What Lutz is saying makes sense, and I know this isn’t GM’s fault this time–but DANG! It’s like God is saying “Okay, American car makers, you’re done. You’re turn is over, let somebody else play.”

All I can say is Camaro song redux…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdegQmtgFSM

It’s official! The economy is now waiting for congress to get off its rear end and decide what to do about environmental regulation.
Detroit (and every economist) has known for years that the way to increase fuel efficiency is to put the incentive on consumers (i.e. make it more expensive to drive gas guzzlers). Auto makers follow consumer tastes, not the other way around.

—————>Dang, so whut about the Pontiac G8? its coming out wayy before the camaro…..matterfact, ’sposed 2B in a couple of months……so is it on hold?

Don’t worry, we won’t need the Federal Government to define new emission and economy standards. The western states, led by California and it’s giant product defining market will take the lead and set the new standards. You’ll complain about the hippy liberal left coast enviormental wackos for the short term, but 40 or 50 years from now it will be appreciated all over the world.

Lotus he’s really saying; “We can’t stop sinning.” and wants a pass. If you can’t make a profit making small cars – why has GM kept Saturn open all these years when it never made one, single dime’s profit?
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Next, he’ll ask all you GM-loyalists to join hands at the GM building and stop breathing for short periods so GM can log the CO2 credits.. then he can continue to make 500hp Camaros and Escalades.

lutz is a moron comparing cars to human levels of c02 output.

CA should just secede.

Instead of trying to make all GM’s SUV’s more fuel-efficient, couldn’t they just cut down production of them to increase their CAFE ranking? Seems like a smart pre-emptive move considering it’s only April and gas around D.C. is $2.85.
As for Piablo’s weight comment. I do enjoy a lightweight car for fun, but as my daily driver I’m not sure how safe I’d feel in an ~1800lbs Civic, especially with everyone else in 6000lbs SUVs.

the problem is that gm has put all of it’s eggs in one basket. HIGHPOWER! don’t get me wrong, i love power as much as the next guy, but the way they do it is stupid. they make a ****ty car that weighs 4000 pounds and to make it fast, they just put a huge engine on it. why don’t they spend some time making it a descent car, the weight would come down, and they could put a smaller engine on it. i know it’s not the same car, but look at a lotus. 1900 punds with a tiny engine and it will wrestle with a muscle car any day. do you also notice the line up they are talking about? camaro, impala, monte, … all huge, heavy cars. those things were big in the 70s. gm want’s to be hip but they are desperatly clinging to trends that are almost 40 years old.

This is where the german will get ahead as they have been trying to ruduce weight and making diesels

youre much safer in a 1600lb civic than a 400lb motorcycle.
all the old men at gm will be dead or retired soon, so lets hope the next generation has a fresh mindset away from those heave beast cars and join the real world that we all live in, not lutzes old world from the 60`s to the 80`s.

how is reducing co2 emissions political? maybe as soon as we realized that co2 emission were bad, gm should have begun making less emitting cars instead of buying and dismantling train lines. hey lutz i hope you can speak Japanese because you’re going to be a Toyota employee soon. the auto industry wines more than the riaa.

I am sort of amused that Lutz says you can’t make a profit on small cars if built in the US. It seems to me Toyota and Honda seem to make that system work…

Maybe thats because people actually WANT those small cars–they dont need to be heavily discounted to sell

….And I thought GM was beginning to get back on track again. Guess the “can’t do” attitude at GM has returned and I was wrong.

“Lotus he’s really saying; “We can’t stop sinning.” and wants a pass. If you can’t make a profit making small cars – why has GM kept Saturn open all these years when it never made one, single dime’s profit?
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Next, he’ll ask all you GM-loyalists to join hands at the GM building and stop breathing for short periods so GM can log the CO2 credits.. then he can continue to make 500hp Camaros and Escalades.” – By: Wetstuff

I don’t think you are grasping what he’s really saying. What Lutz is saying is that GM can’t make a profit off of small cars made in America. Saturn is a pretty normal sized car. He is talking about like the Chevy Aveo and such that are made in foreign countries because it is cheaper to manufacture them over there and ship them over than it is to make them over here and sell them.

What he is getting at about the CO(-2) comments is that it is getting harder and harder to diminish those levels in a car especially when they have to make the cars bigger and heavier just to be safer by the American Governments standards for safety. There is nothing wrong with a 500hp Camaro nor an Escalade as long as it meets the regulations. Hell the new Z06 does well in emissions testing compared to many other cars on the roads, especially cars of its standards…

I don’t really think you have any knowledge talking about this situation, because if you did, you would have said something that made sense already…

Lutz is full of it. Those regulations are by 2017, and they’re not keeping those cars for 10 years.

Stop paying the people on the assembly line $25-$35/hour … you’ll build small cars more profitably.

Stop building 500hp tanks when gas prices are on the rise … where were these jokes 5 or 10 years ago?

Stop focusing on the source of all the problems … oil … start focusing on alternative sources. It’s not like oil is going to fall in price ever again. Knowing that, redirect your resources, and fast.

Stop blaming the government. Cars are lighter, safer and more fuel efficient because of laws instituted over the past few decades.

Stop the unwillingness to ADAPT.

Why not put diesels in them? Why not make them E85 compatible, why not make Hybrid versions instead of cancelling some of the most promising vehicles they’ve had in 40 years? Also, GM has the ability to make efficient RWD Cars. The Vette gets 29 mpg hwy, and it’s performance tuned albeit light and aerodynamic, but even the last RWD Impala got nearly 25 mpg highway, and was only 1-2 mpg behind the FWD Lumina…

I think this is a very flawed comment by Lutz. They’d be crazy not to optimize the mainstream vehicles of this platform for efficiency, with a few performance models thrown in.

You also won’t see MB or BMW giving up on RWD to meet any standard….

Toyota and Honda make a profit on small cars built in the U.S. simply because of the amount of automation in their newer factories. Granted GM has some level of automation, their factories employ many more workers than Toyota and Honda combined. If GM were to spend billions of dollars, they could retool and upgrade their factories to a very high level of automation. This would allow them to build small cars at a profit but how many would they have to sell in order to recoup those billions of dollars? GM’s “can’t do” attitude isn’t out of apathy, rather financial necessity. GM will have to change to continue. They cannot afford to rapidly change everything. Expect the change to a high level of automation to take some time, so expect to see large cars from Detroit for a while. And just for the record, global warming is a load of crap. It has been snowing during spring break for the past decade in the Mid West. We have also been in a severe drought for about a decade with summers approaching 115 degrees F. Weather does cycle. For the first time in 9 years, the river filled to the brim with runoff. NASA even reported that the ozone layer over Antarctica was healing and the whole was almost non-existent. So, after I cut the catalytic converters off my V-12 Jaguar, somebody explain clarify for me how it is that we have global warming. Then we can all hold hands and join in song as we fly a rainbow flag. I’ll enjoy my 4,000 pound chunk of steel while all the liberal wackos can die in their little plastic hybrid. By the way, check out how bad plastic is for the environment. Then think again about your little green ricers.

