Comments on: UAW strikes GM

By: BLISS

BLISS — Sat, 29 Sep 2007 23:49:40 +0000

THEY WILL COME TO SOME AGREEMENT

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:06:46 +0000

Yeah.

By: Piablo

Piablo — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 02:16:11 +0000

LOL! Very true. Have you been up there?

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:46:31 +0000

BTW. Syracuse ain’t no town for punks!

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 00:46:09 +0000

You can support the troops without supporting the war. I ‘d have prefered not invading Iraq, but having decided to do so, we should not have done it in a half-assed manner. Probably should’ve (this is where you realize I’l no tree-hugging liberal) nuked that ass.

I say take those ridiculous ROE off the board and get our folks home!

I truly think workers should vote to de-unionize themselves, but ….

By: Piablo

Piablo — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:59:48 +0000

JackJim – I have close friends who worked for New Process Gear in Syracuse, NY. My co-worker’s father worked at the GM plant in Baltimore before it was closed down and now works at the Delaware plant. I have pretty close ties with people who have worked in the factories and under the UAW. I have been told there is required training for the most mundane of tools to ensure proper usage. I have heard about the contract rules where if one guy is out for the day and another fills in, then he gets paid for his normal job as well as the other! I have been forced to read countless studies regarding what makes people happy in their jobs through my MBA study and I can tell you that scripted jobs to the Nth degree is not what makes people happy. With that, if UAW workers are generally happy with their jobs, I stand corrected. But clearly, if they were happy, there wouldn’t be any strikes. There’s a big difference between being thankful for having a job,. and being happy with it. I will give you this though, if my work ethic deteriorated while working for a union, yes, I never had it in the first place.

Again, I’m not trying to bash the union workers. I simply do not support the existence of the UAW. I suppose it’s like the libs who support the troops, but don’t support the war. If the shoe fits…

By: Got Handling?

Got Handling? — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:14:42 +0000

I don’t think Chrysler were selling automobiles until well into C20, I know thatKarl Benz sold his first in 1888 and on this side of the pond Mercedes-Benz’s claim to be the inventors of the modern petrol powered automobile is regarded as incontestible.

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:54:03 +0000

Piablo:
“On the other hand, you have union workers who hate their jobs, hate the people they are working for because they feel they make too much money, who’s only future in the union is to be promoted to working on a different machine across the floor, and who also are trained like monkeys to use brooms and crescent wrenches.”

Where did you get that insight?

“If I worked for a union, I wouldn’t have a good work ethic either” Then, you don’t have one now.

“Toyota on the other hand employs a strategy called Kaizen where the lowly worker is actually in charge of the manufacturing process. They have direct lines of communications to the engineers so when problems are identified on the shop floor they are solved on the shop floor.”
That actually makes sense, and it’s this sort of thinking that would save the Big 3.

“Buy American and screw your fellow AMericans,” deantj, that makes no sense.

By: Piablo

Piablo — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:49:45 +0000

Commodore – Purposeful sabotage versus religious life devotion is certainly an extreme and far fetched. What I explained lays more in the middle of that. If an entire work force is at odds with its employer, chances are they are not working to their full potential. Is that far fetched? Promotions are different in the union. Since everything has to be “fair”, personal performance does not necessarily factor into the equation. Seniority is heavily weighted. Where’s the incentive there to perform?
Toyota on the other hand operates in a way that empowers it’s employees. Same type of work, just done differently. It comes down to HR management. Employees have a future, they have a greater impact, and they have incentive to perform. A $20,000 bonus certainly gets my butt in gear. When was the last time any union worker got any type of bonus?
Now, I have no idea what GM plants out there are non-union and what their capabilities are. If you do, I would love to know. Are they building vehicles? Or are they factories owned by another company manufacturing parts for GM?
I’m calling it the way I see it. I am as red blooded American as they come and I’m not bashing American workers. I am criticising the system that they work in. And to an extent, Deanster is correct. Before you gasp in horror, (I know, I’m gagging myself), hear me out. Everyone complains about the US manufacturing base disappearing and being sent over seas. Our manufacturing base is what created the wealth that the US now enjoys and takes for granted. Buying and selling services to ourselves is simply redistributing money between entities and does not create any wealth. Manufacturing, selling overseas, brings new wealth into this country. How can anyone not expect our manufacturing base to move overseas when we have unions demanding that uneducated workers be paid the same as college graduate engineers? The death from within that Deanster is talking about occurs in the slow death of our manufacturing base. So do you disband the UAW and try to reindoctrinate the workers into a capitalist work system? Do you grant amnesty to illegals in hopes that they create an instant manufacturing base? Unless something changes, yes, it will be a slow death.

