Okay smart ass. The Big 3 sell 100,000s of cars less to fleets. Suzuki and Mitsu only sell a few hundred thousand cars in the USA a year anyway so those smaller companies don’t have the capacity to pick up all the fleet sales that the Big 3 leave behind. So who do you think absorbs those sales? In fact, Toyota’s Camry has 18% of its sales going to fleets while the new Malibu will have 20% of its sales go to fleets (compared to 40% in the previous gen Bu). 18 and 20 percent are pretty comparable, are they not? And by the way, the Camry used to have VERY LOW fleet sales but those have recently almost doubled (up from 10% just over a year ago).

You give another great example of your deep, deep bias. You claim that Hyundai gave a good warranty just because it wanted to stand by its cars and that GM was forced to give one to make people believe in them. The truth is, the original Hyundai Excel was the Yugo of 1986 – it was VERY cheap, but extremely unreliable. Thus, Hyundai gave a big warranty to try to get people to trust them again, and that is what GM did. GM wanted to make people more comfortable about buying a GM product since the public was very skeptical of GM’s quality when the warranties were introduced, same thing with Hyundai.

I do agree that Hyundai will one day be the next Toyota. Thanks to America, China will be a superpower, then India will be a superpower too and the same goes for cars; thanks to America, Honda will be a huge success next, and then Hyundai will be too. God bless the USA! (Am I allowed to say God or is the ACLU gonna get on me? Please don’t call them 1115)

I could tell you were trying to back-peddal in your poor excuse for a response but you can’t run from your previous public comments. Does it feel like the walls are closing in on you?

This is some forum article, but it has a source citation..in other words, it wasn’t written by Hyundai-haters. Just pointing that out before you try to discredit it for being a forum because the article actually comes from Business Week, not from a forum.

Uh oh, is that you admitting that there is indeed a connection between resale values and the number of cars a car company sells to fleets?

And yea there are a lot of Sonatas up for rent because Hyundai thought they were making such a great car with the Sonata that they overproduced it and they now have 1000s sitting parked in their plant in Alabama. I don’t get why you like Hyundai so much? They cars are boring, they are not good in reliability ratings, they have mediocre resales…the only thing that they are good at is their warranty coverage.

Now watch your import resale values closely. I suspect you’re in for a slippery ride…

JD Power and CR are bosh. Wikipedia is not to be used for real research, but it can often point you to trusted sources.

as promised, since there’s clearly no dictionary or any other real reference material in your trailer (or do you live in your accord?):

fact
Pronunciation: \ˈfakt\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin factum, from neuter of factus, past participle of facere
Date: 15th century
1: a thing done: as aobsolete : feat b: crime carchaic : action
2archaic : performance, doing
3: the quality of being actual : actuality
4 a: something that has actual existence b: an actual occurrence
5: a piece of information presented as having objective reality
— in fact : in truth

Wikipedia has criticisms on your precious Aura (GMs Savior) and now they are bullshit huh? The quote was from Automobile magazine and was repeated on WIKI lol Is this a case by case basis also lol

JD powers is a pay for play deal and CR is not trusted here even by your domestics cohort Commodore (unless they bash Toyota then that particular article is trusted but otherwise it’s untrustworthy)

If GM is smart (they are not) the Traverse will never come out. It’s already y out its called the Acadia… wait the Enclave … wait the Outlook

You have to go buy a dictionary BC I’m sure you don’t have one in your trailer

Japanese companies like Nissan are by far better than GM so the question is irrelevant just like your posts

Commodore: The cobalt is better, but neither can fade the Mazda3 or Focus.

” I’ll give Toyota this one”
That’s what it is, too, GIVING it to tooyota. But the avalon is probably second best for the company to the land cruiser.

tripleonefluffer:
I cant see any Camry owner trading it for a Malibu. … for a family car but I cant wait to rent a Malibu.
I can’t wait for you to figure out apostrophes.
You can’t see much at all, through your tokyo rose-tinted glasses

“Tundra vs. Silverado- Who cares lol.”
In other words, you know you lose.

Highlander vs. Traverse- Highlander is better and is more reliable
Traverse doesn’t exist yet, dumb-ass

Commodore: there are people still driving ’81 and ’82 suburbans. I prefer sonata over altima. The latter is still the best commuter coffin from japan’s big 3.

Fluffer: “The Aura’s interior has been criticized for using cheap materials.” By whom?

