (so far). Honda is a totally different animal then Toyota and mixing them up is a mistake. I hope it helped.

No, I don’t think its bribes terminator. I simply think its bias. Consumer Reports seems to have a lot of import-humpers in its top positions

Bryce- Why are imports better? Reliability and build quality which correlates with the cars Resale value. Look it up. When your product is superior you can be arrogant. I know I should like GM and prefer it bc I’m an American but I don’t buy a product based on my nationality I buy it based on the factors listed above along with affordability and looks

Commodore
“I still don’t think Consumer Reports should be trusted. But on this issue, they are correct”
Right on the money. See how full of **** you are ! Either way Honda Subaru and ACURA! are on top not the domestics lol. This is so funny

Toyota makes great cars NOW thats why they are # 1. It doesn’t work the other way around bc the Japanese are superior .Thats why people buy them and they have the rep and build quality that GM wants so bad. It will take years of recalls and a slip out of the top 10 (where GM is NOW) to change that and for them to lose their build quality and reliability. GM will be lucky to be around in 2022 with the way they are going

JD Power s has a policy of paying for the top honors. They cannot be trusted

if anyone subscribed to Consumer Report they know that it is not scientific study, but as reliable as anything out there. You get a questionnaire you answer, if you so desire, and some interns in Westchester county NY enter results into computers. There is little to be judged or fixed by reporters. The good part about their surveys, that you can actually see how model does with time. Few years back Passat (previous model) was predicted to be a star after initial introduction, because of good fit and finish. After 3 years it turned into total crap. That often applies to many models. Hondas & Toyotas (cars) have tendency to be reliable as time goes on. Take a look at the library, if you don’t have copy at home. Surprising that news came up know, as cars issue usually comes out in March.

The Camry didn’t slip to fifth. The Camry V6 has below average reliability for its class. It must have average to be recommended. Toyota as a brand slipped to fifth. Meanwhile, cars like the Fusion, Milan and Accord are eating the Camry’s lunch in quality.

The fact that they give any manufacturer the benefit of the doubt in quality during the first year lowers CR in my opinion, but they, overall, have a decent method that is at least on par with everyone else in the market.

However, none of this changes the fact that Ford is starting to produce some higher quality cars, that Toyota is slipping (although certainly not down and out) and that Honda continues to produce the most reliable on the market. Several surveys now come to the same conclusion. I don’t think anyone can, in fact, argue with those assertions. All it really tells me is that quality/reliability can now be a lower factor when deciding between certain cars.

They have two issues, I thought: a November and a March/April one.

woah woah woah..when did I say that the domestics were on top? Just that Toyota has fallen from the top stop and ropped FIVE SPOTS. I am trying to make you realize that they are not superior.

And how am I full of ****?

CR Rated my 1999 Ranger as worse then average reliability but in 130,000 miles all i’ve done is change the timing belt and alternator so they can kiss my ass =) Hell im still on the og clutch. If the trend keeps going Toyota will drop below GM in reliability… Ford and Chrysler aren’t dead even though people wish they were for some stupid retarded dimwitted reason, they just need to ditch some old habits and keep striving and they will be back to glory… They did it in the 80’s and stomped the Japanese companies.

I was asking you how full of **** you are.
Now you back down when this report comes out huh ? You have said that GM is about equal with the Japanese in quality. Toyota slipping doesn’t mean the domestics go up are even CLOSE to the quality of the Japanese. GM has been making crap for 20 years and importing models from other countries doesnt change that
COR and Atourya are on the money

CR is unbiased, they got sued by Bose when they were going to publish their quality tests on the speaker brand. I don’t think they take any money from the reviews.

Heads are swimming all over.
Some are rolling.
CR?
This could not be funnier (well maybe)
But the headline: Honda Bumps Toyota From Top Spot…
What SPIN!
Hellllllllow.
It should read:
Toyota Takes A Dive To 5th Place!

I know everyone will have their reasons why they think the reports are flawed or accurate… or why imports or domestics are crap… whether something they read somewhere else, or their own experiences perhaps, but It seems really small minded to be patriotic about car selection and not much else. I’m sure the majority of us don’t check the country of origin on the televisions/DVD/Stereo Equipment, PDA/Mobile phones/Computers, furniture, clothes and shoes, even a lot of the bloody food we eat……. It’s just not sensible. If you’re gonna be patriotic about products, it shouldn’t stop at just cars. It would be more sensible to say you hate Domestics or Imports because you just do. **** it… I’d assume most of us are adults anyways. We don’t need a God damned reason to do anything.
I’m sure there is some truth to these reports, but like almost any other kind of survey, there’s a margin for error. At the end of the day, most people will buy vehicles for totally different reasons… looks, performance, buid quality, resale value, safety… and yes, reliability… but not any single one of those. And, not all issues that would be deemed as reliability issues are serious/catastrophic failures of any sort. It’s all just a bit more knowledge for us so we can better make an educated choice.
btw, I’m a Honda fan, so technically I have no reason to complain… just don’t think this import vs domestic thing is that big a deal.

