So Skynet has taken control of Toyota ECU’s? The war with machines has begun!

awesome BC awesome.

Toyota’s cover up is unraveling faster than toilet paper at a sh!t convention.

Yowzer…not good!

This is why all toyotas will come with an automatic shut off switch in the future.

Hmmmm, not so good for the 4 occupants of the Avalon that were killed. Hopefully Toyota will do the right thing and actually recall the cars for what is wrong. The Drive by Wire Control module.

Truly people, Avalon drivers are so retarded that I would give Toyota the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Toilet paper? We don’t need no stinkin’ toilet paper….

Toyota’s “Anti-Murder” switch can’t come soon enough apparently.

I usually use my socks.

I see they did not offer to replace the entire engine and transmission… as they should have. Shifting from drive to neutral over and over again and having the engine bang off the rev limiter for extended periods of time will totally ruin the entire system.

That guy’s first stop should be Enterprise to rent an Impala, then he needs to go see his lawyer and have Toyota buy that car back.

Isn’t that what the carpet mat is for in the bathroom Smegley?

Toyota – it’s all too funny, and sad too.

I guess “Moving Forward” was more than just a slogan to the engineers, they took it too literally.

This has happened before to a family in California.And is part of a 3.8 million car recall. Stop blaming drivers.This is part of their 3.8 million car recall.

How does a company that makes cars which can murder your face at will take the top spot in brand perception survey?

There will still be those that defend Toyota on this matter. A shame . Thanks Mark for the article. I can’t believe another four people were killed in their Toyota and it didn’t make headlines on the MSM news. The floor mats were in the trunk. No mat-related issue there.

I love how the article says that “the dealer sent out a tech who verified that the floor mat was removed.” It’s a good thing they hired technicians to verify complicated issues like whether the floor mats are installed. Better yet, the article also says “dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge.” Uh, I would certainly hope so.

Toyota should have bought the turd off of the guy (at top dollar) and used it as a test subject to figure this problem out. They had a golden opportunity with this unit failing right in front of them, with all of their equipment right there to test and gather data. They were probably too busy making excuses on why it isn’t Toyota’s fault.

This incident does prove that shifting into Neutral works. That family in the Lexus in California could have been saved had the (CHP trained) driver actually remembered what the big “N” on the gear selector was for.

that had to be good for his engine/transmission… I think they owe this guy a car that wont try to kill him. like a ford or a chevy.

Enterprise rents alot of Toyotas now Raineman…

It was obvious that there was more to the issue than floor mats when Toyota started retrofitting safety interlocks to the drive by wire throttle control…

Hopefully the truth will come out. If any of the US manufactures had the same issue that’s affecting Toyota, the press would have been all over them. I expect this to modify people’s rose tinted view of Toyota.

I hope the new FT-86 has this feature so I can legally be caught speeding.

Automatic shut off switch may not be the safest solution as you will lose power brakes and steering. This person seems like he knew how to handle the situation, but the guy that called 911 from his Toyota last year and crashed at the next intersection clearly did not know how to put his car in neutral or turn the ignition key/hold the start button to shut the engine off. I believe most people fall into the latter category, especially if they are driving a Toyota. They have to just fix the ECU programing and replace millions of computers.

@plainspoken

But Toyota said the recall was to replace incorrect floormats that their idiot customers installed with the correct factory versions because this random acceleration was the stupid Americans’ faults.

@liberalsrinsane: You answered your own question… it’s all about perception. Build a shiny piece of shyte and spend enough on advertising… you can convince the public of almost anything.

@RICER, get your FT-86 with 3 pedals. That’s your safety switch, the utmost left pedal!

And to think I was going to use my floor mats to accelerate my car so as to give my foot a rest. I guess all I need to do is just start the car and off it goes.

Seriously Toyota, lets get on the ball here. What other excuse are you going to come up with this time? Hmm, maybe they will say there are too many carpet fibers weighing the pedal down. Who knows.

If they did put an anti-murder switch in the car, that would probably fail too. They should equip the cars with a parachute like the dragster cars. Push a button when the car can’t be slowed down and it opens up. Wait, that will probably fail too.

Those Toyota cars have a mind of their own. Just like that movie Christine, even though that was a Chrysler car.

again(and hopefully, but probly not, for the last time) for all you morons allergic the truth… The driver of that Lexus didn’t call 911, his brother in law in the back seat did. They said he tried shifting into neutral, but on that particular vehicle it had no effect.

psiclone… that sounds like it could be a fun game. “reasons why this isn’t Toyota’s fault”

@liberalinsane HMMMMM “toyota said”. They HAVE been caught not being truthful before you know.