“it’s a better seller and therefore doesn’t suck.” By that logic, N’sync (sp?) is a great “band.”

“You seem to think that this is negotiable but its NOT! It’s based on the facts and the facts (resale reliability and build quality along with sales) say that the Japanese are better than the domestics.”

and …
“Toyota is a better car company Its fact! ”

I’m coming back later with Merriam-Webster, since you’re still struggling with the concept of what a fact is.

And you’re generalizing about “the japanese” again.

Seems like you’re renting cars often. Your accord must break down more often than my civic did.

injunraiv: I never trust CR. A stopped watch is right twice a day.

sj79: good post at 8

lambo: recalls should be examined on a case-by-case basis. Some are utterly ridiculous lawer-driven ass-coverings.

Commodore: the french were on teh american side in WWII. The Fluffer views that as a betrayal.

When you are old enough to buy a car kiddo, and you have engine sludge problems, you will discover that they are very real problems. They cost money to repair and waste your time to fix.

I don’t go on wikipedia…the only reason I knew you were on wikipedia was because of the “[5]” at the end of your quote that you copied and pasted from wikipedia. It’s quite sad actually. Wikipedia is bullshit, what I am saying is fact so I don’t see why I am the ‘bullshitter”

The Camry won the 2007 car of the year? Umm..the Aura is Car of the Year. Search for “2007 North American Car of the Year” on google

Ok kiddo, I SAID THAT. I said that the Avalon is better, I said that the Cobalt/Corolla need a redesign and I said the Trailblazer is aging. I know it makes you feel good that I said those things, but you don’t need to repeat them to try to make yourself feel like you’ve won the argument..there was NO argument in regards to the Avalon, Trailblazer, and Corolla/Cobalt

Still haven’t answer these points that I made in my last post:
“- Why does it matter that Nissan is a French company?

- Actually, domestics have DRAMATICALLY cut fleet sales, so why don’t you take a guess where all those Taurus/old Malibu/old Impala sales are going? To BMW? I don’t think so. They are being picked up by Toyonda because Toyonda loooves big sales results. I was actually shocked that Toy was down the last few months since they have all these new rental cars to sell now.”

the beauty of the import fanatic is that the most recent results DO NOT MATTER. If you say domestic quality is up in the last decade they say “but what about the crap that was made in the 80s”. If you say import brands are recalling more vehicles in the last 2 years they say “but GM had way more recalls than Toyota 5 years ago”. Trends are totally insignificant to the average insufferable import snob. They pick and chose facts and time periods and then make their arguments. One of the main criticims of the Big 3 has been their refusal to acknowledge problems and make REAL changes to rectify them. We now have proof from JD power and CR that those changes are taking place and all we hear is “dont forget about what they made 20 years ago”. If I am buying a car TODAY why would I care about domestic reliability in 1987 or 1997? The whole point is continuous improvement and they have shown that and thus they deserve credit and respect just like Toyota and Honda get.

Total lie. Toyota has outpaced GM and Ford in recalls in recent years. There is nothing wrong with being a blind loyalist that will buy Toyota no matter what, but at least get your facts straight.

Anyone who says criticizes people for touting these latest CR statements is simply stupid, period. I dont buy much of what CR says for a number of reasons but most ignorant domestic car haters have been quoting CR for years as the bible of automobile reliability. If that is what you believe than you cannot suddenly disregard CR’s results simply because you do not like them. This latest admission by CR that their “free pass” to Toyotas was wrong does little to impress me since I have felt this was a biased practice from the beginning. CR has no credibility now just as it didnt before this Toyota news came out. The point is that those who have been staunch advocates cant come up with excuses now. Its pure idiocy to dismiss Toyota’s troubles by saying “they would have to do this for 20 years to catch up with GM”. Why would you ever think its OK for Toyota to ever come close to the old GM’s quality? The real question is how could this ever happen since Toyota’s business model, engineering and production processes are supposedly infallable. Also so many have insisted for years that Toyota’s methods and results couldnt be duplicated by American companies since Toyota is all about honor and efficiency and not profit. The fact that domestic (and Korean) brands are getting better every year and Toyota is getting worse every year proves that logic is flawed.