Does anyone else consider this a joke…

Lutz is full of ****. If you cant figure out how to raise the average consumption to 34mpg in 10 YEARS you’re a moron and the GM Board should probably ask themselves why they have a CEO that can’t marginally raise fuel economy in a DECADE worth of research. 10 years ago AOL was still around with modem beeps and it would take me 10 minutes to post this. It’s ridiculous! In 10 years both the Japanese and the Europeans will have that beat without breaking a sweat. This is why our car industry is on its way out. F Chevy!

“Small-car mileage only counts toward CAFE if you build them here, and you can’t build small cars here at a profit,”…Are they saying that the only cars that count to CAFE are the cars built here? If so, that’s a BIG problem.

Think about it…that’s only restricting US companies…I mean give me a break, the US BMW line-up doesn’t meet CAFE and it doesn’t have to. Plus, with California’s rediculous diesel restrictions, diesel isn’t an option either–at least not for a while. GM is already starting to build smaller cars because people want them, but if they aren’t building them here they don’t count? What about the total cars sold in the US? Isn’t that more important? GM will just produce crap that we don’t want, then it will sit at the dealers while we buy foreign. Sure maybe if GM had started building small cars here instead of Europe all along we might not be in this situation, but shouldn’t our own government take the current situation into consideration?

Jaguar XJ-S. Even the Bush administration, the king of denying the obvious, is admitting that global warming is a problem. And I have no idea what “whole” in the ozone layer that you’re talking about. There a hole in the ozone layer that is getting a bit better though. Still, global warming is a very true and very unfortunate fact.

It’s sad that GM may have to cancel these cars. I was really looking forward to them.

That might can still push Zeta but will have to rely on smaller, smarter engines, More turbos and superchargers. A more European or Japanese approach. The big V8s would be sadly reserved for more powerful and or expensive models…. maybe. More use of hybrid technology, like Hydraulic hybrids which would be less expensive and weighty than electric hybrids.

Oh well, I’m still lining up for a Camaro anyway.

The biggest issue with global warming right now is the polar ice caps melting…and trust me, they’re melting. That means the sea level will rise… A LOT. Plus, what one earth makes you think global warming is only 10 years old? We’re aware that the ozone layer is healing, from what I understand, it’s not a coincidence.

Global warming is real, no matter what people want to think. As for how much impact it has, that’s another debate. The problem is, we needed these regulations 30 years ago when the oil crisis was around. If they would have had some forethought (Repubs and Dems alike), then we wouldn’t be in this mess. I do agree with casualobserver though: how many times did we hear about hybrid cars when gas prices spiked? People were dying to get into one. Pure supply and demand…

Davebo – Yes, that is a big reason why ’soccer moms’ drive SUVs as well. Fathers put their wives in big vehicles to help protect their family. But that logic is not unlike nuclear proliferation in that we buy a bigger SUV becuase our neighbors bought a bigger one. Pretty soon everyone is driving tanks as leozug said. Truth be told, I don’t think anyone has much of a chance in a 50mph head on collision no matter what they are driving. regulating the industry to death is not the way to building more efficient vehicles. Hampering people’s ability to drive a vehicle with no more than 3 passengers is the not the way either. Deregulating the nonsense laws that hamper design helps everyone. As long as politicians focus on bull**** CAFE standards, vehicle prices will rise, choice and selection will reduce, and everyone but the enviros will be pissed.

Impulsive, where do I start… If GM could stop paying $25-35 an hour on the assembly line, they would. There’s a little thing called the UAW that prevents that, something Toyota does not have to deal with. Cars are not lighter today, they are heavier by a long shot. And that is due to government regulations. In order to solve a problem, one should probably identify what the problem is first, shouldn’t they? It’s people thinking like your self, and knee jerk reactions filled with simple minded soultions such as ‘just redirect resources, and fast!’ that put us in these problems.

GM’s can’t do attitude was shown in the 70’s when catalytic converters became mandatory. Instead of doing the right thing and engineering them into the car, they simply added the cat and complained. GM was hoping that consumers would revolt and the law would b repealed.

Chevy initially put out a 165 HP vette in 1975. They got their act together the next year and got back to over 200.

Automation is not GM’s problem. It’s guys like Lutz

Welcome to oblivion GM – what are American car builders without big rear-wheel drive cars? Everyone makes MPV’s and front-drive saloons and the 4×4’s will be extinct soon.

Jaguar XJ-S wrote “…NASA even reported that the ozone layer over Antarctica was healing and the whole was almost non-existent. …”

The reason that the ozone hole is healing is because alarmist scientists brought it to our attention. Idiot governments got together over the objections of our benevolent corporations and banned chlorofluorocarbons. Scientists and engineers at chlorofluorocarbon-using corporations developed substitutes for them.

Just as corporations did not replace chlorofluorocarbons without legal coercion, the auto manufacturers will not lower CO2 emissions without similar coercion. Some of you seem to think that GM should continue business as usual until the last minute. Such behavior would be a stupid business strategy and bad world citizenship.

In 1962, President Kennedy set a goal of landing a man on the Moon and returning him safely home. At the time, the US had not even placed a human into orbit. Some seven years later in 1969, the US met President Kennedy’s goal. For the most part, the technology to meet the US mandate for CO2 emissions is here today. The problems are logistical and economic. However, we have ample time to meet the mandate if we start now.

Piablo, the only reason I know anything about global, warming is it comes in handy when I hit on loose leftie-liberal hottie chicks at a bar who need someone to affirm their idiocy and are willing to have sex in return.

When hitting on chicks, the motto is “Fake Like You Care.”

^^^LMAO! Okay, I would accept that. That is pretty good. Just be careful… When they’re chanting “NO BUSH!” they certainly aren’t talking about personal hygiene.

The used car market will be on fire if this is true. Americans will give up our large cars when Germans give up beer, Japanese give up fish and the French stop being assholes.

However I do think Bob is being an alarmist. V8 and V6 powered FWD and RWD cars get nearly the same EPA ratings.

If he wants to beat targets simply
1. Lessen the amounts of AWD vehicles.
2. Develope new technology and charge more for the cars.
3. Stop building redundant models of Base model pickups, SUVs and vans.
4. Do what the Euros do and just pay the fines.

If this is true, then it’s time for a coup. This is outrageous. Co2 is rising as a symptom of global warming not the cause. I can’t believe the herd mentality.

Just so it clear, ANY import vehicles need meet the same CAFE requirements as the domestic manufactuers.

BMW paid over 10 millions in fines in 2003 alone. See this fancy official NHTSA report here:

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/CAFE/FINES-COLLECTED-SUMMARY.html

Lets not talk out our asses here folks. Then again, if we removed all the “talkin out the ass” posts here there would only be 1 or 2 left.

Those fines are incredibly small.

rerone – I give you props for being the first person I have ever heard cite the new scientific study. Not only is Global Warming purported by a herd mentality, but it has taken on every aspect of a religion. People “believe” in it, with it’s figure heads leading the charge. There is no eveidence of it happening as it’s purported. Nobody knows how it happens, or why it happens and therefore can’t predict it. But they believe in it. And they are ready to throw money at the cause to the tune of billions.
Oceans cover roughly 70% of the earth’s surface. As we all know, bodies of water disolve gasses and the amount is dependant on the body’s temperature. As the ocean temparatures rise, it releases more gas into the atmosphere. Thus CO2 is a result of earth’s temperature rising, not the cause. The ‘herd’ will not accept this though because it challenges everything they “believe” in with global warming.

they have to realize that it’s not really the cars that have been manufactured lately that have been producing emissions..its the cars that are older than 15 years

I do want newer emissions regulations to have a positive effect on the environment, but I never thought it would affect something as far removed from emissions as a manufacturer not being able to produce rear wheel drive cars.