RaineMan, I don’t think anyone said that shifting to nuetral wouldn’t work. I think that Lexus had an electronic shift connection rather than a mechanical one like this Avalon. And it was because of a “safety” device that, depsite shifting to “N”, the Lexus stayed in the gear it thought was best for the engine’s safety. Can anyone confirm that? I thought that’s what I read.

Toyota is going to have to replace or reprogram the ECUs in all of these cars to get to the problem to stop… and you’d better believe that they are going to try everything else first. This may very well be the end of Toyota’s dominance in America… and not a moment too soon.

I’ll play!! I’ll play!!

It isn’t Toyota’s fault because:

the air molecules above the gas pedal exerted just enough force to keep the accelerator pressed!

the driver’s prosthetic foot detached and held the accelerator down!

the driver’s pet ferret got loose in the car and fell asleep on the accelerator!

All quite possible.

The 2005 Avalon had several complaints of transmission hesitation problems that Toyota also swept under the rug.

how about… The squirrel that runs the “ECU” got his tail caught in the serpentine belt

@Cardemon04:I thought there was a little Japanese midget under the hood of those things.

I’m very glad Toyota is being caught for their deception. I have posted my families Toyota story here multiple times and have known for a long time what the real problem was.

My biggest complaint with Toyota is how they handeled the problem. They treated the customers they were endangering with their defective product like idiots. My father in law took a several thousand dollar loss on a brand new Avalon because Toyota knew they could push it off as driver error.

He was actually ridiculed by the Toyota dealer and service techs for his problem, despite growing evidence that there was a very real problem.

I hope Toyota gets nailed to the wall for this cover up.

Also, stop blaming the drivers. Until you are in their shoes with a 260HP V6 at wide open throttle you don’t know what they are having to deal with. My FIL was able to controll the situation, but what if it was your grandmother. Consumers should not be out in this dangerous situation.

psiclone – I believe you are correct. I had read somewhere but unfortunately I do not have the source that some of the recalled vehicles had a Neutral lock out that prevents the transmission from being shifted back into Neutral when engine speeds are above 5000 Rpm. The same article I read also stated that Toyota had no fail safe that the brake pedal would over ride the accelerator pedal when applied even at WOT. The article actually might have been one from LLN back in late November or early December.

The guys ego was sooo big(from owning a Toyota) it was holding down the gas pedal

PS this is declared a no Dr. Phil zone…that fan boy is nowhere to be seen.

Also, we don’t know for sure that there is not an electronic lock out to keep cars from being shifted into neutral if the throttle is at WOT. This Avalon could, but some of the other accounts in Lexus vehicles with trained drivers behind the wheel suggested that they attempted to shift into neutral without effect.

Again it is easy to judge the situation from behind the safety of your keyboard.

@928dreamer, Amen.

Look, no one should have to switch to Neutral just to live. In a panic, many will not find time to look for it and take there eyes off the rapidly approaching cliff or tree. And anyway, what kind of solution is that? I would be trading in my Toyota if I had one. Seriously. People are DYING. Its no joke. Its not funny. I have a wife and 3 kids, and I would never feel comfortable sending them off in a Toyota, hoping that nothing happens. 1 in a million chance is still too great for me. You can replace the whole engine and trans, but with no CAUSE or SOLUTION found, there is no reason to believe that the same thing will not happen again.

Now, if the head of Toyota would do the honorable thing…..he would stick his little “needle” dick on the pedal, and run into a cement pillar! The days of the invincible Japanese auto are over!

and the scumbag comment of the day goes to raineman, for pissing on the grave of that cop and his family…i won’t detail what i think you deserve for being such a pussy keyboard warrior, but it’s not pleasant…and the fact somebody in an avalon shifted into neutral doesn’t prove that a guy in a lexus could’ve done the same thing…

Toyota Sux

Toyota will fight this to the death. It is not going to be pretty. The potential and likely recall for the drive by wire system is spread across such a wide range of vehicles that it will be literally millions of cars and trucks. This will not be a cheap fix and will probably be the first multi billion dollar recall. This would likely bankrupt Toyota given their recent financial situation.

That’s what happens when you sweep things under the rug for too long instead of facing the problem head on and treating your customers with respect.