Problematic meaning what ?Your bs engine sludge argument? Give me a break GM has real recalls for real issues not “engine sludge”

Cant take the Wikipedia quote huh ? That means you where on Wiki also so who is the 12 year old ? Thank you sit down. Name calling and laughing? Who is the 12 year old? Thank you sit down. None of that bullshit will help GM. You are not laughing anyway you are infuriated at my posts and me telling the truth and calling you a patriot so don’t try and play it cool now
The Camry is the 2007 car of the year the Aura got a Mercy screw with its award. If GM and the domestics would learn how to make passenger cars they wouldn’t be in the predicament that they are in today
You had no choice in admitting the Avalon is better, the 4 runner is the same class(not build quality and resale wise but size wise) as the Trailblazer and that the Corolla is better than the Cobalt. Toyota is a better car company Its fact! You are quickly running out of excuses and you are finally realizing it

Hey MHW & Rawdog
Have you ever seen a Toyota’s engine sludge ? Of course not. Do you realize that Honda sold nearly 200k Civics in 2 years? Has a wheel fallen off ? I dont think so. Just like Commodore you want the Japanese to fail due to patriotism. You dwell on one year not realizing the MAJOR issues GM has with even 2006 models. GM Ford and Chrysler have been having so many recalls over the years its not even a surprise anymore
If only now matter Toyota still sells more cars has better build quality than GM. If we go by the past the story is the same GM and the domestics are inferior

- Aura won NA Car of the Year and beat the Camry in a Car and Driver comparision. Also, don’t use wikipedia citations next time, it makes you look like a 12 year old.

- Read my last two posts, never said that Cobalt was better than Corolla. Both need a redesign, currently the best in the segment is the Mazda 3 (since the Civic’s wheels fall off)

- 4 Runner is bigger than TB, closer in size to the Tahoe. Bottom line is America knows how to build SUVs; we invented them. I do, however, think that the TB and Equinox suck though.

- 2 million? Toyota can do even better. 3.5 million problematic vehicles! Toy wins again!

- Kiddo, if you read my last post you’d see that I SAID THE AVALON IS BETTER. SO I DON’T KNOW WHY THE FUK YOU ARE ARGUING ABOUT IT STILL. Never said anything about patriotism in the Avalon vs Impala argument so I don’t know where you got that.

- Why does it matter that Nissan is a French company?

- Actually, domestics have DRAMATICALLY cut fleet sales, so why don’t you take a guess where all those Taurus/old Malibu/old Impala sales are going? To BMW? I don’t think so. They are being picked up by Toyonda because Toyonda loooves big sales results. I was actually shocked that Toy was down the last few months since they have all these new rental cars to sell now.

Even if the Corolla was butt ugly (it’s not in my opinion) it’s a better seller and therefore doesn’t suck while the Cobalt is butt ugly doesn’t sell and got recalled. The Cobalt sucks not the Corolla. There is no factual info to justify that the Corolla sucks

The 4 Runner and Trailblazer are truck based SUV s that is direct competition for one another. You know the TB is bullshit and you tried to compare the Tahoe in a desperate attempt at trying to legitimize your argument but you failed again

Yea you are right they didn’t have 500,000 they had 2 MILLION !……and millions

I’m sure the Supra’s roof never flew off

I KNOW the Avalon wins BC Toyota is SUPERIOR. You seem to think that this is negotiable but its NOT! It’s based on the facts and the facts (resale reliability and build quality along with sales) say that the Japanese are better than the domestics. You are basing your decisions on Patriotism and looks

I don’t care about the Altima BC Nissan is Japanese but owned by a French company. Either way they are better than the Aura and Malibu

No sorry Envoy, the only cars that I see at rental companies are American with a few lower end Japanese cars like Mitsu and Suzuki sprinkled in. I think I saw a Sonata at Avis but no Honda or Toyota’s

What happened 20 years ago is happening today with GM. They are making crap, better crap but still crap and you want the Domestics to succeed so bad that you will actually say that they are equal to the Japanese.

And why do you keep saying “the last 20 years” “the last 20 years” “the last 20 years”? everybodys point here is what is happening now. It’s like trying to communicate with a child.

Cavaliar and Cobalt are completely different cars. They cannot be compared. Yes, the Cobalt has had minor safety issues, but the Corolla is simply butt ugly. I’d take a Civic (or cobalt) over it any day. (Remember that I didn’t say that the Cobalt won, just said that both cars sucks).