What does this mean? They realized their models sucked and got ready to make good cars again and now they can’t because no engine in their inventory can make 34mpg? Just for fanboy comparison, I wonder if Subaru and Mitsubishi can make STi’s and Evolutions that get 34mpg and still have their stunning performance.

If the government’s regulations are preventing the manufacture of passenger cars that are driven at the rear wheels, I have a huge problem with this. How on earth is it so impossible to have a 34mpg rear wheel drive car that isn’t underpowered and overpriced for its class?

I pulled the following from Boortz.com.. explains my point better than I can right now.
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Friday – February 2, 2007
WHY AM I SKEPTICAL ABOUT MAN-MADE GLOBAL WARMING?

A 21-page report from something called the “Intergovernmental Panel On Climate Change” has been released today…in Paris, no less…and as expected, it’s predictions are dire. According to the report: “Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, as is now evident from observations of increases in global average air and ocean temperatures, widespread melting of snow and ice, and rising global mean sea level.” Yeah right…we’ve heard all this before.

But the biggest bombshell here is this one: no matter what we do, global warming will not be reversed. It will go on for centuries, according to this report. The sea levels will continue to rise as polar ice caps melt. So I guess if Al Gore wins his Nobel Peace Prize, we’ll still experience global warming. So much for riding to work everyday in your hybrid car…it’s not doing a thing. The situation is futile, according to this report.

But really, it makes sense that the global warming crowd would come to this conclusion. After all, global warming is a religion. The anti-capitalist enviro-nazis don’t ever want the problem to be solved. After all, if global warming were to be solved tomorrow, what would they blame the United States for? They’d have to find some other reason.

Sorry .. I’m still a skeptic. In no particular order here are just a few of the reasons why I’m not buying this man-made global warming scare:

* The United Nations is anti-American and anti-Capitalist. In short .. I don’t trust them. Not a bit. The UN would eagerly engage in any enterprise that would weaken capitalist economies around the world.

* Because after the fall of the Soviet Union and worldwide Communism many in the anti-capitalist movement moved to the environmental movement to continue pursuing their anti-free enterprise goals. Many of the loudest proponents of man-made global warming today are confirmed anti-capitalists.

* Because the sun is warmer .. and all of these scientists don’t seem to be willing to credit a warmer sun with any of the blame for global warming.

* The polar ice caps on Mars are melting. How did our CO2 emissions get all the way to Mars?

* It was warmer in the 1930s across the globe than it is right now.

* It wasn’t all that long ago that these very same scientists were warning us about “global cooling” and another approaching ice age?

* How much has the earth warmed up in the last 100 years? One degree. Now that’s frightening.
* Because that famous “hockey stick” graph that purports to show a sudden warming of the earth in the last few decades is a fraud. It ignored previous warming periods … left them off the graph altogether.

* The infamous Kyoto accords exempt some of the world’s biggest CO2 polluters, including China and India.

* The Kyoto accords can easily be seen as nothing less than an attempt to hamstring the world’s dominant capitalist economies.

* Because many of these scientists who are sounding the global warming scare depend on grant money for their livelihood, and they know the grant money dries up when they stop preaching the global warming sermon.

* Because global warming “activists” and scientists seek to punish those who have different viewpoints. If you are sure of your science you have no need to shout down or seek to punish those who disagree.

* What happened to the Medieval Warm Period? In 1996 the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued a chart showing climatic change over a period of 1000 years. This graph showed a Medieval warming period in which global temperatures were higher than they are today. In 2001 the IPCC issued another 1000 year graph in which the Medieval warming period was missing. Why?

* Why has one scientist promoting the cause of man-made global warming been quoted as saying “we have to get rid of the medieval warming period?”

* Why is the ice cap on the Antarctic getting thicker if the earth is getting warmer?

* In the United State, the one country with the most accurate temperature measuring and reporting records, temperatures have risen by 0.3 degrees centigrade over the past 100 years. The UN estimate is twice that.

* There are about 160,000 glaciers around the world. Most have never been visited or measured by man. The great majority of these glaciers are growing, not melting.

* Side-looking radar interferometry shows that the ise mass in the West Antarctic is growing at a rate of over 26 gigatons a year. This reverses a melting trend that had persisted for the previous 6,000 years.

* Rising sea levels? The sea levels have been rising since the last ice age ended. That was 12,000 years ago. Estimates are that in that time the sea level has risen by over 300 feet. The rise in our sea levels has been going on long before man started creating anything but natural CO2 emissions.

* Like Antarctica, the interior of Greenland is gaining ice mass.

* Over the past 3,000 years there have been five different extended periods when the earth was measurably warmer than it is today.

* During the last 20 years — a period of the highest carbon dioxide levels — global temperatures have actually decreased. That’s right … decreased.

* Why did a reporter from National Public Radio refuse to interview David Deming, an associate professor at the University of Oklahoma studying global warming, after his testimony to the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee unless Deming would state that global warming was being caused by man?

* Why are global warming proponents insisting that the matter is settled and that no further scientific research is needed? Why are they afraid of additional information?

* On July 24, 1974 Time Magazine published an article entitled “Another Ice Age?” Here’s the first paragraph:

“As they review the bizarre and unpredictable weather pattern of the past several years, a growing number of scientists are beginning to suspect that many seemingly contradictory meteorological fluctuations are actually part of a global climatic upheaval. However widely the weather varies from place to place and time to time, when meteorologists take an average of temperatures around the globe they find that the atmosphere has been growing gradually cooler for the past three decades. The trend shows no indication of reversing. Climatological Cassandras are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the weather aberrations they are studying may be the harbinger of another ice age.”

HEY EVERYONE, GLOBAL WARMING IS FAKE! I READ IT ON A BLOG ON THE INTERNET. IT MUST BE TRUE!

Create the same thing BMW has on the M6, The M button. Even the new Suzuki GSXR 1000 has 3 seperate tunes ready at the flick of a switch

Drastically reduce all performance aspects of the car in one setting to make all the tree huggers happy and have the all out performance tune.

Lutz reminds me of me, looking for something in the fridge. If I can’t see immediately it must not be there.

Screw global warming. I want a 400 horsepower Pontiac that will get rubber in 3 of the 6 gears, pull 13 flat in the quarter and bust 175 on top end. My 300/SRT8 is an auto and I am sick of it…….thr auto trans that is…………LOL…………..global warming my ass. Al Gore dreamed it up wearing his tin foil hat in the microwave.

HEY EVERYONE! GLOBAL WARMING IS REAL – I READ A COMMENT FROM AN EXPERT ON AN INTERNET BLOG. IT MUST BE TRUE!

Kaptain – Great post. I should stop posting links and put the facts right in front of their faces. It’s true, Global Warming is a religion. Random Jerk is proof positive. Challenge their beliefs and see what happens. It’s one thing to change opinion, but changing someone’s religion…. Next thing you know, the commie enviromentalists will be leading the modern Crusdaes against us. How is that for irony????

