GM had milked the US market with mediocre product, and by 1980, the market had enough
GM didn’t see this shift, because it moved like an erosion, not a definite shift

Customers are like girls
They don’t tell you they are leaving, then leave to find something better
They think they want to leave
They find what they want
And are gone for months before they let you know

GM was the last to know their market, or their market had left
It took them 10 years to make competitive crossovers after Rav4 came out!
They didn’t even know what they didn’t know
DrFill

But now I think you might be missing something. Gm in the 80’s knew their market, but they didn’t care to make a good car.

For example, one of my first cars that I resold the same year to make some money on, an 88′ Sunbird GT Convertible. This was just a few years ago, it needed some paint work and TLC. I bet they knew who they were marketing it too, kids that need a fairly affordable but fun car. Yeah, it was a quick car, turbo and all! But everything else was total junk. Door panels were all snap in. The rear speakers were just panels that weren’t even recessed into the side, just screw on. A large sticker covered the center dash, and was beginning to peel off and color. The horn paddles in the center of the steering wheel were molded from one piece of cheap plastic, hit them too hard and they brake! Electronic buttons break easily, the weird little date planner things were so hard to turn you needed a crow bar to set them! Rubber side molding peels off easily, and insulation comes through the holes where the seatbelts go due to the seatbelts rubbing against it. Such elementary things.

My point is, after 15 years the car was showing it’s true side, the low quality piece of shlt they built it as. They knew their demographic, they knew how to build up through a persons life different vehicles to suit them, and I know they knew how to build a good car… but the same problem we come to… they didn’t care!

Toyota has to avoid the same pitfalls, and work on building better cars, everyday
And eliminate weaknesses.
They seem to be more interested in making fun cars (Ironman Tundra, Subaru coupe, LF-A)
That is progress.
DrFill

It’s called rape, if any of you didn’t know.

DrFill- Trying to sell more cars and top the sales charts is what got GM into the mess they are in right now. I think maybe auto makers should change their goals to “make enough good, quality vehicles to turn a good profit”.

If Hyundai is making the best products, you and they sure are keeping it hush-hush
Your core is your strength
Hyundai needs to hit the gym, and get rid of it’s beer belly

Hyundai hasn’t built a Supra yet
Ford makes a better Hyundai Coupe
Those two were made for each other

Looks like you are lost in their smoke screen
It happens
DrFill

“The U.S. government will likely forgive the $19.4 billion already loaned to the Michigan automaker.” Everybody should forgive everything owed by everybody. This is dumb.

Go Saab: “So why didn’t they bankrupt it months ago instead of losing all this money on life support?” good question. I’d have asked the question of “how much do you need to sink or swim on your own?’

johnnycanuck: “‘When this 30 billion runs out …’” The stocking stocking needs to be burned.

DrFill: “Why would a good small car to take on Civic and Corolla? Seems like a good small car would be gunning for the Mazda3 and Focus.

And what would a Toyota exec no about killing redundant models?

teahead: “Well…better than bailing out AIG at the tune of $180B!” Yes. A company that mokes nothing and does nothing.

Sly Raskal: “If there’s anything that this economic downturn has taught me is that the irresponsible organizations and people are the ones that are gaining from this mess while the responsible folks are shafted.” You’re rightt.

Fill: “I don’t sweat Hyundai. When they make a better Civic/Corolla/Camry/Accord, I’ll worry.” Wake up! Hyundai also makes a better rav4, Pilot and Avalon … Only thing Honda has is the Oddessy.
Toyota never built a Genesis Coupe. Just forget it.

“Honda and Toyota will still remain your first two choices in cars, hybrids, and crossovers for the forseeable future.” Who’s first to choices, the NiNas?

parts guy: “I know Honda and Toyota make good vehicles – as do several other automakers.” True, though you’re really stretching it.

Hyundai and Ford, despite the praises of JD Power and Consumer Report, actually make better Vehicles than toyonda, though the Accord/”TL” is better than the Fusion and Sonata, and the Oddessy is the second-best minivan.

My experience with owning Toyonda products is why I drive GM now.

leftwingagenda: “i also think you’re underestimating hyundai a bit, they have made a lot of smart moves as of late and are putting out quality products while undercutting the competition on price…” hear, Hear!

Extra low brand equity
Owning a Hyundai or Ford is about as appealing as owning the TV rights to the next Republican National Convention
This can take years to fix. Could take decades. Might never happen.

If you look closely at Hyundai’s sales, they havent shown a YTY increase since 2003-4, even though their lineup has DOUBLE the vehicles it had 6 years ago.

Ford has lost 3-400k unit sales of it’s F-150 in the last 7 years. That’s almost 40%. The competition is much better, and mediocre trucks that get 13 MPG, and struggle with any load over 6500lbs. don’t move off the lot like they used to.

Try as they might, selling 15k Genesis sedans annually is no reason to bust out the Moet, and Sonata/Elantra sales have tanked

Both companies have a lot of work ahead of them. Perception is reality. Some things never change
DrFill

They both have vehicles that are highly rated on JD Power and Consumer Reports publications, and they are both better values compared to the Toyonda vehicles, thanks to many years of sheeple flocking to the Toyonda store to buy whatever is available at transaction prices that have been higher than competing models. Factor in dealer sales and service people that are willing to work to close a sale or resolve an issue and I believe you will see both Ford and Hyundai benefit from the situation. My experiences in each of these dealerships – and with owning Toyonda products – backs this up.