I think that we (consumers, gearheads, etc) give too much credit to these types of companies for their reviews. An independant party shouldn’t be right just because it’s allegedly unbiased. I’ve read their ratings but I can’t find an example of their ranking system. On a given vehicle, I don’t know if there are one or two components that consistently fail or if the entire model is falling apart. Likewise, are the cost of any given repairs balanced against the difficulty or necessity of replacement? If anyone else knows, please enlighten me. I don’t think that their subscribers know either, but they are who spend the money. An organization like the NIASE might be better suited to provide reliability ratings than CR.

atourya, I can describe, with wildly varying descriptions, my past four vehicles along with the past eight my parents have driven, ranging from mid-80’s models to 2006. Good and bad from foreign and domestic makes. Chevrolets, Dodge, Plymouth, Pontiac, Fords, Nissans, Mazda, and Toyota. There may be some notoriously bad vehicles but the driver can be more culpable than the car.

allpar.com has an article lambasting Consumer Reports over credibility. It’s a good read.

What if the reverse had just been announced:

Toyota screams to the front of the class!!!

All you jap worshipers would be actually leaving the sofa to get on here and crow, crow, crow.
None of you can spin this and you can’t be honest about what this means to you.

You know who you are.
And we do too.

No we wouldnt because Toyota being on top is not out of the ordinary lol You import hater fail to realize that if Toyota isnt on top then Honda will be Either way it wont be a domestic

Figured it would be you first and you would duck by saying something like
“either way it won’t be a domestic”
domestic hater.

When the Domestics prove themselves then I may change my mind. I’m not anti domestic, I’m pro superior product

Domestics are proving themselves to a lot of folk and even to the media.
To bad you didn’t get the memo.

Domestics still have 15 years to go to prove themselves and its TOO bad that you don’t understand that

And 15 years from now 1115 will be graduating from high school and buying a used 2007 Ford Taurus as his first ride and maybe will be taking Mary (hairy scary) Lou Hopkins to the Rising Sun Trailer Park Barnyard Boogie-Down for some BBQ, beans, and ricecakes!

Z06ified…if you were bright enough, you’d do a BIT of research and learn that the Matrix is built in Canada, and the Vibe is built in Nummi.

TWO DIFFERENT PRODUCTION LINES.

Can’t you keyboard flame warriors at least try a BIT to be informed?

Oh yes…and we all know Consumer Reports is the pinnacle of objective, unbiased reviews… gimme a f*cking break!

Don’t worry 1115, the rest will fall too. Scion will fall along with Toyota (and so will Subaru since its now tied to Toyoda). Once the wheels fall off a couple more of their cars, Consumer Reports will have no choice but to downgrade Honda (and its twin Acura) along with it. Also, its not like CR is the automotive bible, this is just their ratings. They shouldn’t be taken to heart

And you are right 1115, TOYODA does have another 15 years to go before it proves itself again.

If CR is not credible, why credible site like LLN quotes it? Yep japs, which build their cars in the US, for last 20 years have been producing superior quality cars. “Domestics” made in Mexico and Korea not that great and have a spotty record if looked on corporate level. Not all domestic cars are lousy, some are better then japs, but overall Japanese companies produce better quality (either over the pond or here). There is a ray of sunshine for GM: their stock is moving up.

Will Suzuki fall too? They owned by GM. Daewoo? It was a tricky question, Daewoo has no place to fall Chinese not selling here. Daewoo is GM also. Is there a point is this absurd name calling?

My mistake: Chinese not selling here, but engine in Equinox is made in China. Transmission comes from Japan. How American is that?

The reason LLN is quoting CR even know that its not credible is because CR is an influential source. Their opinion matters. For some people, President Bush is not trustworthy but the media quotes him because he is important. I think you were pretty fair to say that not all domestics are crap.

Suzuki is not owned by GM. Only 3% of it is – that is not anywhere near a full/majority stake therefore Suzuki is not owned by GM. Suzukis quality or recalls or whatever are therefore not part of GM. Daewoo is not sold in America so it isn’t on this list.

The Equinox is about 70% American parts-wise. However, 100% of the profit made on every Equinox goes to America. 100% of the profit on every Jap vehicle goes to Japan.

EXPLAIN TO ME THIS: Why does Toyonda have better quality than the domestics?? You mentioned that Toyondas car made in America and “over the pond in Japan” are both better quality than domestics. Why is that? Does Toy hire better workers? Why do they build their cars better? Are Japanese people smarter than Americans? What is it?

Finally ….
Toyota is really overhyped, period.
Dunno about the 15 years behind thing, definitely in public opinion, but in quality I think less.

Toyota down 4 spots to #5! At this rate, it will be #9 next year. World’s biggest car company by year’s end – my ass!