By: Deanster

Deanster — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:31:37 +0000

In all seriousness, (sorry Commodore, I didn’t mean that, I’m just playing around), I stand by my comments for a variety of reasons – to see why, skip to the latest GM strike posting (where they reach an agreement) and read it! …to be continued….

By: Deanster

Deanster — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:30:12 +0000

Commodore, here’s how I choose to bash you since you’re familiar with my past comments:

“FUCK YOU AND YOUR WHORE MOTHER. And the drugged up donkey the skank rode in on!”

How’s that for mature? I’m 31, btw.

By: Commodore

Commodore — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:50:09 +0000

Got Handling – your right, it’ll be interesting to see what he says. He is currently busy copying and pasting his last comment on every GM-related article on LLN so he won’t post here again until he is done. And wasn’t the automobile invented by both Daimler and Chrysler (almost independently in the two countries?)

By: Got Handling?

Got Handling? — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 06:36:40 +0000

Nah Commodore, he’ll bash you because you are a posterior passage plundering pederast, and then he’ll probably point out that he never said that GM pays any money to the UAW.
.
Vertical, I’m sorry to disrupt your national fervour, but the automobile was not invented in the USA, it was invented by one of those fiendishly clever Germans, in Germany. You might have heard of his company, a small outfit known as Daimler-Benz.

By: Commodore

Commodore — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:59:51 +0000

Just wondering..how old are you Deanster? The money you spend on an American car goes towards the development of future cars, and the parts and materials of the car you bought, and to paying the workers who assembled the car. GM does NOT pay ANY money to the UAW. GM’s employees may choose to join the union which will then represent them and negotiate on their behalf. NO GM MONEY GOES TO THE UAW. It only goes to the workers, not to the organization itself. Got it?

Secondly, you seem to hate the UAW, I certainly agree with you on that. But I really doubt that the UAW has the power to bring about “the economic downfall of the US”. This strike they are on right now might destroy GM, but it can hardly destroy America. And if you want to support America, it would still be better to buy from a unionized-american company like GM rather than the imports. I am pretty familiar with your past posts, so it will be interesting to see how you will bash me in your next comment because you disagree.

By: Deanster

Deanster — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 05:18:08 +0000

For the record, one more time: the UAW is a communist organization that is the economic downfall of the US. Buying an American car is tantamount to supporting a communist regime that is screwing the country from the inside out.

Buy American and screw your fellow AMericans. No matter what the consequences of GM collapsing, there’s no way it’ll be more expensive than feeding this bottomless pit billions of dollars for the rest of eternity.

By: Commodore

Commodore — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 04:47:16 +0000

Unfortunately, you are mostly right Vertical. With people like 1115 and sunshine that have become devout Japanese car consumers, America’s auto industry might go the way of our consumer electronics industry (how many domestic TVs and DVD players do you have in your house? Just to help you out, look the companies up before you post them because many of them like Olympus and Pioneer sounds VERY american)

By: Vertical

Vertical — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 04:24:54 +0000

At the rate things are going, we will be paying for cars with yen. It’s shameful. The automobile was invented in this country. We dominated the market for years. Vehicles are the #1 consumer product in this country (in the world, in fact). And we are losing it. All due to piss-poor management (which has been much better – especially at GM), and the UAW – which is as completely stubborn, greedy, and ignorant as ever.

By: Commodore

Commodore — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:15:18 +0000

So you are saying that thousands upon thousands of UAW workers purposely mess up when building cars, but non-union Toy workers are very happy with their company so they devote their lives to building the best cars out there? I’m sorry, but I think that is a PRETTY FAR reach.

Also, GM has quite a few non-union plants in the US, more than you would expect. So you think that even those plants produce cars with lower build quality than the comparable US Toy plants?
I doubt it. This is just one of quite a few reasons of why Toyota’s build quality is not any better than GM’s.