Eactly Kaptain – so if you can see the stupidity present here why does your opinion on Global Warming get copied and pasted from a radio talk show host blog who thinks that Mars is relevent to the debate? There are plenty of sheep here as it is, aren’t you embarressed that your Shepard is a radio talk show host?

The solution is simple. Since the Democrats love taxes and just enacted $400 billion of them by not making the 2002 tax cuts permanent (including all those college savings accounts), just double or triple the gas tax and do away with CAFE. That way consumers have their choice and the penalty is built into the MPG of each specific vehicle. CAFE just keeps bureaucrats employed and denies the public opportunities to buy great cars.
Maybe we’ll just have to wait until the sun enters a cooling cycle to get the public to realize that global warming is 90% sun and 10% human. Also, car emmissions contribute to something like less than 5% of CO2 emissions (unsure of the exact % so someone correct me if I’m off). I hope all those liberal democrats in Detroit are happy now. Looks like another round of reduction in workforce is inline for the UAW.

Hey Random Jerk, you are wrong. Kaptain’s comments come from a freakin MIT scientist! I’ll pit him as an expert as compared to any of your UN and environmentally backed experts any day and anywhere. MIT=only the brightest mindsin the world. UN/Gov’t scientists = just more government lackies sucking off taxpayer funded research grants interested in perpetuating their sucking at everything. I’m not embarrassed for Kaptain, I’m embarrassed that there are people like you who only know how to call people names and degrade them because you can not defend your position with fact. Yes, the globe is warming, Yes, humans may contribute to it since we produce CO2 but none of it is fact. Just calling it fact doesn’t make it anymore of a fact than the fact that the sun goes through warming and cooling cycles.

I probably could have been more clear on the last post. Short point is global warming caused by humans isn’t any more real than global warming caused by the sun.

The 1999 chrysler 300M had FWD was shaped like a doorstop had a 3.5L engine and got 18/26. The 2005 300 touring is shaped like a proper American car, has the same engine and weighs more yet reciebes 19/27. The only 300c model subject to the gas guzzler tax is the SRT8 which is more economical than some V^ powered SUVs. Bull**** Bob Lutz is just trying to prevent any rises in fuel economy and any new laws from affecting his businness, which is understandable.

Piablo is right. As much as I hate politics, it’s everywhere now. I’m all for safe, clean cars and I think without the government regs it wouldn’t get done. However, if you think driving a Civic as opposed to a Lucerne is better for the environment you are delusional. Further, if you think the difference in the amount of CO2 from these cars has an impact on the temperature of the Earth -you are delusional. The Earth itself generates far more CO2 than we ever could. If you really care for the Earth, stop driving cars and get on a bicycle forum because cars are NEVER going to be as clean, or safe, or as efficient as you’d like.

“Piablo”, unionized or not, the line workers are getting paid far too much. It’s an issue that should have been dealt with long ago. It’s not my job to resolve it, only point it out as a factor.

Comparing apples to apples is difficult and adding safety as the cherry on top, as being engineered into today’s cars, cars are NOT “heavier by a long shot”. Granted the following isn’t a perfect comparison, but you’ll get the idea: 1979 Dodge Omni weighs about the same as a 2006 Hyundai Accent ~ 2200-2300 lbs. … and I won’t bother with things like MUCH improved fuel economy and MUCH lower emissions.

Government regulations aren’t put in place to hurt the majority. Instead, these regulations have saved countless lives, lowered emissions (which, ignoring the severity of global warming, is a good thing), and increased fuel economy while also increasing performance.

It seems like “same old” when one compares what happened in the 70s to today. If (rather, when) gas prices are possibly double what they are today, people will look to someone for an answer as to what to do about fuel and many will look back to the 70s. If the manufacturers don’t do something, the government will.

As to your clouded view regarding people like myself, our “knee-jerk reactions” and our “simple-minded solutions” … maybe you should look back at history and learn something. The world doesn’t revolve around people like you. If it did, we’d all be driving gas guzzling, V8 polluters because there’s no need for progress.

Just because its on the internet dosen’t mean its true. You are the lemmings.

Interesting comments. Is global warming a fact and will it have dire consequences for the residents of this plant? Maybe… but what if…?

What is a fact is that oil is a finite resource, regardless of whether or not there is enough supply to last our lifetimes or not, it will run out. Period. So, we have a choice. We can merrily go along saying, screw the future it’s all about me and what I want right now, or we can actually try to be responsible (not an easy thing for the human species) and say, we should try to use as little of this finite resource as possible.

To the actual question of the article, or rather what it leads to, can GM produce a competitive small car? In the short term, probably not. They certainly haven’t been succesful in the field of small cars in recent history. I wonder though, how successful GM could be in producing a small, energy efficient, reliable car, if they threw the same resources at it that they throw at making and developing large vehicles?

That being said, will it change the market? Probably not as evidenced by many of the comments left here.

I’ve always been fond of a quote by Whitley Streiber. “Will there be life on this plant? Yes, Earth supports life, it just may not be us.”

“Small-car mileage only counts toward CAFE if you build them here, and you can’t build small cars here at a profit,” Lutz said.”

Basically, each MFG get 2 CAFE calculations – “domestic fleet (75%+ parts from NA)” and “foreign fleet”.

GM builds small cars, but they are calculated into their “foreign fleet” as they are made overseas. This keeps them from using Korean made Aveo’s to boost the CAFE average of their “domestic fleet” where all the 900’s (and future Zetas )are accounted for.

You can thank the UAW for this aspect of CAFE law:

http://energycommerce.house.gov/reparchives/108/Hearings/05032006hearing1854/Reuther.pdf

“It’s not my job to resolve it, only point it out as a factor.”

Exactly my point Impulsive. THAT is knee jerk and half assed. If it’s not your job to resolve anything or contribute, keep your half assed comments to yourself. And since you had nothing else worth commenting on in your response, I’ll leave it at that.

“Piablo”, like the Circuit City employees who got turfed because they made too much, I hope all those line workers aren’t on the streets tomorrow … if it was up to me, they would be. Not “knee-jerk” and not “half ass”, just the way business works.

As for your pathetic response, it figures, you’re pathetic.

“Eactly Kaptain – so if you can see the stupidity present here why does your opinion on Global Warming get copied and pasted from a radio talk show host blog who thinks that Mars is relevent to the debate? There are plenty of sheep here as it is, aren’t you embarressed that your Shepard is a radio talk show host?” – Comment by Random Jerk, posted on April10 at 2:53 pm
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The point behind Mr. Boortz mentioning Mars is that casts doubt on your religion that Global Warming is all America’s fault. Of all the points you could have dismissed, you pick one of the easier ones to defend. I’ll be grateful for small favors and return it likewise with a free cluepon: Mars *IS* relevant because it’s a fact that the temperature is changing there as well. If we’re going to come up with an explanation for something happening in place “A” (Earth) and the same is happening in place “B” (Mars) then why is it suddenly “not relevant” that the same explanation be consistent with both locales? Further, why does asking the question in the first place provoke such outrage and and hostility from you people? You don’t care about finding the truth, your kind is only interested in shouting down all opposition of any kind in order to make it look like everyone agrees. Mars isn’t on the other side of the galaxy, it’s in the same planetary system as ours, orbiting the same sun. But of course you knew that. Just like you know that there’s more to Global Warming than what Al Gore says. What with you not being among the sheep and him not your Shepard and all. So how ’bout it, genius? If America / CO2 / GM / Bu$H LiED! / conservatives, et al are responsible for global warming then perhaps you’d care to employ your superior intellect to explain to the rest of us just how it’s possible Mars can be experiencing very similar changes as Earth with none of us there in the first place. You could say that increased solar activity might have something to do with it but then that would again cast doubt on your godless religion, probably because you’d have a hard time selling the notion that anyone has control over the sun, direct or otherwise. I’m not saying man isn’t playing a role here, but I am saying that his role, should it be a factor at all, isn’t the disaster you and your ilk claim it is. If you were interested in thinking this through as opposed to going with your feelings, you’d have a head start over the “sheep” of which you imply your are not a member. Think for yourself, can you? Prove it with a logical and consistent argument and less caterwauling nonsense.
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Concerning my source being a radio show host, feel free to refute his points instead of harping on the default leftie position of attacking the messenger.

