Diesels are just a terrible idea. Volkswagen, just announced at a Dealers meeting that there will be no VW diesels offered for the 2007 model year in the USA. Its about time they wized up.

Steve, if you have more info on the diesel announcement please contact us. We’ve already reported on that story once before.

Diesels are a terrible idea, take a look at 20 year diesels on the road today, is that what people want to look deal with in 20 years. I seriously doubt VW/Audi diesels will be more refined than older Mercedes.

To add to my first comment, after checking with my source…the story goes, Volkswagen is transitioning to common rail diesel technology beginning with the Jetta in July 2008, so it appears that the absence of Volkswagen Diesels for 2007 is because they are transitioning away from the Pumpe Duse, and not for political/legal issues.

It’s interesting that someone who obviously sells VWs hates the diesel since, here in Canada at least, the TDI is what seems to be keeping VW sales afloat. My Dad has one and the engine is the best part of the car, the quality of everything else has been a constant headache. The current diesels sold and the future CRD models such as those in Europe will NOT look like diesels from 1985 in 20 years, please give the engineers some credit. I think sporty diesels are a good idea, and a lot of people are going to be amazed at Audi’s R10.

No, I don’t sell Volkswagens or have anything to do with the automotive industry, although I might buy a Volkswagen Eos if the retractible hardtop is reliable, but that’s beside the point. The point is, if I claim diesels suck, I should know something about them. Mechanically diesels are fine, but its simply a waste of time and resources developing that technology. its just mind blowing to me that there isn’t a Manhattan project scale inititave to move passenger cars away from fossil fuels and onto something smarter like Hydrogen internal combustion engines. And don’t kid yourself thinking 20% bio-diesel blends are helping with fossil fuel dependance. If I drove a Kenworth, or an Electromotive Locomotive, diesel would be fine. Its simply time to move away from fossil fuels in the passenger car segment.

Since I wrote the article in question, I figured I’d chime in. Thanks for the link to it.

I’ve driven the Touareg V10 TDI, the now replaced A8 4.0 TDI (now a 4.2), the Passat 2.5 TDI, the US Spec Jetta, Golf and Beetle TDI, the US Spec Passat TDI, the BMW 530d and the BMW X5 3.0d.

Comparing these cars to a 20 year old Mercedes or 20-year old anything suggest to me you simply don’t have experience with modern diesel products. They’re high in torque, don’t smoke nearly as much, and provide great gas mileage.

Toyota claims Washington to Detroit on one tank of gas. David Kiley (then of USA Today) tested that and I think made it about to Cleveland…. it seems regenerative braking doesn’t do all that much during highway cruising. Contrarily, Kiley returned in a Golf TDI… the entire way.

Are diesels the long term future? No, you’re right, Hydrogen Fuel Cells are probably the way to go, but technology and distribution infrastructure are not there yet. For now, hybrids and diesels are the best stop-gap… preferably hybrid diesels. VW had a Golf in the last Challenge Bibendum that was a prototype hybrid diesel that pulled over 70 mpg.

The other trick of course is to make these new fuels be sexy. We all know that high efficiency cars will get us further with the fuel we have left, but we also know that Chrysler can’t build gas-slurping HEMIs fast enough. Selling frugal cars that are also high performance could do wonders in winning over the automotive enthusiast. That’s why I pitched the idea of a DS range of Audis.

Thanks for the comments guys.

This article shows the typical overexcitement for Diesels. It says a Diesel S4 would handle like a gas one, despite the significantly heavier engine in the Diesel. The Diesel has a much thicker block (due to higher compression ratios), and a couple turbos and intercoolers of additonal weight. Additionally, it is likely an iron block (aluminum block Diesels exist, but the S4 had an iron block until 3 years ago in turbocharged gas form, so I don’t see Audi jumping on the aluminum block outside of the R9 for a while). This will add a lot of weight which will hurt the handling, performance and city mpg. Audis are already nose-heavy, performance applications can’t take a lot more weight up there.

As to the Prius and Golf TDi comparison, the Golf TDi has a 15.4 gallon tank, the Prius has a 11.9 gallon tank. Are you surprised the TDi can go farther in highway cruising? How is it per gallon? In real world use?

Hybrid Diesels are a non-starter in the US. The US government gave Ford and GM (together) a grant a couple years ago to develop one, and they did. Unfortunately, the government also changed the laws before the car was even shown such that Diesels cannot be classified as low-emission vehicles and thus aren’t eligible for any kind of tax break, carpool lane usage, etc. If you are Diesel fan, work to get this changed. Me, I’m happy with it this way at this time, until Diesels become even cleaner or fuel even more expensive.