I scrolled all the way down hoping to hear from Dr Filled with it on this one, and alas, I was let down yet again.

I think it was a combination of the Japanese midget and the ferret holding the pedal down.

Ahhh yes, DrFill. An examle of the dangers of being a blind fanboy.

Paging Dr Fill, Paging Dr. Fill. Should we bow to the master now??

Goodbye Toyota. Your time at the top was brief and soon to be a distant memory.

didnt they already find it had nothing to do with floormats???????

Not necessarily! If you would have a floor mat in a car I believe it would still accelerate. It was an accident that at this time mats were out. So, it will accelerate when mats are in!

anyclearer, Toyota made that conclusion alone. Not the NHTSA. In fact, NHTSA issued a stern response to Toyota’s loose interpretation of their findings. The floor mat zip-ties were a temporary, fingers-crossed sollution. More like smoke and mirrors if you ask me.

People are losing their lives. And I tell you the truth, this topic crosses my mind most of the time I’m driving near a Toyota product. But, I’m sure Consumer’s Report and their flock will have nothing to do with this Toyota sacralidge.

I only read one of the comments above, this on:
“928dreamer

Ahhh yes, DrFill. An examle of the dangers of being a blind fanboy.”

WELL SAID!!

As for this, “Dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge,” well, they had better done it free of charge! If they would have charged me for such a repair, I would have kindly said, “Hold on!” As I got back into my car and drove the POS through their front windows…only then would I give them the keys =D
———-

So, Dr., where the hell are you now? Are you krying in a corner because your beloved POS company has, yet again, been shot down?

This is sad though,
“The Safety Record also reported on a one-car crash that occurred in Dallas, Texas the day after Christmas involving a Toyota Avalon. According to the accident report, the vehicle inexplicably left the road and ended up crashing through a fence, and landing upside down in a pond – killing all four occupants. The floor mats were found in the trunk of the car – ruling out the possibility of the floor mat causing the accident.”

Time to do away with ETC. Its technology for the sake of technology. There really is something to be said for the mechanical link that is a throttle cable. Safety, and overall better driving experience. ETC makes driving more like a video game. Awful.

In case anyone is interested, at least one current car still has a throttle cable: Hyundai Elantra Touring.

Can you say cover up.

HASTA LA VISTA BABY

listen people, you can’t shift into neutral in a toyota or lexus vehicle without being under 5k rpms, it won’t let you. The article states that the guy in the avalon was able to keep it under 5krpms and shift into neutral, he was in town. The CHP officer was going highway speeds and was likely not able to keep the engine under 5k rpms, so he could not shift into neutral and he crashed.

Dr.fill would say its the damn Americans fault that the car took off and crashed.

Toyodaa = crap

I would not let my mother-in-law drive a toyodaa. Unsafe auto’s with crappy engineering to save a few bucks. Why is not on the major news networks. People are unsafe driving in toyodaa’s.

I have noticed that Hertz is renting a LOT of Camrys lately.. I’ve had two in the past six months and the one thing I noticed is that at highway speeds, when you lift off the throttle, the car continues on as if it is freewheeling in neutral, and doesn’t seem to slow down nearly as quickly as most cars I’ve driven. I’m sure the ECU is tuned this way for better mileage (each Camry averaged over 32mpg highway, exceptional for such a large car), but it is a little disconcerting to lift off the throttle and feel no transmission drag-down at all.

I just want everyone to know that Doc’s OK seeing as he just posted on the MR2 hybrid concept.

Here it is:

“The Beast from the Far East awakens with a roar
DrFill”

It’s one of those generic posts that works in a number of situations. Just substitute ‘more blood on their hands’ for “a roar” and you get the idea.

johnny once again bringing some news to rest the nerves of those of us on this site.

I can’t believe they still haven’t figured this problem out. What also worries me is that the only place I’ve heard about this is on (lets be honest) obscure, esoteric car enthusiast news websites. If there are 3.8 M odd Toyota/Lexus cars on the road that are ticking timebombs of unintended acceleration, why is it not making the news and/or something being done about it? Who cares about bashing or defending toyota, people are actually dead, I for one don’t want to be next.

@Lawnchair88
Contact your local newspaper and t.v. station and let them know. You are a voice of the community. I don’t think you would be the first to do this in relation to this story since this is involving vehicales all over the US, but it has to get out to the public by someone some how.

Wow! At least there is proof now! At least no one got hurt when this happened to this Avalon and the driver got it to the dealership and the dealership was able to confirm everything. I hope with this example that the Toyota dealership actually reports this to the heads of Toyota.