‘Z06ified’, you ****ing primate … good to see ‘ALMSfan’ acknowledge your worthlessness here too. You post like you know something, when, in fact, you are ****ing clueless. Just like most of the jackasses here, you are waste … nothing but worthless waste.

FACK AFF.

All you grammatical professors, please remember that Toyota still leads the industry in number of vehicles being recommended by CR. Why don’t you all pick a team and stick to it – fairweather fans. One day it’s domestic, the next is import.

LLN is uh hum…. credible? I can’t blanketly deny that comment, but I have doubt.

“Suzuki is not owned by GM. Only 3% of it is – that is not anywhere near a full/majority stake therefore Suzuki is not owned by GM. Suzukis quality or recalls or whatever are therefore not part of GM. Daewoo is not sold in America so it isn’t on this list.”

Commodore, the Verona, Reno, Forenza are all rebadged Daewoo that are sold in America. Even if Daewoo is not on the list, one can safely assumes that it has added on Suzuki’s quality issue.

Lol @ Commodore & El Debarge Head
Toyota on its worst day is better than GM on its best day. I love how you try and down Toyota but Toyota has reliability resale and sales on their side. I just laugh at how mad you get bc you know that GM is inferior lol

1115, I have to admit that your crusade to promote Toyonda convinced me to NEVER even consider those brands in next future when it comes to buy a new car. For sure I will choose among european and american brands. Toyonda will thanks you a lot for your great job as adviser. Best Regards

I’ve always thought Consumer Reports was biased, and now I’m sure it’s true. Check out the following from a Detroit News article today:

Ford gains,Toyota slips in Consumer Reports’ annual quality survey

“In the past, Consumer Reports has automatically recommended each new version of Toyota, Lexus and Scion models that have already earned that rating because of Toyota’s strong quality record. That will no longer be the case. Champion said new versions of models from each of the three Toyota brands will now be subject to the same scrutiny as models from other automakers.”

Regardless of the product–vehicle, toaster, whatever–all products should be subjected to the same testing. I don’t see how CR can say they’re providing consumers with the best/accurate information if the rules aren’t the same for all the players. For me, it’s simple: People need to do their own research and not rely on the media to tell them what to buy.

I subscribe to CR and think they are a great tool. They are not to be quoted as truth though. Everything they publish tends to be mostly on the button. Like someone said though, take it with a grain of salt. Their surveys are done by members like myself so results are highly subject in some areas. They also rigorously test their vehicles and publish road test just like the enthusiast magazines, minus a lot of the flair. Either way, Toyota is still way up there in quality, but they will experience a lot of problems with the volume they are selling.

Gents, if CR is not credible you should not state that Toyota quality slipped. If it credible then Toyota quality went down. I did own a lemon Camry, but I still will buy Toyota even disguised as Pontiac (I also had very bad case of Pontiac and swore to myself not to own one again). Statistically as a consumer I will trust Toyota quality over GM and Honda over Toyota.

To answer Commodore why Toyonda and japs in general produce better quality in US: it is their process and discipline. Call it management technique build on top of solid relationship between management and their work force (round eyes like most of us on this forum). Saturn did try to emulate their model and FAILED, because GM management (which is GM company) is made of cowards.

This is not a judgment on race (I may be a racist), it is observation of market reality. US is outsourcing its manufacturing to countries who have more discipline and frankly engineering and management skill. In a reverse of a trend Japs brought back manufacturing to our shore and actually rubbing our management noses in our impotence. Yes it is the same American worker who makes best Honda in Ohio and the same who makes a ****ty quality Jeep in the same state. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

These CRr reports in recent years interest me mainly because the difference in values and percieved values is in stark contrast to what you see in a simple 1st thru last analysis. The worst car on this list has 1/2 of the problems of the Acuras that were leading this list in the early 90s. That is how good quality control has become accross the board. So what if a Chevy has 1.2 problems per car versus 1.16 for a Honda that is such a minute amount it is ridiculous. And these rating say nothing of which car is better in the long haul. Not to mention the superior warranty coverage makes up for a lot on the brands like Hyundai, GM and Dodge. Quality is a non-issue on todays cars, 1 of every 100 Hondas is a lemon and 1 of every 90 Dodges too ,not much difference. Buy the one you like or makes you feel good.

Lusa
If you want to buy a European vehicle go ahead. If you choose to buy a inferior domestic product then you will realize why I say the things that I say on this site
Just look at any car magazine or website and see what cars come out on top . You would be a fool to buy American before the year 2022

Good point autonut. If CR isn’t credible, it hardly makes sense debating whether any of the cars involved in their survey slipped in quality or not.

LMAO…Toy Ota couldn’t build a good car even if they kidnapped the best engineers on this planet. Their incompetence goes from top to bottom so it’s easy to see why they fail again and again, every single time.

1c
I dont see how you came to that conclusion but Im just guessing you are an American who loves **** mobiles