By: deutschetouring1337

deutschetouring1337 — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:12:30 +0000

Ok the real Truth is GM wasn’t fully paying into Retiree’s accounts during the 80-90s and it has finally come back to bite GM in the keister. We all know what happend then, we closed a ton of factories and America began outsourcing to Mexico and around the world. GM has been mismanaged and its going to take them a longtime to get back if ever. I

By: Piablo

Piablo — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:36:07 +0000

Commodore – I would say yes, it is the American worker. Reason being, well there’s two different types of workers here. You have the non-unionized worker who is able to be promoted, has ownership in the manufacturing process, is involved in decision making, and is not treated as a mindless retarded slave. Those workers happen to work for Toyota, Honda, Subaru… On the other hand, you have union workers who hate their jobs, hate the people they are working for because they feel they make too much money, who’s only future in the union is to be promoted to working on a different machine across the floor, and who also are trained like monkeys to use brooms and crescent wrenches. There’s a different mentality between the two workers. If I worked for a union, I wouldn’t have a good work ethic either. Of course the problem is the UAW brainwashes them into thinking they are victims of ‘the man’ and the company is there to ass rape them. But the generous and understanding union will be there to protect them and act as the great equalizer between directors and workers. They are one of the largest Marxist groups in the world. Toyota on the other hand employs a strategy called Kaizen where the lowly worker is actually in charge of the manufacturing process. They have direct lines of communications to the engineers so when problems are identified on the shop floor they are solved on the shop floor. If you ask a union worker to do anything above and beyond their contracted job description it immediately is translated into more money. Only in the UAW does a worker feel they are entitled to lifetime benefits when they haven’t even completed a 2 year associates degree.

Where Elvio is mistaken, nobody is blaming Toyota for GM’s troubles. People like me, we just don’t like Toyota save for a few particular vehicles. Ragging on the import wankers is by no means blaming Toyota for anything. He also happens to be mistaken about GM building unreliable cars and trucks. That’s just a flat out nonfactual statement. They do however cost a heck of alot more to build.

By: Commodore

Commodore — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 00:39:22 +0000

Elvio

American UAW workers are not at fault for building quality cars. Toyota uses the same kind of american workers as GM does, except they are not unionized. If american workers are at fault for building low quality cars, than I guess Toyotas such as the Camry that are built in America are also of poor quality

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 00:23:18 +0000

Elvio: I don’t think imports CAN be blamed on this one

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 00:22:13 +0000

Driven: i don’t think that’s enough. i think back in good times, the Union membership should have owned a 30-40 percent share of the company. That way, there’s more incentive to make quality Job one, and get rid of work rules that undermine productivity.

I predict either GM will break the union or UAW will come to its senses about healthcar premiums. I covered a few near-strikes at goodyear, and every time, they lost a little more of their medical benefits, especially the retirees. But the rank-and-file should be loathe to trust upper union or management with its future money

By: Elvio

Elvio — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:55:51 +0000

So people should not blame on imports….blame UAW….it is them who drive up the cost of American’s auto industries…it is them who built unreliable cars and trucks…it is them who try to sink the company and themselves…..so stop blaming the import brands. It is Americans who shot their own feet.

By: 67_L-88

67_L-88 — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:52:25 +0000

if they want job security, wouldn`t working be your best bet. this strike will only hurt GMs image, and scare away potiental customers. or, scare away more customers when they go to the dealership and theres no cars there.

By: 1c3d0g

1c3d0g — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:17:59 +0000

RicardoHead: see? This is the kind of bullsh*t GM has to deal with. And everyone else bitches and moans about them not performing well financially. Well, how the hell can they do that (build awesome vehicles) when they have to support a zillion people each with their own medical expenses, pensions etc.? Huh? Answer me that, bitches, and I’ll show you a green dog. F*cking idiots just don’t get it. If they kill GM, a quarter of a million people or more will lose their jobs, directly or indirectly because of this catastrophe.

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:58:16 +0000

I forgot the best part. If driven into bankruptcy by the UAW, GM will be able to restructure all those agreements and only fund a small part of the pensions, health care and other retiree benefits.