Maybe it’s the sprits of all the American solders the Japanese killed taking revenge on people for buying Japanese cars…Or that people are waking up and realizing Toyota is all HYPE!!!! Lies and cover-ups… the truth is they aren’t any better… its all there propaganda the last 20 years (Oh what a feeling) and all that crap WAKE UP PEOPLE

I’m suprised an Avalon owner knows what wide open throttle is. they’ve probably never revved over 2000 RPMs before so they probably first thought some dang kid was wizzen by in there fart cannned civic when it first started to make noise.

KUDOS TO THIS GUY FOR GETTING IT TO THE DEALER!!!!

He risked his own safety to get it back to the dealer without crashing. I have had to do similar things (in/out of neutral/drive) at LOW speeds (stalling rather than WOT), and thAt is dangerous enough…

…the fact that somebody had to do this on their own to actually “PROVE” it to Toyota disgusts me (not to mention all the people he had to put in harm’s way on his way to the dealer).

I am proud of him. Let me repeat that: I AM PROUD OF YOU MAN. GOOD JOB. -Mike

Why can’t their just be something simple with toyota? It seems like they have everything ass backwards! In my passat, and some other cars too, at any time while I’m driving, I can put the car into neutral and I can also push the key in to take it out, which kills the engine even while driving on the freeway. The power steering still works fine as long as the key is in the ACC mode. Is there a reason WHY they don’t have something like this on their cars? Surely, it can’t be for safety reasons!

starting from 2010 models, toyota/lexus should make manual transmission, the only standard transmission in all of their vehicles

This is really sad. At least this person did not lose their life. I know a lot of car manufacturers have done wrong, but this is just not smart for Toyota. They know it isn’t a floor mat and it’s not a pedal. There is something seriously defective with these cars and they better come clean on it quick. People on here can call people stupid Americans or what have you, but I am pretty sure people no the brake means stop and the accelerator is go and if a floor mat is stuck on an accelerator you are going to ghet it unstuck so you dont die along with your family in a wreck. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves for even making fun of anyone’s intelligence, especially when lives are being lost.

I’m thinking someone could box up those defective throttle parts and put ‘em on eBay as Toyota Avalon “TRD Performance” kits.

@ 0-60
That’s a good point about taking the initiative to contact the local news about this. Have you ever done that before?

“Dealer techs witnessed the problem and have reportedly offered to repair the vehicle free of charge.” If I was the driver, and had already had it in for repair, I wouldn’t accept this. I would insist that they take back this lemon, refund my money, and go find another car.

@lawnchair88
I personally have not, but do know people that have for situations not related to the auto sector. I know the LA Times has done a couple of stories on this problem but now their is actual proof. I don’t know if they have read this story that we are commenting on but i’m sure with all that they have reported so far they would like to have someone to talk to that has actually had this problem with their toyota and lived. That way hopefully we can start to get some facts out to the general public that would like to have their loved ones driving in a safe vehicle.

It looks like Toyota might be getting that recall crown two years running, all over the same issue.

OK, so far……their vehicles don’t need humans to pilot them, their big trucks rust in two, their spare tires have fallen out onto the roadways, the Matrix/Vibe stall, the Prius won’t stop AND stalls, Toyota denies any problems and they’re putting our economy and lives at risk……….WHAT A FEELING!!

He tried to slam on the brakes but there was a grapefruit stuck under the pedal. Stupid Ralph Wiggum…

I really durprise people still buy a toyota.
if you wanna die, then drive it.

Please don’t forget, must get a car insurance for your family.

There’s about a thousand different ways to solve this problem, but the simplest and cheapest way is to use a GODDAMN CABLE THROTTLE BODY instead of these electronic pieces of **** that continue to malfunction (my old man’s Mercury just kept randomly sticking shut for no reason, my brother’s GMC Canyon runs like **** unless you clean the damn thing out every other month, etc).

The second failsafe (because you’re a moron if you only have one) is to stop being a pussy and buying an automatic. Problem solved.

The more electrical crap they put on cars, the more electrical crap will continue to fail. Why do you think there are so many old 80’s Honda Civics still on the road? Because they don’t break.

And they keep making cars with these crap electronics because morons keep buying them. Blame the companies for giving people what they want. Yeah, that’s real smart logic there.