I thought I told Piablo to stop singlehandedly melting Antarctica.

While the default conservative position is blindly accepting b.s. propaganda.

LamborghiniZ,

Thanks in abundance for your stunning insight. I’m relieved you elected to publicly demonstrate that liberals such as yourself can contribute to this debate with meaningful reasoning instead of just posting a highly subjective quips with no substance of any kind. I’m especially impressed that you were able to likewise restrain yourself from proving correct my clearly inaccurate assumption that libs attack the messenger when they can’t play on the same level as grown adults.. as opposed to posting reactionary emotional drivel that couldn’t be further off-topic if you were talking about a bowl of grape nuts. Your strategy to refute the conservative point of view is as logical as it is admirable. Who wouldn’t want to lend you any credence with intellectually superior gems such as your marvel of a post?

Lutz is a disgrace to the American public. He is basically stating that America is stupid and cannot meet and answer the call with our brain trust. Further, he is childish about the whole issue through trying to rally the enthusiasts’ on his side because he cannot make the numbers. For the love of humanity, I wish Lutz would pick one of the GM towers and jump-off to rid us of his salary-sucking-sorry-ass. Lutz, get a clue, there is no golden parachute for you—you never earned it—jump while you are ahead.

i think i will go burn a tire on the next earth day, then throw a bunch of plastic 6 pack rings off the local pier, and i will go rent an h2 to get me there.

How did this discussion get overwhelmed by talk of global warming? Is Bush a closet-Liberal who is close friends with the Middle East posse?

Do some homework: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/overview.htm

Is the CAFE standard only applied to American carmakers? If not, how are the European automakers supposed to meet the CAFE standards with all their 10mpg V12 supersedans, zero hybrids and very few models sporting anything smaller than a 6-cylinder? If anything, they have lots more to worry about than GM and Ford.

I think Lutz is telling only half the truth.. my guess is the Australian-sourced G8 and upcoming Camaro are proving to be much more expensive to produce/import than planned, and they expect to lose money on each one even before adding additional models (like the higher-volume Impala) to the mix. I don’t think we will see a RWD Impala or Buick until there are US and Canadian plants that can produce the numbers they want to sell.

See, to those doubters, “deantj” is funny AND intelligent.

I’d like to see this crowd take on Creationism and Evolution next. That’d be a fun one… Y’all get so worked up on both sides of global warming it becomes a laugh.

As for GM building efficient cars… Well it’s hilarious to me that in 1977 my father, a hydralic and electrical engineer, was with a company “advanced energy systems” that built a full size chevy van, 350ci V8, that got over 60mpg. They also had a VW Rabbit that got well over 100mpg. I rode in the Rabbit as a kid! THAT WAS 30 years ago! What’s GM’s excuse? The van and rabbit utilized hydraulically regenerative braking. They used the energy stored by braking to propel the vehicle from a stop. The engines didn’t even break off idle when accelerating from a stop. So if a tiny company of under 20 people can pull this off 30 years ago, what the hell is GM’s problem???? (OK, so the back seat of the rabbit didn’t exsist, it was full of manifolds, high pressure lines, and other bulky hardware.) But still, in 30 years of R&D by a major multi-billion dollar corperation like GM, a system like that could have been honed into a cost effective system every car would have.

I think companies like Ford and GM are almost too big for thier own good. They cannot act or react quickly. They just roll down the same status quo road, claiming great advancment and “bold moves”. Yet at the end of the day the products are just marginally more efficient on consumption and emmissions than vehicles of 15 years ago.

Hmmm… It’d be interesting to Poll the crowd claiming the Earth isn’t warming, and ask them how old is the Earth. I’m betting many would say only 6k-10k years old. Then poll those who believe it is warming, and you’d find most might respond with 4.4 – 4.5 billion years old. Again many others also believe global warming doesn’t matter anyway, as the apocolypse is at our door step. And they welcome it! Ah the old Science vs. Religion battle. I never tire of it.

Ummm wasn’t the article above talking about CAFE standards and GM’s position that those standards killed their RWD platform? Like it or not, environmental standards will continue to advance. It’s called technology forcing and it is a tool that the government has used in many economic areas to move us in s different direction.

While some appreciate the rhetoric about global warming from both sides of the aisle, how about the part where GM seems to be giving up? They do sell some vehicles with positive fuel economy features. Remember the “futuristic” Northstar engine of decades past? Shutting off cylinders at cruising speed….The company can move forward past this, they just seem content to be the “can’t do’s”

BTW the earth is 4.5 Billion Years Old

I think it was stupid of GM to pause the Zeta program. If they want to comply with mileage standards why not put diesel engines in them? You would get a 30 percent gain in gas mileage, even with the idiotic pollution regulations in place. What short sighted dribble. I just hope that they put out the G8. I think it will come out anyway, because its already all over Pontiac’s website.

I don’t have the scientific knowledge to rival some of the posters here, although I do have my doubts that all of these regulations are going to help much of anything if the climate truly shifts colder or warmer.

As far as cars are concerned, I’ve been driving a torqueless and underpowered FWD car for close to seven years now. I’m pretty tired of it and I’m not going to buy another front-drive car. I hate how it handles and I hate how it feels when I push it.

I’d rather have a severely underpowered rear wheel drive GM car than a severely underpowered front wheel drive GM car.

Lutz is such a ****y a-hole. Everything that’s ever come out of his mouth is full of ****ty, apologetic excuses. His kind of attitude is exactly the opposite from that of the Japanese carmakers, whose motto was “No excuses, just results.” Lutz needs to just retire or die already. He’s not doing GM any good.

kaptain75329, i agree.
Random Jerk, is just that, JERK.

Bravo Kaptain, well said.

Global warming crap and climate change is a political poo….see this article that exposes the idiocy of people like Gore and falicy of these left wing nuts…http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=d0235a70-33f1-45b3-803b-829b1b3542ef&k=99551

I think Lutz has something valid to say and I think he’s said it very well. CO2 is not pollution, it’s basically plant food. The more CO2 you put in the air, the more plants grow, the more oxygen they generate to balance out the O2 & CO2 ratio. Why does the automotive industry have to try to reduce a natural byproduct of any combustion. C01 is bad…but C02 posses not threat to anyone.