I believe there are many who are afraid of Hyundai right now. While they still market vehicles copied from everyone else’s best features (lots of Toyota in there designs inside and out), they continue to learn at a fast pace, and I haven’t spoken to very many unhappy Hyundai owners lately.

One, GM’s biggest problem is they make REALLY GOOD vehicles now! They have the best lineup going in the business, IMO. It is not really close either. Versatile, sporty, trendy, stylish, they have your ride

The problem is Americans don’t believe in GM anymore. They don’t want to buy another GM product. The boy who cried wolf. Their brand equity is so low you can’t scrap it off the road

I don’t sweat Hyundai. When they make a better Civic/Corolla/Camry/Accord, I’ll worry.

Toyota stopped building Genesis Coupes because there is no money in it, with no Pony-car heritage to work from.

Don’t let Hyundai fool you!
Hyundai is a third wheel, just like Nissan. Fortunately for them, with the demise of the domestics, being second-rate is a huge ballpark to play in. Plenty of room for growth! Low expectations, but upside

Honda and Toyota will still remain your first two choices in cars, hybrids, and crossovers for the forseeable future

DrFill

“They don’t want to admit that the companies, not the economy, have killed the domestic auto market, and handed it over to anybody else who wants it
(Even Hyundai has almost 8% of the market)
They see the potential of GM, which is significant”

is especially poignant. Within the ___ of what is now GM, lays the potential of a great car company. The BIG IF now is whether management and the new organizational structure have the ability to execute! Ten years ago GM’s market share was ~34-35%; I guesstimated last fall that GM’s market share would be in the 12-15% range after a Bk. Currently, as you state 17%, I can see it bottoming at 10% – don’t laugh – it could get there easily. They have to maintain control, whether actual majority ownership is irrelevant, of Opel and GM Europe and SA. If not they are a regional player that won’t last 5 years and this would be all for naught.

DB9

PS. How this is all going to turnout… well…

PS. to the PS. Had a Genesis coupe for a day, my view, a car GM, Nissan and Toyota should’ve built;-) They’re 80% there on 22k:-) Sound familiar… Once upon a time…

Bailing them out negates the principles of free market and capitalism.

Sure you can argue that GM, Chrysler, AIG become too integrated into the economic structure of the U.S., but if people willingly engaged in conducting business with these organizations, that’s their fault, not the governments.

The only way capitalism survives is if the companies that are weak are allowed to fail to allow the stronger companies to rise up. Honda and Toyota have been hurt by the struggling economy as well, sure they are in a better position than the domestics but why should the domestics be the only ones to gain from free money. Honda, Toyota and countless other brands build cars in the U.S. and provide jobs to the American public all without paying absurdly high union wages.

If there’s anything that this economic downturn has taught me is that the irresponsible organizations and people are the ones that are gaining from this mess while the responsible folks are shafted.

I can honestly say I will NEVER buy a GM or Chrysler product in the future, no matter how awesome or reliable their vehicle may be. Ford on the other hand I gotta hand it to them, they not only decided NOT to take money from the government, but stepped up and begun fixing their problems on their own, as a business in a capitalistic society should. They managed to reduce their debt and were able to stay in business without costing the tax payers any heartache.

Chrysler, you suck!
GM, you suck even more!

It’s ridiculous. GM is a giant black hole.

Obama is guilty of betting on a big GM comback 10 years down the road
A better bet than our continued investment in Iraq? Yes
But VERY IFFY!

I am an Obamamaniac, but this is ONLY a good investment if the remaining “Good” GM (Chevy, Caddy, GMC, Buick), which currently has about 17% of the market, and is losing money hand over fist, can get back to 25% in 10 years

10 years ago, when that’s where GM’s share was, bankruptcy wasn’t the word of the days. They were making a small profit, which they obviously didn’t save

I, personally, am not comfortable with Ford being the lone domestic maker. That’s like having QVC be the last TV station. You might as well not have a domestic maker

If Obama can get us out of Iraq next year, fix the economy, and still nurse GM back from it’s coma, fine. But I am against throwing more money at this problem.

GM’s problem is still self-made, the economy just accelerated it’s eventual demise

What I would do, is give them an out to get rid of the bad franchisee contracts, so they can be smaller and more efficient at selling cars, and give them some money to build good small cars to take on Civic and Corolla, and keep the price of the Volt down below $25k.

Broker a deal with the UAW and the bondholders, like a 5-year Collective Bargaining agreement, and move GM forward 5 years at a time

These things are hard to do with a company of this size, but writing them checks is not going to solve the problem. They need a Daddy to run the business for them for the next 5-10 years. Not Obama, but a new regime that answers to the gubmint, and might know how to rebuild a dead company

In other words, go buy a Toyota exec, and have him show you how to start from scratch and build a company from Corolla up. Kill redundant models. Build an efficient inventory supply system. Build brand equity. Etc
DrFill