One last thing: you people hating on Toyota are only doing so because you’re finally hearing more about their problems than the massive problems that GM and Ford are having with their own vehicles. Why? Because Toyota outsells the **** out of those two companies. Drama sells, this is what “news” has become.

I bet the percentage of cars affected is less than 1.

rarson, Toyota does not sell the **** over GM and Ford. GM and Ford both outsell Toyota.

Perhaps though you are writing from Japan?

And again your math skills are either very bad or your sense of numbers is really bad or you think that 1 out 100 drivers killing themselves in a Toyota is really not that bad.

And the reason Toyota has not fixed the problem is that most likely they have no fricken idea what is wrong.

They had to do something to calm the owners and the tie strap and the floor mat and the pedal changes calmed people and hopefully will give them time to find the issue.

But if I was driving a Toyota/Lexus/Scion I would be putting a kill switch in my car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs7WI2s-CVw

Toyota has a long history of trying to hide problems with their cars, such as the toyota sludge.

Still no Dr Fill? Woulda thought he’d have grown a pair by now and defended himself somehow… oh wait, no I didn’t.

Note to self: GTFO the next time a Toyota is in the rearview mirror.

And I’ve been wondering…Does the emergency brake do nothing in these situations? Or does it not work after 5,000 RPM’s either?

“And again your math skills are either very bad or your sense of numbers is really bad or you think that 1 out 100 drivers killing themselves in a Toyota is really not that bad.”

Apparently your reading skills are the actual problem, since the driver of the car wasn’t killed.

And Toyota certainly does sell the **** out of their vehicles, hence the reason they are the number 1 automobile manufacturer today.

“But if I was driving a Toyota/Lexus/Scion I would be putting a kill switch in my car.”

Yeah, because clearly you’re more capable of wiring up a car than Toyota.

“Does the emergency brake do nothing in these situations?”

Why would you be pulling the emergency brake then there’s a perfectly good brake pedal right next to the gas? Most of the car is stopped by the front wheels, not the back. Using the emergency brake would just lock the rear wheels up and send you into an uncontrollable slide.

My god, there’s way too many idiots on the road that do not know how to operate cars. You people should not have driver’s licenses.

@carstuff
You got those global sales numbers for 2009 to see who has the crown?

@rarson
toyota dosen’t sell a **** more cars than GM or Ford.
toyota has sold a little more cars than GM in the past 2 years(very little more) but last I checked GM had the crown for 76 years in a row. So calm down. toyota is hardly setting any records in the sales department. come talk to me in 74 year when they might have a chance to TIE GM.

This is a rarity only because nobody buys an Avalon. LOL.

I would like to know how the customwer managed to drive a car with WOT happening. Man, them Toyotas must be some powerful machines!

rarson – If you have read all the articles on this form about the Unintended Acceleration issues that Toyota has been having you would know that the engine at WOT does not produce enough power assist to the breaks to override the engines power. That being said, Toyota for some stupid reason never put in a fail safe that when brakes and gas are applied at the same time the throttle would be cut off. Before you start trash talking please make sure you have all your information correct.

As for Toyota way outselling everyone. You are sadly mistaken. I do believe they are number 1 for 2009 in sales, but GM is not far behind. That is also world wide sales. GM outsells Toyota in North America. Oh and to let you know, Toyota also had two other firsts in 2009 other than being the manufacturer that sold the most vehicles. They also held the crown as most recalled car company of 2009 and had their first operating loss.

Paging Dr. Fill, you are needed in ER for Toyota, paging Dr. Fill

Selling just enough more to give you the #1 spot means that you simply sell more, not Sell the Hell out of #2. The gap isn’t that far. Jack’s dick is 88mm long. Gille’s dick is 90mm long. Gille thinks his dick is WAY BIGGER than Jack’s. They are both very in touch with their gay side.

Make that second operating loss, ajm11.

oldraven – I was referring to the loss that they recorded last year in April. Have they announced if there was a second operating loss?

My Toyota Haiku:

Moving you forward
At a terrifying speed
Oh what a feeling

^clap clap clap

I know what you were saying. They are expected, and have said as much, that they will be running at a loss for the year just passed.

oldraven,
I give you the comment of the day award for your comment on 01/18, 11:56 AM!
LOL that was funny!

#100 BABY!!!!!!

“If you have read all the articles on this form about the Unintended Acceleration issues that Toyota has been having you would know that the engine at WOT does not produce enough power assist to the breaks to override the engines power.”

