Boy I can’t wait to see who wins the small fuel efficient diesel hatchback race…o wait I forgot

this comes months after the same asshat warned of the dangers of lithium ion batteries lmao.. I guess they had a tech breakthrough..

Come on Toyota compete on the same playing field. Bring you Plug in Hybrid to the U.S by 2010 let’s see who’s the boss. Don’t wait for GM to fail and then try to come as the savior.

One would think “not so small”, M power, as the VOLT looks to be as big as G6 coupe. But yes, Let’s have that race but “who is first” is rarely as important as “who is best”.

GM has shown it can roll out a solid machine that can shine as well as or outshine Toyota. So this will be interesting all the same.

As you read this, different teams within Toyota are competing to come up with the ugliest design.

I knew there was something behind Toyota’s silence about GM’s ambitions for a plug-in.

Man is there going to be a big run on The Clapper when these come out…

Gizmo,

Toyota is strange. I hop they do bring their car to the US market. However unlike at the time. GM will not “fail” unless you define Failure as not being first to market. But that seems unlikely as well as GM has been more honest as of late and actually has product to show for their efforts.

Toyota only has a rumor to go on. If their plug-in hybrid is the next version of the Prius, then they might beat GM to market but may lose the sales race, against a more American, more enthusiastic and enthusing VOLT.

“May” being the operative term. The VOLT may price above the PRIUS for some time. Heck there are rumors that the VOLT will have to sell upscale from CHEVROLET (CADILLAC or BUICK anyone?).

More over Chrysler may make a strong move with their Dodge ZEO (Power ranger), Jeep Renegade concept, and Chrysler EcoVoyager. All of which could use a version of either’s Hybrid drive trains but would all likely use the Renegade’s setup for the time being. Competing with three not just one or two offerings, aimed squarely at three specific targets, sounds like a workable strategy. Also if Chrysler could knock out the first VIPER in 3 years and the ME412 in less time, then getting those three out between 2010 and 2012 seems very possible.

FORD so far is the only DETROIT non-player… and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Honda wants back in to the Hybrid biz. Nissan and other Japanese makers have not made a strong showing or even a pronounced intention. Most European and Korean automakers are not making much noise on the subject either.

The market for Hybrids will continue to grow. People want and now are starting to need these machines.

Hoping for the failure of one over the other is poor thinking, I would note.

But all things will play out in time.

So, we will have to see.

To fleets in 2010 is not the same or nearly as impressive, as “for sale to public” in 2010. Fleets are a controlled environment, you have to be much more confident to sell this to the American “sue happy” public at large.

Toyota should be kicking GM’s ass right about then in 2010, and Ford will come on strong with the New Taurus!

DeansterTJ,

The strange thing is that people can budget themselves to pay $40K for a car or SUV. The real problem is the unstable price of gas. When it cost $35 a week or so to drive that Chevy Suburban for a commuter car AND the price of gas looked to be stable at around $1.25 or so a gallon, no one cared about Fuel economy.

Driving a car that got good gas mileage was like saying “I’m poor”. I guess those people are saying “I’m smart” more often now.

Now it costs upwards of $100+ a week to fill that tank. That kinda’ hurts when you don’t budget for it or the price is still moving…upward

A new hybrid may cost $5K or so more than a comparable traditional powered car, hence the interest in diesel as well, but people can budget for that. Their car note does not charge every other day. But gas prices do. That is what drives people to go for the best fuel economy they can. I has a neighbor who drives his Mustang Cobra SVT on the weekends because he can afford the gas to commute to work anymore. He got a Civic LX for that.

Like buying a sports car, People buy will pay for a car that does what they want better than average. How much more is a matter of how much better the car is. Though in this case, it is “how far?” not “how fast?”

$25K for a Volt or Toyota PI Hybrid? That’s not too much to ask.

And you know they will be strong sellers in the future as the technology improves. People do not want to be caught with their collective pants down again.

Blakkar: your analysis all points to people now needing at least 2 or 3 vehicles to do what they could accomplish with one in the past. So take the arguement in that direction and your buddy with the Cobra could have bought a hell of a lot of gas for the price of that Civic- not to mention the added insurance, maintenance, parking and so on. And when the time comes, now there’s 2 or 3 vehicles to dispose of where there used to be only one.

I expect Toyota to use Europe as a training ground for the plug-in, and bring it here late in 2010.

I doubt Toyota will be the first with a plug-in here.

But I expect it to be the best.

Toyota knows we expect nothing less from them.

DrFill

JohnnyCanuck,

Not necessarily so. The point was that people will make room for a car note for a car costing more, but not for gas costing more. When someone decides to replace their current car they may well opt to but a more expensive car, particularly if it is a hybrid and the cost of fuel is a concern for them.

