Will they never fu*king learn, will they? Just make better cars! Stop with the BS advertising campaigns that sell nothing but hot air.

Jon.

You don’t think the Saturn Sky is a “better car”?

“Jon”… Maybe you should pay attention to the car world before you speak. They have an almost entirely new line of cars coming out this summer and fall, the ad campaigns are to raise awareness. What else do you expect them to do. You’re not criticizing Honda for doing thos FIT commercials? Get outta here ya big dope.

Mike, I’m not partial to ad hominem attacks, but since you obviously have no real point and complete missed the reason for my post (the Sky is horrible in everyway, btw…typical of GM thinking, maybe you should scroll down a bit and see where LLN posted that Bank of America further downgrades GM’s ability to perform) and have no way of making a point without directly using me, not the issue at hand to post a counterargument. Such behavior is too mentally plebian for me to waste anymore time on it.

Jon.

#2: better car than what? A Mazda MX-5? (Which is its direct competitor) No, it’s not better.

Jon.

Is Solstice/Sky better than the MX-5? Who makes that decision? YOU? Of course you can make that decision but lets let the consumer decide. Anybody able to tell us what the sales of the new MX-5 is to the new Solstice?

Lets let the customer decide!!!

Lets see:

Better handling; better build quality, better R&D department, better starting price ($3K less)

Better engine, since the MX-5 gets the same horse, but needs .4 liters less to create it and gets better gas mileage because of it:

Sky: 2.4L I4, 170bhp @ 6400 RPM
MX-5: 2.0L I4, 170bhp @ 6700 RPM

Better warranty:

Sky: 36 months / 36,000 miles
MX-5: 48 months / 50,000 miles

Weight:

Sky: 2860 lbs
MX-5: 2414 lb

Distributions:

Sky: near 50 / 50
MX-5: 50 /50

I see a clear winner, and its made in Japan.

Jon.

It’s a little early to pick a winner. Besides, the Miata is a little old in the tooth despite makeovers and name changes. I think it’s Poncho against Saturn. GM hopes for twice the sales but I’ll bet they’ll cannibalize themselves.

Besides, I don’t think there’s any money to be made in cheap 2-seaters. Selling Buffy’s sixteenth birthday car is not much of a business model.

j i m

Jon, what a nice babbling rant there after being called out for your foolish first comment. Props for the use of the word “plebian”, thats putting the old dictionary to work.

Face it, your comment #1 is just foolish. What auto company dosen’t have a “BS advertising campaigns that sell nothing but hot air”. GM has things to sell, and just like everyone else that has something to sell they are going to do their best to let you know it. It dosent’ matter if their products are better or worse, they are going to advertise.

BTW: What was the point of your post, because, Like Mike I seem to have missed it to. Maybe you should have restated it in your second comment instead of ranting about what Bank of America thinks. Becuase that sure is relevant to the new Saturn ad campaign…

$25K is not cheap but I agree that profit on the 2 seaters will not bring GM back from the brink by themselves. Also so far it looks like GM will build all they can with the capacity they have in place. GM will need to balance the desired ratio between the Solstice and the Sky. HOpe they do not increase capacity past the demand and kill the cars resale.

I guess the question still is is the Sky “horrible” in every way. Jon sees a loser since a few statistics show the Sky is lacking. I guess this is one way of looking at it. I would think that a better measure would be pure sales vs. ATP. If Solstice/Sky can sell more cars at the same or higher ATP then most would say the Solstice/Sky was the winner. Of course there is also the length of time that the two can keep their volume up. If the sales die in the later years then it could also be considered losers?

I have no interest in roadsters, but Jon’s winner by numbers post is interesting. Are winners and losers determined by the spec sheet? Obviously enthusiasts count all those numbers as important, but what about Joe Bob who browses the auto mall on a Sunday afternoon?

“Passion” is a word that gets dropped around here freqently. I’ve never seen “passion” show up on a spec sheet.

Finally, Jon, .4 extra liters of displacement that the SKY has also generates and additional 26 lbs. of twist. Did that fall off your chart because if may have clouded the clear winner?

Even if the sky makes more torque, it still gets worse gas mileage and weighs 400 lbs more, has less than 50 / 50 weigh distribution, costs more and is more unreliable. That’s what makes the MX-5 a clear winner. And, I don’t have to use a dictionary to look up words.

Jon.

#7 Japan cleary a winner!! By what the weight difference you posted and warranty??? LOL!

YOu are aware that the Pontiac Solstice is outsellin the new MX5 right?

I see…so because it ‘outsells’ it makes it a better car? I should be the one that is laughing at you…

Jon.

“Like always. Like never before� theme through a series of vignettes that juxtapose Saturn’s “storied reputation�

—first off, when the f has any Saturn had a “storied reputation” other than all those stories of the plastic bits falling off etc.?