Did you really need an article to explain that do you? Did you not realize that power brakes operate off of engine vacuum, or that a throttle plate at WOT isn’t going to provide any?

“That being said, Toyota for some stupid reason never put in a fail safe that when brakes and gas are applied at the same time the throttle would be cut off”

Have any of the other car manufacturers that utilize electronic throttle bodies? I bet most of them haven’t. The bug up my ass is that there’s a multitude of potential problems with e-throttles, all of which can be solved by simply making them cable-driven again. But then, that would just relinquish one more set of controls back into the driver’s hands….

When you sell the most product, you’re bound to have the most complaints. That’s the curse of being #1.

You guys defending GM sales fail to realize how long GM has been relying on fleet sales, government vehicle sales, and truck and SUV sales, all of which have helped contribute to GM’s demise. GM has been trying to pull every deal out of the book recently including a 60-day money back guarantee while Japanese manufacturers have continued increasing their RETAIL sales (you know, the sales that don’t include fleet and government discount sales, the ones that ultimately matter) without having to provide many incentives at all… because they’re still making better cars.

Just look at the current state of the various car companies and it’s easy to see how those sales have mattered. Toyota is ahead by a LONG shot.

@rarson
I have gone on about things like you are without knowing the facts but I’m glad there are people that know the car world better than me. So I didn’t look dumb talking about things that are not true. As for the USA in 2009 GM has fleet sales down over 20% went through bankruptcy got all kinds of negative press and still out sold toyota by more than 300K. I also don’t know if you have been by any car rental places at all but they have a few toyotas on the lots. those are fleet sales all companies have them.

Wait a minute. Are you implying that Toyota hasn’t been giving incentives on their vehicles over this past year? Why do people keep making these statements without even attempting to find out for themselves if it’s in any way true?

http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&q=toyota+rebates+incentives&meta=&aq=f&oq=toyota+rebates+incentives&fp=ada65163c2197ad6

No one is defending ****. They’re trying to point out to you that selling a very small margin more does not mean you’re outselling the competition by some incredible degree. They aren’t ahead by a LONG shot, Gille. Look up the numbers here and tell us what the percentages are. I know that GM still sells more in the US, the world’s second largest auto market, behind China, which is definitely not a Toyota stronghold.

Also, I’ve heard as much that MANY other manufacturers do have a fuel cuttoff, when the brakes are depressed hard under acceleration. Someone else is going to have to step in on that one, but I’m pretty sure the only reason people are mentioning Toyota’s omission is because the competition have taken care of that design flaw with a failsafe.

@oldraven
GM had their sales up over 60% in china in 2009. They sold almost 2 Million vehicles in china. So like you have said and I’m repeating GM has a good hold on the 2 largest markets in the world. Not a bad place to be in.

It isn’t shocking that there are still some Ostriches who have their heads and arse stuck below the horizontal position by continuing to defend the indefensible when it comes to the Unintended Acceleration issue with Toyota.

All the so-called explanations, excuses, rationalizations and justifications including up to blaming the victims of these horrific tragic events are a vulgar extension of corporate malfeasance distilled down into the general population and their acolytes who hold fast to blind denial that their so-called “bullet proof” brand, Toyota, could not be responsible for producing these defective vehicles.

Toyota is RESPONSIBLE and should be held ACCOUNTABLE for trying to cover up this issue, rather than dealing with and doing the right thing. There is NO valid reason why Toyota has not found a solution since this has been an issue for several years except that it hits their bottom line. Well too bad, now they should be made to pay!

Dear Toyota Avalon,

I feel your pain.

Love,
Audi 5000.

Where the eff is Dr Fill on this post? Seriously – he can post 50 fvcking times on something about Toyota “doubling” hybrids by 2012 but nothing on this? Seriously!

@JakeK66
That should tell you something right there.

56oval, I love you for that, in a non gay way.

And yeah Jake, he’s just a pantywaist. Let’s just start ignoring him like we ignored NMOFGM. I liked NMOFGM better though. At least he was mildly humorous. Dr. Fill is what Jay Leno would sound like if Toyota sponsored his monologues.

ooooo, you just gave Dr. a thrill.

Most Toyota drivers never press the pedal anyways

Rarson – The only reason I brought up the whole thing about the not enough vacuum to power the brakes was your comment listed below.

“Why would you be pulling the emergency brake then there’s a perfectly good brake pedal right next to the gas? Most of the car is stopped by the front wheels, not the back.”