Why should cars attempt to limit CO2 production…and don’t give me that bull**** about global warming. I live in Canada and it’s freakin cold up here. When the automotive industry has been driven from North America to third world nations where pollution is winked at…then we’ll see the true motive of this beast called climate change.

All the cards are stacked against the North American auto industry…I think it’s a matter of time before GM/Ford/Chrysler all shrink or die off. I’ll never buy a Korean, Swedish, or German car, nor will I ever buy a Chinese car when they become the number 1 auto maker in the world, the number 1 polluter in the world, and the number 1 suppressor of human freedom.

Miket, how the hell do you know that the earth is 4.5 billion of years old. Do rocks come with little labels that say…”I’m 4.5 billion of years old”? Bet you cut and pasted this bull**** from the same source as those idiot scientists who say we’re all going to die from climate change. Where’s the facts! Where’s the empirical evidence? Don’t cite dating methods used by these idiots in lab coats cause these methods are seriously suspect.

I bet you’d be happy if we all drove little plastic pastel coloured battery powered limpwristmobiles. I”m going to start my 92 Ford F150 with a leaky exhaust manifold and run it all night so that just maybe the climate warms up around here and I can escape the freakin cold.

nice reply meekin111

CAFE is dumb.

i love global warming…come to Chicago and you’ll be an advocate as well. I’ll get in the way of anyone trying to stop it! HUMANS CAN CHANGE THE WEATHER, THE SUN’S GOT NOTHING ON US AND/OR NATURAL OCURRENCES AND SHIFTS IN ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS! How can the sun make things warm anyways??? It’s so far away! Just because it only 300000 times the size of earth??? c’mon now.

By the way, global warming is a hoax that IDIOTS buy into.

The best thing that could happen to this planet is if the human race died off. It doesn’t need us. A good pandemic is the remedy.

Maximus, I like how you roll! Especially the idiots part!!!!!!!!!!

Global warming is the new “Anna Nicol Babys Daddy” news story. Now that that bag of **** got put to bed, the idiots gotta have something to keep their minds off their useless existence. Praying to their savior Al Gore just isnt enough. They gotta irritate us regular peeps too. Sad.

Ricardo Head…………..nice work!

I guess it would be easy for me to just say something as I am not a part of that company and don’t really know how my suggestions would really affect them so I am gonna take some educated guesses at the possible solutions. Instead of emplying all your best design engineers to your foreighn brand, bring them back to the US and let them design cars for the country you should always send your very best vehicles to, the US, your home country. Instead of constantly ignoring your competitors, study what makes their cars so appealing. If the rumors on Wall Street are true and gas will indeed reach the $4 mark, then cars with better fuel economy will reign supreme. And that means the best gas sipping car engines mated to the best designed cars (Japanese/European) will get the lions share of the sales. Take apart and study European V8 engines because they constantly get better gas mileage than what you put into our American vehicles of better still, get out of the stone age and mate better transmissions to your cars that encourage better gas mileage. Four speed transmissions are not gonna get you the gas mileage you are looking for. Instead of focussing on rear wheel drive why not go in the direction of all wheel drive? It works for Subaru and Mitsubishi and their cars get great mileage and have much better styling in general. And for heavens sake, your small cars are rally good every generation but you do nothing to make them appealing to the younger buyers like Toyota (Scion, Corolla), Honda (Civic) and VW (Jetta, GTI). They offer in addition to great styling, a better range of engine/transmission choices, better body styling packages and lower prices. They killed the Cavalier off by not making it more apeealing to younger buyers an without better support and options the same will happen to the young Cobalt.

wow. this has got out of hand. complete flame war.

now, I could take the high road and promote a calm, rational discussion… but. meh. the hell with it.
screw you, hippies. You can’t convince people to buy the cars you want them to buy, so you have to resort to forcing it on them.
I want my v8 rwd muscle. you can’t replace it with a 2.0l 4 banger.
I’m all for efficiency, but allow variety and the let the public chose.
4bangers already outsell v8s. and that’s fine.
people will buy what they view fits best for them.
it’s rather arrogant to think that you know what’s best for them.

What a stupid argument from Lutz. He speaks as if humans stopped evolving, then he blames it on legislation.

Look, the Middle East is in a shambles, we have no idea how much oil Saudi Arabia has, Mexico’s production has peaked, and Canada needs it’s shale to exchange on the global market…screw America’s desires.

We’re inefficient. If Californians and most Western Europeans can halve their electricity usage and have the same or better standard of living than the rest of the USA, why stop there? Transportation has been stuck, and as much as I love classic and vintages vehicles, for the average person there is so much more we can do. These tired arguments spouting “we can’t do better!’ is just whining because they fail to listen to their own engineers. It’s absurd that a car in 2007 cannot get 50+ mpg AND still perform like a true sports car.

I’m with Lutz on this one. These proposed CAFE averages are simply unworkable.

Just stick a smaller engine in those RWDs and let’s get going already. Damn it, Lutz! How about that new 300hp direct injection 3.6L V6 for the upcoming Cadi CTS, for instance?

Excellent post Piablo – it helps to explain much of the reason that I’m rather annoyed with this development from GM myself. All this hysteria around global warming doesn’t allow for a civil discussion on the issue. Things would be so much easier if the powers that be would simply consider the issue in a rational and methodical way, but instead their leadership is demonstrated by taking action without the science to back it up. They are more interested in pandering to clueless voters than actually thinking logically.
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Concerning the Zeta platform, I’m not anywhere near convinced it’s dead – we know the Camaro’s coming (like GM would ever be stupid enough to pull it) but “everything after that” seems a little suspect. Honestly, is GM really serious about pulling the Pontiac G8? I don’t think so, and here’s why: I’m not convinced GM is going to halt everything Zeta when they have already come so far on so short a distance with it; not after revealing the new Pontiac at the NYIAS to great fanfare. Granted, the revealed car was “technically” a concept, but GM *formally* announced it’s production intentions — and provided manufacturing specifics — taking positions not normally associated with concepts that are not going anywhere any time soon like the Volt. Accordingly, I’m not entirely sure they’re planning to pull it from Pontiac’s lineup just just, especially considering the public and media response has been far more enthusiastic than it ever was for the already well-received Saturn Aura. If the Aura could go into production as it was, then the G8 should practically be a done deal, particularly when you consider that GM already has the production capability in place, unlike the retooling that was required for the Aura. To be sure, I’d be disappointed if they decided to kill it, but even GM has to know what this car could do for them and their image; the business value for this product is key and simply too compelling to sacrifice on the alter of political correctness.. and I think GM knows it. The G8 has the potential, along with other forthcoming products, to give GM the capitol it needs to make a go of meeting these hypothetical requirements.
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Concerning other Zeta cars in the pipeline such as the very possible Impala redesign, well, we haven’t *officially* seen any of them yet from the General, so I can see Lutz’s warning potentially carrying some weighty consequences here. But in that scenario, there is another point to consider that I have not yet seen on this topic: these so-called new requirements are little else beyond government proposals at this point – they are not law, and I’ve read nothing over the last couple of days that would indicate they will be soon. So while I can see GM taking note here and “pausing” accordingly, I honestly cannot see them wasting hundreds of millions of dollars and as yet untold resources — all on the basis of what essentially boils down to the political equivalent of a juicy rumor in the office. I’m betting GM can’t see themselves sincerely doing that just yet either.