—secondly, if its a fine car, which it MAY be, whats with creating ads that make no apparent sense? “Like always – like never before.” – WTF is that supposed to mean? Sounds Lexus-like to me. And if an auto enthisiast like me doesnt get it on the surface, how is their lesser-inclined target market going to get it?

When you start applying high-end automaker adv./mktg themes a la BMW/Merc/Lexus to a car with a much less sophisticated audience, you risk missing your whole target. Just not sure that Skye buyers have the egos necessary to respond to this ad theme. And if they did have such egos, they surely would scoff at the mere suggestion that Saturn has some “storied history” etc….

Asher, you forgot to add that the Sky has a very long and storied past, why it’s a got a good whole 4 months of history! Now, just convert that into dog years… and you get what I call a ‘storied past’.

Jon.

But Jon, you just said how the Sky “…is more unreliable.” How can you extrapolate reliability index scores in 4 months!? I’m so confused Jon! Please, parlay some more of your god-like car wisdom onto us all, I don’t know what to like and what not to like without your heavy handed snobbery!

Saturn has a reputation of quality customer service at the dealership. So perhaps that’s what they’re going for.

So how about the anti-fanboy backs off, eh? Nobody likes to read every other comment by the same person. How many times are you refreshing this page per minute?

It should be noted that the SKY isn’t the only car Saturn is making, the Aura is hitting dealerships this summer/fall, along with the Outlook, with a new Vue and Ion replacement to follow. There’s a definite turn-around underway, no matter if the japanese fanboys acknowledge it or not.

Solstice alone is moving 2200 units a month, while the MX-5 is selling 2000. Adding the Sky, GM’s roadsters far outsell the MX-5.
Over half of Americans are too large to fit inside the MX-5. Easy answer for why many people cannot even consider purchasing the MX-5.

Maybe if they learned to stop stuffing their fat asses with worthless fat, and started exercising, perhaps they could fit into the MX-5.

Jon.

Mike,

First off, I’m not a ‘Japanese Fan boy’, I’ve seen ricer cars that were horrible, and I things of which I’m critical: I still think that all of Acura’s lineup should be RWD / AWD and not front wheel drive, which would not only really prove their ‘sports-luxury’ car mantra, but would also better differentiate them more from the Honda lineup.

Secondly, I’m not on one side or another side of pacific when it comes to car (especially since I own a car made on the other side of the Atlantic), I’m for whatever seems the most logical, backed up by facts and reason. Thus, most of the farcical arguments on this thread are backed up by none of my aforementioned pieces of information needed to make an erudite argument.

Thirdly, you keep on attacking me and not the issue, which only solidifies that you have no real counterargument and at best can use the petty political trick of labeling me against your ‘side’ of your irrational argument. You keep on defending second-rate products, instead of seeing the reality. All of which is really sad.

Jon.

Someone is sure pushing a Japanese agenda here. Why don’t you give the car some time before you go making assumptions about it’s reliability. I thought the ecotec engine was pretty reliable? Maybe edmunds and consumer reports know less then John does though?

Give the car a chance, you may like it. I think it is sharp looking. That’s all I can base my comment on though because I have never driven one.

Guys – I think many of you are missing the point to this article. I can tell you from personal experience having purchased an SC in 1992 that I owned for 3 years and 60,000 miles and traded in for an SC2 in 1995 that I had for 10 years and 185,000 miles that both cars were incredibly reliable (just regular maintenance on the first and regular maintenance and a new clutch at 100,000 miles on the second). I’ll be the first to admit that neither car had the best fit-and-finish by a long shot, but both were as reliable as the sunrise and had relatively good fuel economy.

In 1992 when I bought my first Saturn, I shopped everything comparable in the market – both foreign and domestic. Some of the other products were “better” (nicer fit-n-finish, stronger engines, better reputation, etc.) but the sales experience was simply painfull. The Saturn sales and service experience was outstanding by comparison and this is where the new advertising slogan comes into play…

If I can have the same dealer experience (Like always) and much improved product (Like never before), I’ll consider going back to Saturn. I lost interest in Saturn after 1996 when they dropped the shortened SC platform and essentially stagnated.

I’m not denying anyone their opinion, but I can tell you from experience that if this is Saturn’s new message, I hear it loud and clear.

Go Jon! Enough with the hot-air ad campaigns!! Prove it on the road!

Well, at least AF gets it! Its not that they have ad campaigns that’s the problem, is that they are full of nonsense. I don’t care about the non-existent history of a brand. Seriously, Saturn is not Mercedes. They can’t sell the ‘history’ of a car brand that hasn’t even been around for 20 years. Thus, the ad campaign is pointless and total BS.

Jon.

Jon,

“Like always. Like never beforeâ€? is the perfect new slogan for a brand that always had great service and is now coming around with great products. What do you want them to say in their commercials? “Zoom zoom” as a tagline is pretty corny. It’s childish.

And you can run stats down comparing the SKY and the Miata, but the new Miata has nowhere near the design presence of the SKY. It looks just like the old Miata with fender bulges added on.