The cost of fuel will effect the choice of new vehicle made by the consumer. If the car is more like their last car, then they will be more likely to buy it.

If a person has a favored car, that Mustang Cobra for example, they need not get rid of it in order to have a car they can drive more regularly. Not everyone is that strapped for cash. The Mustang was paid off quite some time ago, I am sure. And being an married adult with two grown and gone children. His insurance was manageable.

On the other side, if you are tired of you current vehicle and/or just want a new one, then you will be more likely to factor in F/econ. Though some people will not care about F/econ, especially after a given price point.

I don’t expect anyone who can pony up for a $50k vehicle to give a flip about the cost of fuel or F/econ.

Any reasonable amount of common sense would have allowed you to fill out other scenarios to fit perhaps your situation, whatever it is. You would likely be rid of your vehicle if you wished, if you got one at all. Most people would. Some don’t have to ditch their favorite car or truck, SUV, or whatever to get something less costly to operate on a regular basis.

Not everyone is like you. Not everyone is like me. We all have options. I’m sure you will consider yours, as I will mine, when the time comes.

Blakkar, actually a lot of people who can afford 50K cars want hybrid. I see a lot of Lexus Hybrids on the road and Lexus is selling hybrid LS at a rate higher then regular one. The irony is that hybrid is thirstier one.
I was unpleasantly surprised reading about Prius customer who had to replace CVT just after warranty expired. The cost was 9K – 1/3 of the car. And Toyota is bustard to deal with: I had exhaust manifold burned after 39K miles on Camry and Toyota suggested I kiss my tuches good buy and pay up. I went to local Midas and they had manifold in stock (for 3 year old car!) I wasn’t first or last, I guess. Another issue with hybrids – they will require battery pack replacement, per Toyota it is 8 years deal, but they will not tell you how much that pack cost. I suspect, whatever was saved on gas will be reapportioned to Toyota for technology. I do want to save gas (I hate oil barons former KGB or Saudis alike) and I bet on diesel and smaller cars/trucks.

Blakkarr and autonut: I’m as guilty as anyone when it comes to having different cars for reasons I can justify only in my own mind. Suffice it to say I just get bored driving the same thing for more than a couple months, that’s why I rotate 7 vehicles. But before I get accused of automobile polygamy, 5 of those cost less than 8k cdn. And some far less.

As you implied Blakkarr, these are my choices. The price of gas would have to rise dramatically before I’d change the fleet just to account for the potential drain on my income. Other people aren’t so lucky.

Autonut,

I just don’t expect anyone who can foot $50K for a single vehicle to care about F/econ or fuel costs. Such people can usually write it off or just not care. They have the means.

One of the biggest gripes the Automotive press has had about Lexus Hybrids is that it is there to improve fuel economy. It’s a gimmick and/or a mild performance booster. Basically rich folks are getting fleeced if they are looking to save a few buck on fuel buying one of those machines. On this we are agreed.

I’m a bit surprised at your stories about TOYOTAs. I’m guessing these are just the bad apples in the barrel, as it were. All the same 9K for the tranny in a Prius? I don’t think the Tranny in a C6 Z06 or a 997 911 costs that much and if so, then certainly not comprising a third of the cost of the car. I thought CVTs cost less than tradition trannies, myself. Must be some special crud TOYOTA had to add on to mesh the CVT to the Hybrid drive system.

I’ve never been a big fan of Parallel hybrids, because of their complexity and resulting limits in performance and reliability.

If Hybrids are going to make it fully mainstream, then it will be a Series Hybrid, which (for those who don’t know) use the electric motor to propel the car and the gas engine ONLY runs a generator to provide the power. Because the engine is smaller and running at peak efficiency far more often – like 95% of the time – the F/econ is usually 3-4 times better. Add to this that the vehicle is far simpler and cheaper to produce, more time and resource can be leveled on making it reliable. Not that there is much to mess up. You don’t even have to have batteries in the thing except to start the generator engine. Use capacitors to launch or boost. they are lighter, less bulky, and less expensive.

The VOLT is slated to be a Series Hybrid. When people start returning 70 mpg and better (add diesel and you could get 100mpg fairly easily), there will be a shift… Being an RC nut, I could totally see hybrid sports cars coming along pretty quickly.

Sorry ran off on a tangent.

I think Toyota will do well with their new Electric Plug in in 2010

. And As much as I can’t stand GM. I would like to see GM’s Volt do well. I mean GM has had bad ideas for the last 25 years its about time they got a good one or go out of business ok.

Blakkarr nobody is interested in your comparing the cost of a transmission they just are’nt. Let the companies bear the cost of these Hybrids and as production increasing manufacturing costs will come down. But the cars or vehicles have to do well in order for that to ever happen!

Toyota will rush a car onto the market, and the result will be (surprise) a car that doesn’t work