So you going back and saying you know that the brakes are controlled by vacuum makes you look like an idiot for posting that statement. I also believe that Oldraven is correct, GM and other manufacturers have a fail safe programmed in that when the brake is applied at the same time it kills the throttle. Toyota doesn’t. Or at least did not before the recalls.

114 posts? I think this thread is suffering from unintended acceleration.

Oh no, it’s pretty intentional…

WOW…. OVER 100 POST AND NOT A SINGLE ONE…

FROM DR. FILL…… WOW…..

I GUESS HE’S AT THE TOYOTA DEALER GETTING HIS AVALON CHECKED….

“As for the USA in 2009 GM has fleet sales down over 20% went through bankruptcy got all kinds of negative press and still out sold toyota by more than 300K”

…because their sales figures include fleet vehicles and massive buyer incentives (not to mention loads of baiilout cash from the government).

“I also don’t know if you have been by any car rental places at all but they have a few toyotas on the lots. those are fleet sales all companies have them.”

Rental car companies are just one type of company that uses fleet vehicles. Moving companies, government, and many private businesses all use fleet vehicles. In fact, every moving truck, every government vehicle, and every private business fleet vehicle, plus the majority of rental cars, that I’ve ever driven have been manufactured by US companies, and certainly not by my choice (though US brands have been getting a lot better lately).

“Are you implying that Toyota hasn’t been giving incentives on their vehicles over this past year?”

Only if you don’t understand the difference between “many” and “any.” I was speaking, of course, in comparison to the huge incentives GM has had to offer.

“They aren’t ahead by a LONG shot”

The difference is that GM has and continues to pad their sales numbers with fleet sales… which is fine, they’re selling more vehicles, but they’re not making as much money off them. One of the many reasons why GM sells so damn many vehicles and STILL goes bankrupt.

“All the so-called explanations, excuses, rationalizations and justifications including up to blaming the victims of these horrific tragic events are a vulgar extension of corporate malfeasance distilled down into the general population and their acolytes who hold fast to blind denial that their so-called “bullet proof” brand, Toyota, could not be responsible for producing these defective vehicles.”

Appeal to emotion is one of my favorite logical fallacies!

When the cost benefit skews in favor of creating a recall, they will do it. It’s a simple matter of economics. Doing smart business isn’t “evil.” it’s just smart business. Sure, it sucks when a manufacturer knowingly has a defective product and doesn’t recall it simply because they can save a bit without doing so. But that’s why you are free to take your car dollars elsewhere.

“So you going back and saying you know that the brakes are controlled by vacuum makes you look like an idiot for posting that statement.”

My apologies for assuming you actually knew something about cars. I should have been more specific: power ASSIST is controlled by vacuum. You do realize that brakes still operate without power assist, right? In fact, there once was a time when there was no such thing as power brakes! Cars must have been careening into things all the time!

“I’ve heard as much that MANY other manufacturers do have a fuel cuttoff”
“I also believe that Oldraven is correct…”

I believe that there are a lot of statements starting with “I believe” and “I’ve heard” and other such anecdotal nonsense that has been yet to be supported by any factual statements.

The US media has addressed this issue recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYWqqgr7Wcg

This problem is not going to go away by wishing it away. As more and more people die, more will become
aware of what is going on.

Rarson – I am well aware that you do not need power assist to use your brakes. By all means take a Toyota out on a clear highway that is in a straight line and see if you can over power your engine with non power assist brakes. Bet you will have a lot of problems doing it. You have no idea how much pressure or how long it will take to stop a car/truck that is stuck at WOT with manual brakes. For all you know you may end destroying the brakes before you can even stop rendering them useless. All your statements do is make seem very argumentative, and prove nothing. If you have proof that you can stop one of these cars with the brakes with the car stuck at WOT please by all means put it on here. Until then, your thoughts are all speculation.

Problem number one is that you’re DRIVING the car at WOT while trying to apply the brakes. It shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out how to get the car out of gear if it starts accelerating out of control. If I were driving the car at, say, 65 mph and the throttle got stuck at WOT, I would shift it into neutral and apply the brakes as I pulled over towards the side of the road. I’d probably apply a bit of the parking brake, too, if the front brakes weren’t enough, and would definitely try shutting the engine off while coasting to see if restarting it would solve the problem.

Like I said before, the problem could be solved a myriad of ways, the simplest being a return to cable-controlled throttle bodies. Another option to help alleviate aggravating the issue would be to stop making so damn many automatic transmissions. The BEST option, and by far the hardest and least popular, would be to actually prevent people who lack the knowledge of emergency operating procedures from getting behind the wheel in the first place.