Clearly Toy cares about the Tundra because they just spend so much money building that huge plant for it and developing it. There is TONS of money to be made in this segment so trust me, anyone that knows about the auto industry cars about it..I guess that doesn’t include you

4Runner is bigger than the Trailblazer. I don’t even know which ones of Toy’s SUVs compete with what..Toyota has way too many and they shouldn’t because they don’t sell them

Highlander vs Traverse?? When did I talk about that? Traverse (if its even called that) is not even out yet! Who can you judge a car that doesn’t even exist.

Suburban sells more and didn’t have 500000+ recalls recently. Need I say more? Oh, and it looks wayy better.

Toy vs Corvette? Haha you couldn’t even think of anything to compare to the Corvette. I am surprised you didn’t bring up the Supra or something. But again, LF-A is not out yet. You cannot automatically assume it will beat the Corvette (unless you are a really biased fuk)

“all around a superior car BC it’s a Japanese car” — it is when you say things like that, that I wonder why I am wasting my time with you. By the way, I SAID the Avalon won that one.

Toyota will be #1 in the world when the year is over, but I predict that they will never be #1 in the United States. Toyonda will only go down from here

Camry vs. Malibu- The Malibu will be ignored just like the previous two (check the commercials) Camry has a reputation for build quality and reliability I don’t know what problems you are talking about but either way its superior and the name has been around for over 20 years, not to mention its more attractive. I cant see any Camry owner trading it for a Malibu. Camry, Accord or even Sonata Malibu are good choices for a family car but I cant wait to rent a Malibu

Corolla vs. Cobalt – Cobalt has been recalled for safety issues and is an unsafe unreliable car just like the Cavalier and the majority of domestics. The Corolla has been out since 2001 but it is a bestseller and it was refreshened and it continues to sell. Toyota had redesigned it but the HONDA CIVIC came out and Toyota had to go back to the drawing board. Its basically Japanese vs. Japanese now. The domestics don’t even count.

Tundra vs. Silverado- Who cares lol.

4Runner vs. Tahoe-? You mean 4 Runner vs. Trailblazer lol Good try. I’m not going to waste my time on that one

Highlander vs. Traverse- Highlander is better and is more reliable

Suburban vs. Sequoia- Lets see MILLIONS of GM trucks were recalled for brake issues. Sequoias had a recall for a leak it was less and Toyota has put out better quality for the last 20 years. Toyota is still more reliable and worth more

Toyota vs. Corvette- THE F—ING ROOF FLYS OFF THE VETTE! Lexus LF-A
Avalon vs. Impala- The Impala looks ok but the Avalon looks better has higher resale and is all around a superior car BC it’s a Japanese car

Toyota still # 1

Lets look at some comparisions again
Camry vs Malibu – to be decided when the Bu comes out but so far, this new Camry is horrible & has many issues
Cobalt vs Corolla – both are VERY old, need redesigns
Silverado vs Tundra – Silverado (see MHW’s post)
Equinox vs RAV4 – RAV4 wins (but the Vue beats it)
Tahoe vs 4Runner – Tahoe obviously
Suburban vs Sequiya – Suburban obviously
Corvette vs ??? – lol, Toy makes nothing exciting
Impala vs Avalon I’ll give Toyota this one so Avalon

“Hicks and construction workers buy trucks, not people with families”
How did you determine that?

MHW: If CR doesn’t bow down and worship a toyota, its REALLY bad!

1. Only fullsize that did not receive a 5 star crash test rating.
2. Multiple 5.7 cam shaft failures resulting in engine replacements.
3. Multiple 6-speed transmission failures, some trucks are on their 3rd tranny.
4. Many have reported excessive bed shake over rough terrain.
5. Even the Import Bible Consumer Reports does not reccomend it. (much worse than average reliability)
6. No diesel or 3/4 option
7. Loses the majority of shootouts vs the Silverado.
8. Butt ugly! (personal opinion)
In contrast the new Silverado was the Motor Trend truck of the Year, North American truck of the Year, wins the majority of shootouts its placed in, has had a seamless launch, and most important for me is they have a kick ass diesel tranny combo.

In their pursuit to sell so many cars, Toyota has completely forgotten about why people first took their cars seriously in the 90s. It’s only a matter of time before Toy’s reputation in the public’s eye fails.

GM is just about on Toyota’s level. TODAY (2007) you can go buy either a GM or Toy and in both cases you will have minimum problems with your vehicle. That wasn’t true 10 years ago, but now it seems to be