And honestly, that’s why I don’t like Diesels. I’m not willing to watch our country get all stinky (yes, Diesels still stink) and sooty (Diesels still blow soot under heavy acceleration). I’m not a fan of having to add a gallon of urea in the trunk with every tank of fuel either. Diesels emit large amounts of particulates, although it is greatly reduced from 20 years ago.

Additionally, the economics suck. In all the country, Diesel costs more than regular gas. About 20 cents usually. Now, it depends on the price of regular gas, but you have to get about 10% better mpg just to make the fueling costs even. And that’s before higher maintenance costs and initial costs. Start doing the math, and it would take most cars about 80,000 miles to pay even their initial costs back (I believe I did Golf TDi versus Golf 2.0). I just don’t see Diesels as cost effective unless gas prices go up to $5/gallon or unless you drive a lot of miles (which is where Diesels clean up).

Finally, the amount of crap under the hood to get a Diesel to perfom well is ridiculous. DC has a tri-turbo 3.2L to get 250HP or something? I’m not saying Diesels aren’t finally producing decent power for their displacements, but it’s due to massive turbocharging and people invariably compare them to NA gas engines and give them the thumbs up. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Although note that heavy turbocharging reduces gas engine highway mileage and increases city, while on a Diesel it has the most benefit on the highway.

I personally see GDi (gasoline direct injection, Audi calls it FSi) as putting a big crimp in Diesel sales, at least in countries where taxes don’t favor Diesel fuel. GDi allows gasoline engines to enjoy the property of Diesels (low pumping losses) that allow them to get great mpg when cruising on the highway. We have to wait until the sulfur is removed from our (US) gas in a year or so before we can get that advantage, but I think it will even further reduce the cost-effectiveness of Diesels versus gas engines for the typical user in a car appliation.

I do agree wholehartedly on one thing, that there is now a market (even in the US) for a high mpg luxury car. That’s basically what you’re pitching, using Audi as a base for a high mileage engine. Toyota saw this first, it wasn’t like there weren’t cars that got good mpg before (the Metro XFi gets 55mpg highway, more than the Prius), but that they were crapboxes because only someone who was pretty broke or really green would buy a high mpg car. Now that’s changed, it’s time for all the companies to get wise and offer options for high-mpg, high-lux cruising (as much as possible). Luxury cars have decent profit margins, that’s yet another reason for them to jump in.

Whomever mentioned that diesels are still in their infancy is correct. 10, even 5, years from now diesel technology will probably surpass gasoline technology. Heck, even today’s gasoline engines are just now picking up on direct injection which has been used on diesels for many years now. And as far as the economic aspect goes, you can get B100 biodiesel (100% non-petroleum) and any modern diesel engine will happily consume it while emitting nothing more than a faint sweet odor out the exhaust pipe, virtually no emissions (much cleaner than even the cleanest gasoline engines) and no detectable particulates. Not to mention the high lubricity of Biodiesel is VERY good for engine longevity.

And I forgot to mention….Yes Audi, build and bring the S diesels to the USA!

I have an 05 VW Passat TDI and love it. The diesel engine is the way to go. Since I’ve swithced to a diesel car i don’t think i’ll ever go back to gasoline unless I’m forced to. But most of my driving is highway so that is where a diesel really shines. Show me a gasoline powered car that has the space and comfort of my passat and can return 50 mpg (canadian gallon)then I may consider it. The car handles very well even with a “heavier” diesel engine. My passat has a 2 litre diesel with 136 hp at 4000 rpm (i think)and 246 ft/lbs of torque at 1900 rpm. Once you drive a torquey engine it is tough to go back. That is likely why the pushrod gasoline engine is popular more torque and hp at lower rpm. How often do Civic drivers really rev their engines to 7000 rpm to get the benefit of the 180 hp they “can” produce. Real world driving diesel wins in my books.
I always love when people bring hydrogen up as a fuel source, how do they think hydrogen is made? Until some environmentally friendly and cheap way of making hydrogen it will never be a fuel but an energy transfer medium, transferring the energy put into making it likely from a fossil fuel. But Hydrogen is another discussion.

It still surprizes me how ignorant the general public is with thier lack of knowledge on modern VW diesels.

Everyone who posted here should realize that diesels will continue to maintain a cult following and never apeal to the masses in the US. I kind of like it that way anyway.