Just as the retired pilots learned all those years ago, the UAW retirees will be left with a minimal amount in retirement. And current workers will get virtually nothing when they retire – if their jobs last that long.

It should make the current workers on strike happy to know their demands now will mean nothing for them when they retire. Think Social Security… you are paying in now and it wont be there for you when you retire. Your GM health care and pension will be the same way in 15 years & you only have yourself to blame.

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:48:40 +0000

My prediction on how this will end (& it will end shortly): GM will partially fund VEBA and the UAW will get agreements that GM will continue production of new cars/trucks in the numerous, costly UAW plants. For example keeping all of the 5 US assembly plants dedicated to full sized pickups and SUVs even though that market is softening and demand is down.

The problem is keeping too many plants, all being costly US UAW plants means GM will continue to be in a bad financial situation. In order to do right by shareholders GM will need to become lax on quality materials to make up for keeping all those costly plants open & UAW workers in jobs.

In the end it will be the customer that suffers by getting an inferior product and GM will continue to loose market share.

Depending on the length of this next UAW contract GM may be in worse financial situation years from now or they will declare bankruptcy before the decade is over. All due to keeping open UAW plants even though demand doesnt warrant the need for all those costly plants.

By: Commodore

Commodore — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:28:34 +0000

sik59rt
No, GM cannot come to a halfway point with them because GM needs to make its more competitive against Toyota. As I said, Toyota has a BIG competitive advantage over the Big 3 and GM needs to close that gap. Trust me, GM does not want a strike because they are losing billions right now. Also, this strike won’t (hopefully) last long. The UAW president called the strike in order to scare GM into signing a few of their last ridiculous remands, because the two sides are close to an agreement. He used it as kind of a final push to get what the UAW wants. In other words, it might not have been a last resort. GM is not doing well finacially right now, so the workers have to understand that. Lastly, a strike would not be beneficial to workers in the wrong run because what they are doing right now could potentially drive GM to bankrupcy (not probable, but still possible). They might just lose their jobs over this because GM could choose to offshore more labor after seeing what the union chose to do.

By: RicardoHead

RicardoHead — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:18:00 +0000

400horseSS, here’s a thought:….

….. since you are striking for retirees benefits, why don’t you and your buddies
….. instead go to work today and contribute 100% of your earnings to the UAW
….. retirees? That would be showing true “brotherhood,” right?

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:09:00 +0000

400Horse, I think most people understand you arent striking for more pay. But the UAW does want to keep a guaranteed job and lifetime health care. That just isnt realistic in todays world or even the world as we knew it 15 years ago. There are no guaranteed jobs in life and lifetime health care is a ridiculous perk that most CEOs dont even get after decades of running a company.

Why should tens of thousands (or is it hundreds of thousands) of former employees get that benefit from a company? If the UAW wants to supply health care for life they can take some of that money they skim of the top (look up how many UAW leaders are caught stealing from the members) and put it toward a fund for former GM employee universal health care.

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:01:24 +0000

400HorseSS, CNN confirmed with GM and UAW spokespersons that job security is the major sticking point although there are other issues. If you are striking for retiree benefits then why is the major sticking point job security – a benefit for exiting employees? Maybe someone better tell your UAW negotiators what they are striking for. I think they lost sight of that when they were adding up how much money they can collect in dues if they keep everyone working until GM declares chapter 11.

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:55:32 +0000

JJT, according to GMs annual report stock options are held by more than 53,000 GM employees. This is yet another perk of working for GM on top of a guaranteed job, lifetime health care and above average wages. I’m sure GM will gladly give workers more stock options if they will give in on guaranteed jobs, agree to a reduction in wages or give up lifetime health care.

By: sik59rt

sik59rt — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:41:54 +0000

driven…i dont seem to remember me saying Hoffa had anything to do with the UAW. and my thoughts about what they want is not off. i stated facts from what this article said and what other articles have said. this strike is for the union member’s benefits and the retired members’ benefits, which i stated already. and no i dont get all my info from movies like Hoffa…but i do get it from Gung Ho. Michael Keaton knew what was up

By: 400horseSS

400horseSS — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:03:42 +0000

we are not striking for pay we are striking for retirees benefits

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:43:13 +0000

R-Head: no, but the suggustion was that people should ONLY buy GM cars, delaying their purchase until their local GM dealer finally has inventory. Not gonna happen.