Yeah, I wouldn’t want to talk global warming if I were you either Impulsive. Kinda hard to talk about something with no evidence, huh? So, you WANT gas to be $4/gallon? That way we can all drive cheap econo-boxes like you do? You must drive one, or you’d have no room to talk. Get a bicycle and get off your high-horse. We all know what CAFE is. (by the way, what’s the long hiatus you’re refering to?)
I appreciate your language and name-calling too; it really adds credibility to your argument and let’s us know the kind of person it’s coming from. BTW, 4$/gallon won’t deter me from buying what I want to drive. Flame on.

Attention anyone who is thinking about dropping out of school or getting hooked on crack: Unless you too want to be the author of mindless ranting like Impulsive, stay in school and get your education.

Impulsive : repeat yourself one more time.. maybe it’ll catch on this time.
You want to reduce foreign dependency on oil? Why, that’s fantastic! So do I! Let’s invest in alternative energy, and conservation with minimal to no compromise (otherwise known as increasing efficiency: like flapperless toilets or compact florescent light bulbs.)
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I’m all for increasing gas mileage too, so long as it can be done sensibly and realistically. Diesel is a good start, better option than hybrids, but the same greenies who make that option impossible because diesel isn’t clean enough for them are the same ones who won’t admit hybrid cars require more energy and pollute the environment more than a Hummer on the same line before either is ever sold. Oh yes, the hybrid will impact the environment less during it’s lifetime, right? During which it can go what, 3 to 5 years before it needs new batteries? And then those used batteries are supposed to be recyclable. Yea.. just wait ’till you find out just how little we can actually reuse from those batteries.
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I think it’s fair to say that pretty much everyone can agree with this: we want solutions to help the environment AND reduce our dependence on foreign oil. That’s admirable, but said solutions have to make sense. To get these solutions to reality, we need to make choices. We don’t get to pick our options, we have to work with what we’re given and deal with the trade-offs as best we can. You want to reduce dependence on foreign oil, so tell me, in order to accomplish that goal, what price are you willing to pay? Would you support drilling in ANWR as one of the things we can do (while we implement other solutions) even with methods that allow us to do so while causing minimal impact to the environment? Or is ANY impact of drilling in ANWR — no matter HOW SMALL — unacceptable to you? THAT is your choice. You may not like it, but running away from it doesn’t free you from the issue at hand, and for far too long that’s exactly what so many whining hippie imbeciles have been doing. Such people go on and on and on with every possible angle and stand in the way of one solution after the other and then they have the unmitigated gall to claim the rest of us are the retards holding up progress. The only solutions you people ever endorse are those that you would otherwise oppose if they didn’t 1) call on yet even MORE Government interference and 2) punish progress by holding back the very economy that makes the progress you want possible in the first place. Adding insult to injury, too many of these type people demand it here or in Europe but not “poor” nations like China – they always get a free pass of exemption from your charming “solutions”. I wonder why.
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Read and understand: nothing happens by Government passing a feel-good law. It’s the companies that innovate at the point of Government’s gun in an attempt to comply with said law that actually make things happen. Now, I understand the argument about Government encouraging progress – in many cases I’m generally in favor of it. Be that as it may, there is indeed a stark, contrasting difference between providing *incentive* and _forcing_ “progress” via the threat crippling fines. If Government has to be involved, why not have them help with one of the most critical prime factors holding up the release of better cars? Why not have the government free up cash flow for GM and others? A example might be tax breaks for companies that invest in research designed to improve efficiency or advance alternative fuel technology. But then when that happens, you people scream “tax cuts for the rich!” “Corporate loopholes!!” NOTHING is EVER good enough for you patently spoiled children. You make it sound like fuel efficiency will increase like magic just because the government says “make it so!” The rest of us are supposed to shut up lest we deal with more of your feigned anger and crusading for causes nowhere near as dire as you want them to be.
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It comes down to what you value in a car. I hope you’re willing to give up something for that increased efficiency, because it won’t come without a trade-off from an engineering standpoint, but then I’ve already explained that: performance, price, or eco-friendly. Pick any two.
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To the point of hoping gas prices go through the roof, you’re not the only intellectually-bankrupt fool praying for this. Selfish, short-sighted morons who profess this nonsense don’t want to understand that the price at the pump is not where the increases stop. Putting aside how middle and lower classes economics would be primarily affected, the secondary economic factors are real and can get serious if the price increases before the market can adjust. Such drastic increases in the price of refined oil affect EVERY business that has to pay for it as a matter of operating costs…. costs, which in turn, get passed on to their customers. The rest of us. I hope you like paying more for your groceries, your utilities, your flights, and anything else you buy where oil had a role in it’s production or delivery.

You libs are really something. “THE PEOPLE COME FIRST! NO MATTER WHAT! …unless it’s animals, trees, criminals on death row…………”
Ignorant asswipes the lot of you.

“Ricardo”, compared to the daily vomit you eject onto these threads, my error was easy to interpret.

“Piablo”’s Primary School … where chimps discuss, ad nauseum, the colour of their poo when the discussion at hand is basic mathematics.

I’ve made the mistake of acknowledging him again. Doing so only excites his severe narcissistic personality disorder. I suggest ignoring him, he will only get worse.

Impulsive – Word yo. The absolute, hands-down, best part of reading your posts is that *you* could read them out loud in front of a large mirror and still not half-notice what the rest of see when we read your hysterical pseudo-intellectual bellyaching bull**** frantically begging to pass for anything remotely respectable, much less credible.

All sarcasm aside, I mean the following with the utmost sincerity: please, please stick around until GMnumberone4ever gets back. Every interactive community website needs a court jester.

Thanks for steppin’ up dawg.

Piablo – noted for future reference and thanks to you as well.

Piablo – one other thing: if you do find that article indicating that the current upcoming Zeta cars (Camaro and G8) are safe, please make a point of posting the link here. If it’s print only, let me know the magazine and I’ll go out and buy for $4 it if I have to.
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I know the G8 is sticking around based solely on my own personal analysis of the situation, but some journalistic validation would definitely be appreciated. Thanks again!

“Kaptain”, I was going to have a civil discussion with you until you broad-stroked me with the “ignorant asswipes” title and grouped me with “those” people who disagree with you … you’re quick to jump to conclusions and label anyone who doesn’t see through your eyes … guess what, idiot, it’s not your world. And your eyes seem to need a new prescription because nothing you have posted has anything to do with what I’ve stated.

Reread my post today at 11:34 am.

Was it sensible and realistic to institute CAFE in the 70s? If so, is it sensible and realistic to increase those standards in this era?

I have NEVER stated I am anti-gasoline, anti-diesel, anti-hybrid, or anti-anything … what I am for is progress, in general, and in this case, more importantly, lessening the dependence on OIL.

I don’t care to get into the minutiae of subsidies, fines (which presently aren’t crippling for those not meeting limits), loopholes and so on which could be done another time and place. The point I made was CAFE is needed and without it things could be much worse if/when gas prices do rise in all aspects of life, not just your refuelling cost. It worked in the 70s and 80s and it can work now.

As to your point about being “intellectually bankrupt” … dude, you’re dumber than I thought you were. I’ve already touched on that subject in my post to “Me” at 1:29 pm. But thanks for your oh-so-necessary grade one understanding of basic economics.