Steve Sawyer the gentleman who posted first (flaming the diesel), has probably never had the opportunity to ride in a euro spec high performance diesel running on ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel), he’s probably never never been in a NA (north american) with chip/injector. I bet hes just pissed that he paid too much for his piece of crap Prius that gets “smoked” every time he tries to get a closer look at the nicer interior of his neighbors TDI. Either that or he had his batteries replaced after 30,000 miles and saw his goverment subsidy go right back to Toyota!

Sorry, to digress, but anyone with even the most basic engineering understanding or the willingness to understand, will know that those who continually bash the diesel and its development are simply uneducated and ignorant.

I agree with the positive comments above about diesels, and particularly vw TDI’s. My first tdi was a 1996 passat wagon that I bought used with over 117,000 miles. Vanity led me to sell it to my mother as I “upgraded” to a brand new 2002 A4 1.8 Quattro. What one gains in posh and flash led to a mess of unreliable headaches. My mother still drives the ‘96 (now with over 200k), and I traded in my audi for a new ‘05 passat tdi. I will drive this and keep it until it dies. I will definitely buy another audi but ONLY if they bring it here in the TDI. I will NEVER drive another gasser. By the way, I typically put on 30k per year.

Diesel haters out there will love this one: Audi is running the R10 TDI (Yes! It’s a DIESEL!) at LeMans this year. From what I read, the R10 TDI has a V12 version of the 5.0L V10 TDI engine that’s in the Touareg TDI.

I expect the R10 TDI to do well at LeMans, even if it doesn’t take first place. It will require fewer fuel stops throughout the race because of the better MPGs, giving a definite advantage. There’s also fewer parts and systems which can break or fail, ensuring that it will be better able to finish the race, compared to others that end the race with a ‘DNF’ status. AND BEST OF ALL: IT WILL HAVE INCREDIBLE BUTT-KICKING WEAPONS-GRADE TORQUE! The torque will always be available on demand, especially at low revs. It will be most useful when quickly accelerating out of turns. Non-Diesel car drivers will be doing a lot of downshifting compared to the R10 to keep the revs up to have power available to keep up with the R10 as it rockets out of the turns.

It’s been said that “People buy Horsepower but they drive Torque”. That says it all about what driving a modern turbodiesel car is like.

You want viable hydrogen power, you really WILL need the Manhattan Project. Hydrogen is not an energy source, it’s an energy carrier. You use electricity generated by something else to get hydrogen from water. The most efficient means of producing electricity that we have is nuclear. If hydrogen really is the way forward, then the environmentalists in the US need to give up their fear of nuclear power. Otherwise most hydrogen generated will suffer from the same hidden environmental costs that diesel critics claim.

Actually, David, the V12 TDI used in the Audi R10 is loosely derived from the chain-driven, common-rail injected, twin-turbo 4.2 V8 TDI, not the gear-driven, pumpe-duese injected, single turbo 5.0 V10 TDI. However, they’re using an aluminum block, which is new for them.

All the anti-diesel comments posted here are laughably ignorant. Yes, the economics suck, assuming you make poor economic choices like A) drive less than average, B) trade in your car every 2 years, C) assume fuel costs will not continue to be increasingly volatile, D) ignore the consistantly higher resale value of a diesel.

“You have to get about 10% better mpg just to make the fueling costs even”… you say that as if you don’t know that diesels get 40-50% BETTER MPG while delivering better drivability and more useable power. Golf 2.0 vs TDI is comparing a gutless POS (that they dump on the NA market and don’t even sell in Europe anymore) with a fun, sporty ride.

Diesel emissions: your nose is not a useful pollution detector. A biodiesel fueled diesel will beat a gas engine in every meaningful catagory (that’s right, NOx emissions are not meaningful, 35 year old EPA data be damned).

“Finally, the amount of crap under the hood to get a Diesel to perfom well is ridiculous.” – More ignorance. A smaller and simpler turbo than you’d put on a gasser, no increasingly trouble-prone super high voltage ignition system, fewer emissions control devices, and an injection pump. My TDI has a cleaner and less complicated underhood arrangment than most gas engines I’ve seen.

As much as Americans hate to do it, a non-emotional look at the facts will show that the European market is a look at the future of our own. Smaller, more efficient cars, expensive fuel, and a HUGE diesel market share (about 50% and growing at this point, and even more in the large luxury car segment). It’s about time we ditched the 1950’s era pushrod crap and joined the 21st century… but the domestics would rather run themselves out of business.