Driven: when times were good, management shouldv’e given the UAW stock. Then, they’d have less of an adversarial relationship than they do now

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:23:40 +0000

Ricardo & 67_L-88, both good ideas. UAW and its workers are so far out of touch with reality because the Big3 has given into their demands for far too long. Let the UAW workers look for new jobs & they will soon realize how great they had it. Maybe its the lack of higher education that holding these UAW workers back from understanding they can cut their benefits in half and still be better off with the Big3 than anywhere else.

CNN still says the major sticking point is job security. Why does the UAW think they deserve jobs even if the company is struggling. The UAW claims GM isnt working with them to resolve the contract disput. It sounds like the other way around. The UAW isnt working with GM to help the company stay in business. If the UAW workers want job security they should try to find it somewhere else.

By: RicardoHead

RicardoHead — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:16:34 +0000

Shipping costs may even be lower if they used non-union truckers after breaking the UAW.

By: 67_L-88

67_L-88 — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:50:35 +0000

400 horse SS, how can you strike getting $50,000 a year, health benefits, all on a high school education. Were i come from, Canada, that’s a good wage for a college graduate. (Outside of Alberta, with the Oil boom.) Perhaps Gm should move more of it’s plants to canada, and refuse to unionize them. They could pay the same wages,(which is the same cause the dollar is on par now.) Their shipping costs wouldn’t even be that much higher if they kept in in southern canada.

By: Piablo

Piablo — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:03:45 +0000

Good article Deanster. I’ve been reading a few others as well and it’s amazing how the media is making the UAW out to be victims. The only comment from GM is “…we’re disappointed…”. I find it pretty hard to believe that is the only thing they have to say. Libs today… between Columbia College kids cheering on Ahmadinejad and the media being so pro social-ism, I really don’t see a bright future ahead of us.

On a good note, I am sure Michael Moore is busy at work producing his docufarce, “Rick and Me”.

By: RicardoHead

RicardoHead — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:55:52 +0000

Driven, GM needs to do to the UAW what Reagan did to the striking Air Traffic Controllers — just nuke them all and write it off. I was pretty young then but recall how it was predicted that we’d never get a plane off the ground again without union air traffic controllers to show the way. Instead Reagan showed them the way, and we are a better country for it.

By: RicardoHead

RicardoHead — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:52:22 +0000

JJT, you really think a dealer is gonna suggest that people don’t buy cars?

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:28:20 +0000

“The UAW should bear in mind that it is a lot easier for car buyers to switch from GM to Toyota”
Comment by Got Handling?
You are right and this has already started as more than half of the vehicles bought in the US are imports. But the UAW doesnt care. The UAW needs to get as much as possible from GM so it can continue to line the pockets of the Union leaders.

Ricardo, over the years UAW has forced GM into giving workers above average wages, unbelievably good health care FOR LIFE, great pensions and job security (you cant be fired). Its time the UAW workers wake up to the real world or get replaced.

Wouldn’t it be great if GM reworked the supply chain to keep the Canadian plants working overtime to produce a decent amount of cars. Then GM could start hiring in the US for new workers making an industry average base salary with basic benefits. Those on the picket lines will only get the picture after their jobs are long gone to people willing & wanting to work for reasonable compensation. Best thing is the jobs dont have to leave the US to allow GM to compete. The UAW workers just need to be replaced by non-union, reasonably compensated persons.

By: jackjimturkey

jackjimturkey — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:13:27 +0000

Dealer told me yesterday: best thing for the public to do, is keep buying cars. Edmunds says a long strike could screw customers. But if there’s no supply, customes will just go on to Ford or whomever. This strike needs to be ended as soon as possible

By: Driven

Driven — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:06:58 +0000

skit59rt, you should do some research on the subject before you post. Your thoughts of what the UAW and GM want is a little off. Also, Hoffa & the Teamsters are not the UAW. I am unsure of Hoffas role in this strike other than the Teamsters will honor the UAW picket lines.

Furthermore, James P. Hoffa is James R. “Jimmy” Hoffas son and James P is still alive. I suggest getting your union information from more than the movie Hoffa. James P. Hoffa is the current President of the Intl Brotherhood of Teamsters.