In fact, your entire post was an absolute waste of time since it doesn’t address me … instead, you discuss like you’re trying to convince a group of people like yourself. Repeat after me: I will NOT post endlessly about topics that have nothing to do with the thread or other posters and I will try to control my habit of generalizing and labelling people when I have NO clue about what they post.

Thanks, Kaptain ****head.

“Piablo”, you looked STUPID arguing with Dean many months ago, you looked STUPID arguing with me recently, and you look STUPID arguing with me today … you are WORTHLESS. You are NOTHING. You are sewage waste.

Looks like Kaptain ****head is next on my “schooled” list. Pathetic monkeys.

Imp, I typically wouldn’t respond to your nonsense, but since we have your aneurysm pulsating now… First, you brought up $4/gallon -not me- in your well-wishing remember? Second, Thanks for the link. You can cut and paste. I told you already I know what CAFE is. How many times do I need to say it and how can I spell it any clearer for you? And third, we won’t really know what you drive so we can only speculate you drive the “econo-friendly” Prius or the like. If not, you as hypocritical as you are repulsive. Go get on your yoga mat.

^sry “…you are as hypocritical…”

LOL. A clue for you Imp: your opinions would have a lot more clout on this forum if you could have a decent, un-emotionally-charged discussion. That’s probably too much to ask of you. It’s hard to be an emotional basket-case and get your point across at the same time (thus your name I guess). I know you think you’re more enlightened. You probably are smart, but name-calling, cursing, and little childish jabs say the contrary. I used to be like you actually. Anyway, I’m done with you here. Flame on.

A clue for you, “Me”, never judge a book by its cover.

I come here, more knowledgeable than 95% of the posters, and have fun. I don’t think I’m more enlightened, I AM more enlightened. Look back to any serious discussion I’ve ever had … it started out as a civil one and turned into what you see here above. And in the end, it’s clear as day that my position is correct.

When worthless (and I mean that truly), uninformed, and usually agenda-driven MONKEYS (like those posting above) who have nothing better to do than jump on others because they “believe” they know what’s right for them come and spew ****, I’ll spew back harder.

I am not probably smart, I am VERY smart and I’ll call people what I want, when I want … usually in response to being attacked. The “basket cases”, in fact, are people like those who have posted in the last 24 hours here … yapping like they know something when they don’t, then defending an utterly pathetic position because someone in the right confronts them.

Sorry, but you were NEVER like me. Looking at your posts, you were never half of me. See you another thread.

Hey imp, I have two easy win-win answers to that freakin haze over your city that you hate:
…. 1) You can move, or
…. 2) You can have an aneurysm.

Either way you are free of the problem and society benefits, and just think of the favor you’ll be doing for the next delusional retard that needs a bed at the psycho ward.

Imp, did you burst a vessel yet, or was the pop sound just more flatulence being emitted from your brain (thus contributing to glabal warming)?

That was me ****ting on your head, monkey. Have you EVER posted anything of value? Seriously.

LMFAO!

Ya know, Impulsive… you really seem to want America to get off that foreign oil habit.

That’s good.

So, I take it that you support coal-gasification technologies that transform coal into oil. I mean, after all, America has some of the world’s largest reserves of coal. So turning our coal into oil would put a serious hurt onto OPEC. Not to mention that this technology has been around since WWII, what with the German army fueling much of it’s war machine with that coal-oil.

And you’d support the new thermal depolymerization technology that lets us convert nearly any organic waste into carbon, water, and fuel oil. You’d be for that, right? Imagine all the oil we’d get from processing city sewage treatment plants. So, you’d want that, too?

And getting more domestic oil, no matter how little… you’d support that, right? I mean, every barrel of oil we produce is one less barrel of foreign oil, right? So, since you want us off the evil foreign oil, domestic oil’s a good thing. So you must be in favor of drilling in ANWAR and off the coasts. That would get us more domestic oil, and thus, keep us from having to buy that nasty foreign stuff.

So you’re in favor of all that, right? Because if you aren’t, you surely aren’t supporting every option America has to get off that BAAAD foreign oil.

Which would, of course, have you saying one thing, but doing another.

And that’s the definition of, what’s the word? Oh, yes. Hypocrite.

last word

What, are you 4, “Head-giver”? More evidence of your never having posted anything of value, **** stain.

I don’t know about the rest of you guys, but I can’t help but picture Impulsive bearing a strong resemblence to Stan’s older sister in South Park.

“Are you staring at my head gear!?”

You want to see CO2 cut back quickly? Ban those freaking gas powered leaf blowers! Each puts out more pollution than 100 cars. They are worthless too, all the lawn jockeys do is blow dirt from one side to the other.
So how come enviro’s in California arent clamoring to ban those monster polluters?

Boys Boys Boys whaddafuk’s goin on in this cyberhole? jizz louise !! 4 fuks sake it really takes forever and a day for an enthusiast to read all this shiit only to realize there’s more testosterone an sexual tension inside this thread than well let’s just say..feels like a typical New York City bathhouse wet sauna in here…whut da fuk?

relax guyz there’ll be enuff 09 Camaros 4 every 1..those Canadians CAW bees from “the ‘Shwa” will build ‘em for you..and you will come..just remember to take the chill pill as prescribed..sheesh..where’s BoB LutZ when you REALLY need him ???

“steve”, those blowers were a big topic of discussion in Toronto these last couple of weeks but the city voted not to ban them.

Funny you mention them … “Head-giver” blows and pollutes as much, if not more, than those useful tools. Hey “Head-giver”, why do I honestly believe you are one of those illegal aliens? If you want, I can hire you for 50 cents above min. wage to rake my yard with your comb.

In my opinion, it’s easy for people that know little about cars, (I’m gonna assume that Bush and most political types fall into this category), to put these types of restrictions on the engineering, etc. You could argue that Lutz is being a baby, but come on. Like he said, why wouldn’t he want their automobiles to be more fuel efficient? I feel like Bush’s agenda is backwards, and this is a feel good attempt to make him seem concerned with the enviroment. Hopefully it all works itself out in the end.

“hateful”, smoking is banned in many places these days and I’m happy I don’t have to inhale that ****. I shouldn’t have to see and breathe smog either.

But like I’ve said, the market will dictate the direction … when gas prices climb as they did in the 70s, and there’s nothing wrong with the government stepping in to steer the ignorant and unwilling, in this case.

In my opinion, it’s easy for those “laissez-faire” people to continue in their failing ways.

No, “shadow”, the 100+ posts about global warming displays their ignorance.

Good post, bud.

Too little, too late.

What have the domestics done over the past couple of decades … built ****. Now their reputations have caught up with them. Sure, the timing of rising gas prices isn’t ideal but where were these offerings a decade ago?

I don’t feel any regret or sorrow for these failing companies. The market works to flush out the losers and the next decade will show us who deserves to thrive in the future.

Adapt or fail.

Impulsive wants to get us off foreign oil…

… but when shown examples of the technology and other means to do so, he gets mad.

Hmmm, maybe Impulsive doesn’t support the means to actually get us off foreign oil.

‘Cause if he did support it, then he’d support the ways in which to do it.

Which is another case of ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ mentality.

AKA – textbook definition of hypocrisy.

I hate hypocrits. I really do.

(Haha! Last word!)