I agree with Jon up there, the Sky may be an improvement, but damn, the Solstice and the Sky really aren’t up to par with the MX-5. And no, let’s not let the consumer decide, because if the consumer decides which cars are good and bad, that would make Chevy Trailblazer’s good cars, which they most certainly are not. Maybe try driving a Sky/Solstice and an MX-5, or read the reviews and decide then. Since i’ve read a plethora of reviews by now, and all come down to the same conclusion, the MX-5 is far, far, FAR superior to the Solstice, and since the Sky is the exact same vehicle as the Solstice (typical GM bull****), it is inferior to the MX-5 as well

Jon, have you considered that you’re arguing with the GM marketing department? They know that sites like these hold huge sway with car buyers. Aren’t they just a little too defensive and a bit too articulate about GM’s case?

AF, if these some of these guys really do work for GM, then they are truly fu*ked. Guys, I hope you enjoy it while it lasts, because it won’t be long if this is the direction you’re going in.

Jon.

Again, I could care less about either of these vehicles or who wins the little pissing match here, but if anyone sounds like a corporate shill here it’s Jon. The article or any of the other commenters didn’t bring up the MX-5, Jon did.

Jon, you think your making articulate and make well reasoned arguemnts, but your not. Yea, yea, Ad hominem, I know. The only solid information you’ve brought to the table are 4 selective data points, (You skipped torque for weight distribution?) other than that you’ve got alot of opinion, just like everyone else.

Even though Jon might appear to be overly critical I have to agree with his assertions. The ad campaign makes no sense. While the car has an improved appearance, it essentially is still a saturn. I see a bunch of rich yuppies along the California coast driving the mx-5 because it’s a fun car to drive. Sure they can afford more expensive cars but having driven the mx-5 myself I definately think it’s an exciting car to drive. Not sure about the saturn, never driven it so I can not comment on it.

Patrick, the review roundup of the major car websites and the magazines seems to hold that the MX-5 produces better and more fun on the track and pushed to 9/10’s, and the Solstice/Sky have more streetable torque and better, more plush road manners, making it the better car in a commute.

That’s a little ways from ‘far, FAR superior’. Methinks you’re armchair test driving.

Ahk-Med, you’re only argument is torque; buy yet I have a weak argument? Also, you have to compare similar cars to each other, thus I bring the MX-5 to the equation; unless you want me to compare the Sky to a Porsche Boxster S?

Jon.

Jon, have you actually driven both cars?

IMHO, this discussion isn’t about the MX-5. It’s about Saturn’s new ad campaign, which is so much heavy-handed propoganda. You have a better car? Then humbly sell THAT car. Don’t give us blanket statements about how great everything is now. Look across the current product line, Saturn’s statements just don’t bear out. If you want to start getting all boastful about “like never before,” then WAIT until you have 4-5 new cars at the lot that support this statement. Then maybe we can judge.

As it is Saturn, you do in fact have 1 cool car to sell. But you’ve gone too far with the marketing and now we’re arguing about your ad campaign instead of being excited by your roadster.

Jon, I don’t have an argument, other than your argument is weak. I criticize you becuase you deliver your opinion as fact and claim you have information to support it when you have really have almost nothing… other than opinion (and a dictionary).

“Thus, most of the farcical arguments on this thread are backed up by none of my aforementioned pieces of information needed to make an erudite argument.”

Pot. Kettle. Black.

In the end I agree with you, but not with how you make your point. In my equally worthless opinion, the Mazda is the superior more refined vehicle, and a better value than either of the GM twins.

If I ever (hah) had any interst in a roadster I’d get an S2000.

If you agree why do you argue? Why do you continue this ridiculous tête-à-tête regarding nonsensical and unaffiliated (and assumed opinions) like if I’m using a dictionary? Seriously, it’s your argument that’s weak, especially, if you agree with me.

Jon.

Hey fellas, can we relax just a little bit?

Regarding Solstice/Sky versus MX-5: Can we all keep in mind Mazda has been building and refining that Miata for quite some time now. This is GMs first stab at a competing roadster, and they’re doing very well. Both GM cars are very beautiful (more so than the mazda, in my opinion), and both perform similarly. If the Mazda has a slightly (or even less than slightly) more capable car, good for them. They should! They’ve been working on it long enough. So give GM a break! I don’t see anyone else even attempting to compete with the MX-5, so can we cut back on the criticisms?

As far as the new slogan is concerned, it makes enough sense: Same company as always, only now with good cars! It makes sense to me. But I don’t know if its enough to entice anyone to buy one. But at this point, I’m actually liking their cars (Well, Opel’s cars. But whatever. I sure dont care about that). Not to say they’re up to BMW standards or anything, but at least they’re worth the money.

And so help me, if one of you comes back at me with a “BMW standards? BMW SUCKS” kinda comment, I’ll cut you so bad man, I’ll cut you so bad, you gon’ wish, you gon’ wish i didn’t cut you so bad!