Cars, like any other product, are prone to bugs and failures. Doing everything they POSSIBLY could to avoid such things, no car manufacturer will ever be able to prevent every single situation like this from happening. The average driver that I see on the road doesn’t even understand how right-of-way works, let alone what they should do if their brakes happen to fail. They fail to ever consider potentially dangerous scenarios when they’re driving, and so they tend to react poorly, which usually makes the outcomes worse.

rarson – I do agree with your statement that cable linkage would solve issues like this as would manual transmissions. Sometimes automated systems are not always better. That being said, do you honestly think a veteran of the California Highway Patrol would not have tried applying the brakes, shutting off the engine if he could figure out how with the push button start, or shifting if he could to stop the car. All those options are great options if you can get them to work.

The Lexus that the CHP officer was driving had push button start and at the time it was not widely known that you had to hold the button for 3 seconds to shut the car off while in motion. That car also featured a Neutral lock out to prevent damage to the engine. You could not shift into neutral when the engine was over 5000 RPM. There was a number of issues that all prevented him from stopping including frying the brakes by trying to stop.

It is easy for you to say what you would do in a situation if you are not in it. So please do us all a favor and skip arguing as to how everything could have been overcome in these situations. We all know there are issues with the cars, and unfortunately since 2002 last I read 17 people died due to the issues. That does not include the 4 in Texas that were killed mentioned in this article. Those numbers are high considering the rest of industry combined has had 4 deaths occur due to unintended acceleration. This is my last post on this story so please don’t bother replying to me as I won’t be reading it.

“do you honestly think a veteran of the California Highway Patrol would not have tried applying the brakes, shutting off the engine if he could figure out how with the push button start, or shifting if he could to stop the car.”

I don’t know the answer to that, because I don’t know where the reference to a CHP veteran is coming from. If he couldn’t stop the car, then yes, I honestly do. Many cops that I see on the road can barely drive their cruisers properly, let alone react smartly in a dangerous situation. Being a cop is not, by any means, a yardstick for intelligence or vehicular capability and preparedness.

I bet I’m the only person who has commented on this story that has read the entire owner’s manual of every single car I or any family member of mine has ever owned. Maybe I just have dull interests, but I usually know more about other people’s cars than they know themselves. I’m willing to bet that if the key is not required to be inserted for the push-button start, then there is some other way to shut the car off, and I guarantee it’s in that manual.

Oops, I started writing this before I read the rest of your comment. I rest my case. The owner of the vehicle did not prepare himself before operating it.

“It is easy for you to say what you would do in a situation if you are not in it. So please do us all a favor and skip arguing as to how everything could have been overcome in these situations.”

Wow, you’re really missing the point, aren’t you? You think that telling drivers how to be better prepared for unforeseen scenarios is a BAD thing? So, to sum it up, your solution is to hope for the best and blame the car manufacturer for unforeseen defects that result in deaths, instead of preventing those deaths in the first place by having better-prepared drivers. Why have a license test at all then?

The base level of knowledge for operating a vehicle is simply too low, and clearly the advancement of automobile technology is making that problem even worse.

Also, I can’t find any information on this neutral lockout. I’ve never heard of such a thing, and I don’t see why a car manufacturer would invent one, given that engines already have rev limiters that prevent engine damage. Why would a manufacturer create a potentially dangerous situation in order to provide a redundant function?

Since PRND, the automatic has been designed for maximum safety, and this includes being able to shift the car into neutral while driving. Considering that bouncing the car off the rev limiter under no load isn’t going to do ANY damage, I find your claim suspect. It just doesn’t add up.

Most automatic cars today, in fact, lower the rev limiter in neutral.

This ammuses my dad so much. he would say his old dodge scamp and his friends old corvettes (60’s, 70’s) and even none muscle cars would always have the gas pedal sticking when it got caught on the floor mat. I know this acceleration isn’t about floor mats but the fact that people are dieing from unexpected acceleration is sad when it used to be a daily occurence. My 2001 sierra has unexpected acceleration all the time but thats because at 160,000km the transmission started failing so it doesn’t know what gear to be in (AT) which is fun as you pull into traffic step on the gas and let you crawl up to 30 in 5th gear or change from a 50 to a 65 and think you wanna race as it drops into 3rd gear. But yeah if anyone has a problem neutral, brake, ignition. That order.