” its simply a waste of time and resources developing that technology. its just mind blowing to me that there isn’t a Manhattan project scale inititave to move passenger cars away from fossil fuels and onto something smarter like Hydrogen internal combustion engines. And don’t kid yourself thinking 20% bio-diesel blends are helping with fossil fuel dependance.”
It’s mind-blowing to me that you would put those two sentences together… We’re at LEAST 20 years from any viable hydrogen technology, and even that is a huge IF. Diesel tech is viable TODAY, and burying your head in the sand about the viability of biodiesel isn’t going to make it go away. That technology is in it’s infancy, and if we were to make a MODEST (not Manhattan-project) investment in R&D for biofuel crops(such as algae) and processing it would be a huge step away from foreign oil dependence, TODAY(not 20 years from now). Do I need to remind you that ALL of our important infrastructure runs on diesel? If gas septuples in price it will be inconvenient/costly for wasteful suburbanite commuters, but if diesel septuples in price our economy is in serious trouble. Biodiesel can help offset that problem, TODAY.

bhtooefr, thanks for the correction. I knew it was a V12 TDI in the Audi R10 but wasn’t sure of its origin. Above all, what’s cool is that it’s a DIESEL being raced at LeMans.

I expect the R10 to do well because of the butt-kicking, gut-wrenching, weapons-grade torque. It will be like a rocket when accelerating out of the turns.

Many VW TDI owners are already aware of how sporty Diesel cars in Europe are a real hoot to drive while returning better MPGs compared to their gasser counterparts. Too bad we may never see these great cars here in the USA. Funny how these cars end up on my “most wanted” list.

In Europe, it used to be if you wanted fuel economy, you bought a diesel car. If you wanted performance, you bought a gasser. With all the advances in Diesel car technology in recent years, diesel owners who bought a diesel car for economy discovered they CAN perform too! The gutsy low-end torque always available on demand makes it a lot more fun to drive, even if the car wasn’t originally born to be a drag racer. Modern turbodiesel engines are now preferred over gassers in Europe in sporty cars because they can accelerate faster than their gasser counterparts while still returning better fuel economy. Diesel wins hands down in the end because of the overall better driveability.

In Europe, I read somewhere that in the high-end luxury car segment of the market, the diesel penetration is somewhere around 90%. Diesel haters out there, think about this for a minute. Why would someone who’s spending $100k or more for a high end luxury car capable of hauling serious arse on the Autobahn prefer a DIESEL engine instead of a gasser? It’s not like they can’t afford the high gas costs that go with owning a gasoline version of the same car. There’s a lot more to it than that. Again, diesel wins hands down in the end because of the overall better driveability because of the gutsy torque characteristics.

For people who aren’t interested in sporty cars or high end luxury and want great fuel economy, Europe already has DIESEL passenger cars that blow away gasser hybrids in the USA in terms of MPGs and are still fun to drive. I wish VW would bring their 81MPG Lupo model here. That’s USA MPG, not Imperial MPG. I also wish Audi would bring the 80MPG(US) A2 model here. The 77MPG diesel Mercedes/SMART car would be nice (right now we’ll have to settle for the lower MPG gasser version). The Toyota Yaris diesel (65MPG?) would also be nice, and so would the whisper-quiet 55 MPG Honda Accord Diesel which has set new world records for performance and MPGs. A Honda Civic Diesel or Toyota Corolla diesel would be nice too (they already exist in Europe). And did I mention these cars are also fun to drive?

For those wanting a small SUV, like a Toyota RAV4 or Honda CRV, too bad the USA doesn’t get the 35-40MPG Toyota RAV4 diesel or the Honda CRV diesel. However that might change in a couple of years as Honda has announced plans to have a diesel passenger car in the USA in 2007.

For larger SUVs, in Europe, you can get the Jeep Grand Cherokee with a DIESEL. We may get this one in the USA in a couple of years. For smaller SUVs, we have the Jeep Liberty CRD (2.8L Common Rail Diesel).

The list of Diesel cars in Europe that we’re not fortunate enough to get in the USA goes on. Too bad we can’t get them in the USA. They get the all the good stuff. The USA is only about 10 years behind the curve in Europe when it comes to Diesel passenger car technology.

Audi, PLEASE BRING ON THE “S” DIESELS!

Diesels are a better solution than gas hybrids. Dr. Diesel ran his engines on corn oil for the first 25 years of their existence. Diesels can be run on just about any form of agriculture, paired with hybrid electric technology, we would see full size sedans getting 70 mpg. New diesel fuel (ultra low sulfur) will greatly reduce harmful byproducts. There is no new technology needed to run a diesel engine on Wesson oil right now. Thousands of people across the nation are already paying nothing for fuel. They get used oil from McDonalds, etc…, filter it, then fill up their tanks.